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Go Back   SailNet Community > Out There > Cruising & Liveaboard Forum > Production Boats and the Limits
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Thread: Production Boats and the Limits Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
1 Hour Ago 07:10 AM
chall03
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

There is silliness and extreme gesturing on both sides in the threads on CF and previously on here, but amongst it all Smack has raised an interesting question.

To elimate the silliness, let me state first that I believe and would like to think there is some general agreement that:

- All boats are compromises, there is no perfect boat.
-Hunters, Bavaria's, Beneteau's etc (the so called production boats) can and do cross oceans regularly without issue.
-Hallberg Rassy, Hylas, Morris, Oyster, Najad etc (so called 'bluewater' boats) are built at a higher price point and so are arguably 'better' and stronger built. The design choices on these boats are also generally more geared toward the Bluewater set( more tankage, passage friendly layouts, accessibility of systems. They may sail better or be easier to sail in the range of conditions in a circumnavigation, they would probably be more sea kindly.

So then my real world hypothetical question is that I want to purchase a 40-45ft monohull boat for a circumnavigation. Let's say my budget is about 225k with say 50-60k to update.( US $ is fine).

At this price I could buy a near new Bene/Hunter/Bavaria or Catalina or I could also buy a 1996 Hallberg Rassy 42f or a 1989 Stevens 47 or similar.

What is the 'safer' boat?

The newer lighter built boat would be 'ready to go' with some( decent) blue water and safety equipment and some change leftover but it would only ever be as strong as it is. Or the 20- 25 year old 'bluewater' boat with 25 year old chainplates, keel bolts, rudder etc.

Now with the Bluewater boats you could pretend that you get all this inspected and fixed before you go, but in the real world who does all of this? Can it be done satisfactorily in this budget, how do you know you haven't missed something?

As we have gone through the fun of a part refit with our current boat, I can say it sucks. It stops you sailing and makes you want to take up golf.

Having said that I would still for us lean towards buying a 1990's Hallberg Rassy. However I am starting to examine more closely why this is..........
6 Hours Ago 02:25 AM
JonEisberg
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post

Actually, I think you nailed the adjective when it comes to the Morris - "doughty". I mean, I'm sure she's comfortable in heavy weather, but...you also have to sail her the rest of the time too.

Uhhh, I don't think that word means what you think it means... Perhaps you guys are thinking of "dowdy", instead? :-)

In any event, I'm guessing the choice of upholstery was the owner's, and not the builder's...

But if you mean to ascribe such an adjective to the sailing qualities of the boats of the Morris RS Series, you are obviously unfamiliar with their bloodline...

The boat that started the RS Series was the 48 REINDEER, the Chuck Paine design commissioned by the legendary cruising and racing yachtsman E. Newbold Smith. (His book about his circumnavigation of Spitsbergen in the 70's, DOWN DENMARK STRAIT, is one of my alltime favorites)...

Quote:
Every now and then, the stars line up just right and a truly remarkable boat comes on the scene that seems to be enhanced by its compromises, instead of being reduced by them. Such is the new custom sloop Reindeer that Chuck Paine designed and Tom Morris built for longtime high-latitude voyager Newbold Smith, a design that is the basis for the new semi-custom Morris 48.6.

The client was the driving force here, for Smith is a veteran buoy and offshore racer, CCA member and noted cruising sailor. His book Down Denmark Strait, relating a high-latitude cruise he made 15 years ago on an earlier Reindeer is a classic sea tale told in the matter-of-fact tone of an truly experienced blue water sailor. He has sailed everywhere and raced against the best skippers afloat for nearly four decades.

It goes without saying, then, that Newbold Smith had a good idea of what he required in his new 48-footer. The boat had to be light and fast enough to win drifting matches around the buoys in Chesapeake Bay. It had to be seakindly and fast enough to conquer IMS racing and cruiser/racer divisions in offshore event like the Newport-Bermuda Race, Halifax Race and Transatlantic Race. It had to be strong enough to survive a crunch with an iceberg — indicating a plan for more high-latitude cruising. And it had to be comfortable enough for Smith and his family to live aboard for extended periods while cruising in Europe and the Caribbean.

