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Rallies Gone Wrong

128K views 960 replies 76 participants last post by  xort 
#1 ·
#120 · (Edited)
"A pan Pan is used to signify that there is an urgency on board a boat, ship, aircraft, or other vehicle but that, for the time being at least, there is no immediate danger to anyone's life or to the vessel itself.
This is referred to as a state of urgency.
This is distinct from a Mayday call, which means