A tall order — requiring exacting compromises between sailing performance and cruising amenities.

The boat that Chuck Paine drew for Smith, incorporating all of the above and more, is elegant in its simplicity on deck and comfortable and beautifully laid out belowdecks. The boat is a real head-turner. Every detail of the design reminds us of the many sea miles Smith has sailed and the vast experience Paine has creating good, seakindly offshore boats.

...

The hull is long and lean and light. Because Smith will be racing under a variety of rules, the only approach was to make the boat as fast as possible in a wide range of conditions, without making specific concession for the IMS, PHRF, or Americap formulas. Thus the waterline is long and the overhangs short, the hull shallow and fairly flat under the water, and the keel and rudder have high-aspect profiles that will produce a lot of lift with as little drag as possible. Yet part of the cruising compromise has been to keep the draft to eight feet, deep by conventional cruising standards, but far less than the 10 or 11 feet you might find in a flat out racing machine.

Reindeer’s numbers indicate that she will be fast on all points of sail and will be able to maintain very high averages on long offshore runs. With a displacement of 22,217 pounds on a waterline of 41 feet, 8 inches, giving a Displacement/Length Ratio of 137, the boat is no ultralight sled. She was conceived as a capable seaboat, and her displacement — light by cruising boat standards — is very solid when compared to stripped-out racers like the ID 48s that have become popular in the past few years.

Ľ Morris 48.6: Reindeer Games
Most recently, REINDEER finished 3rd in her class in last summer's Bermuda race, behind a Swan 45, and a Swan 56... Inexplicably, there were no Hunters among the 164 boat fleet... :-)

The 45 was the next Paine design to follow in Morris' RS Series, I believe FIREFLY was the first to be built... Obviously, another stodgy, "dowdy" offering from Paine & Morris, good for little else but heavy weather sailing:

Quote:
Cuyler Morris and family aboard Morris 45 FIREFLY dominated their class at the 2007 Antigua Race Week. FIREFLY swept the five race series and came away 1st in the Cruising I Division and 3rd Overall in the fleet of more than 200 boats. Firefly earned line honors the last day.

With easterly breezes of 12- to 16-knots on the water and clear skies overhead, the 40th running of Stanford Antigua Sailing Week held April 29-May 4 attracted a truly international fleet of nearly 200 yachts of all sizes and descriptions. The conditions proved to be more than perfect for Cuyler Morris and wife Cindy and kids Sam, Sofia and Thomas. The Morris Family is enjoying a week of racing sandwiched between a winter-long Caribbean cruise. And they’re doing it in style. With the kids on the rail and the bimini up for sun protection, the crew ignored pleas from many skippers in their 16-boat Class to slow Firefly down or to take the kids in to the harbor for ice cream.

Cuyler Morris and Family Dominate Antigua Race Week Places 3rd Overall - ALL AT SEA
Undoubtedly, the latest 48 GT, with her extra tall carbon fiber rig, a SA/D ratio of 19.5, will prove to be even more of a dog than her predecessors... Hunter 49s will be sailing circles around her for sport... :-)
7 Hours Ago 12:54 AM
jerryrlitton
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Dude, when you can see the panoramic view out those windows sitting down, you then need to be a freakin' midget to stand-up in the damn thing. Trade offs. Pffft.

That Hunter looks sweet. As does this Jeanneau 54:



Look at how well that purse fits on the spacious nav table!

These boats make that Morris look...sad. Especially sad when the Master has to do the cooking.
y

I don't see an over abundance of hand holds. Maybe it is an ICW affair.
8 Hours Ago 12:48 AM
smackdaddy
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exile1 View Post
I was relieved to see you're as surprised as I was Smack. I didn't realize Hunter's came standard with chainplates, but were only included if ordered with the "bluewater" package. In fact, I always thought the only standard item on a new Hunter was the flat screen TV with a video of Morris' sailing around. Ah well, live & learn I suppose.

In an effort to avoid another personal nasty-gram from Don, can someone advise whether I'd be guilty of Morris-bashing if I divulged that I really don't care for those doughty looking blue & white salon cushions on their new 48? Since I'm only a newbie poster on SN, I don't wanna come across as being insensitive and start off on the wrong foot.
Don't sweat it. Insensitive is a-okay around here. We are sailors after all.

Actually, I think you nailed the adjective when it comes to the Morris - "doughty". I mean, I'm sure she's comfortable in heavy weather, but...you also have to sail her the rest of the time too.

8 Hours Ago 12:44 AM
smackdaddy
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
BTW, having to step up to the level of a dinette or settee is not all that uncommon, one sees quite a bit of that on motoryachts, where such a 'split level' often allows tucking in a stateroom or engine room space beneath... But if you can't handle it, looks like you'll have to cross the Oyster 88 off your list... :-)


Oysters were never on my list. I'm just not a fan.
9 Hours Ago 10:55 PM
smackdaddy
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Well, speaking of "tricky", and ergonomic features that might be problematic when one is roaring drunk, I doubt any builder will ever top this legendary companionway Fun House ladder from Hunter...

:-)

Okay - I TOTALLY agree with you on that. I remember seeing that goofy-ass spiral-staircase-on-a-boat! before - and it is undeniably the stupidest feature I've seen on a sailboat in a LONG time (besides a full keel of course).

This is what we call in the design world a "punt".

Ex - I'm glad you appreciate my deep insight in the REAL problems with so-called "blue water boats".
10 Hours Ago 10:31 PM
Exile1
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
I do like the swept-back spreaders on that Morris. And carbon rig and rudder? Nice.

I watched the video and see how you get the standing room - the walkthrough between the settees is lowered. Tricky. So you have to climb up to get into the settee? Very bad setup for when you're roaring drunk. You hit your head when you stand up from dinner, then fall down the step into that goofy swivel seat? And due to the nice, airy windows, everyone in the anchorage gets to see the whole thing? No thank you, Mr. Morris.
Now this is the most insightful critique of the layout of a new boat I've read to date. I don't mind the roaring drunk/hitting my head/falling down the step program since that would just remind me of being home. But windows that allow the entire anchorage to witness it?! Screw that!! I'm not taking any chances -- ALL Morris' are definitely off the list!
10 Hours Ago 10:29 PM
JonEisberg
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post

I watched the video and see how you get the standing room - the walkthrough between the settees is lowered. Tricky. So you have to climb up to get into the settee? Very bad setup for when you're roaring drunk.
Well, speaking of "tricky", and ergonomic features that might be problematic when one is roaring drunk, I doubt any builder will ever top this legendary companionway Fun House ladder from Hunter...

:-)




BTW, having to step up to the level of a dinette or settee is not all that uncommon, one sees quite a bit of that on motoryachts, where such a 'split level' often allows tucking in a stateroom or engine room space beneath... But if you can't handle it, looks like you'll have to cross the Oyster 88 off your list... :-)


10 Hours Ago 10:26 PM
Exile1
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Holy crap - those are chain plates?!?!?!?
I was relieved to see you're as surprised as I was Smack. I didn't realize Hunter's came standard with chainplates, but were only included if ordered with the "bluewater" package. In fact, I always thought the only standard item on a new Hunter was the flat screen TV with a video of Morris' sailing around. Ah well, live & learn I suppose.

In an effort to avoid another personal nasty-gram from Don, can someone advise whether I'd be guilty of Morris-bashing if I divulged that I really don't care for those doughty looking blue & white salon cushions on their new 48? Since I'm only a newbie poster on SN, I don't wanna come across as being insensitive and start off on the wrong foot.
11 Hours Ago 09:26 PM
smackdaddy
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

I do like the swept-back spreaders on that Morris. And carbon rig and rudder? Nice.

I watched the video and see how you get the standing room - the walkthrough between the settees is lowered. Tricky. So you have to climb up to get into the settee? Very bad setup for when you're roaring drunk. You hit your head when you stand up from dinner, then fall down the step into that goofy swivel seat? And due to the nice, airy windows, everyone in the anchorage gets to see the whole thing? No thank you, Mr. Morris.
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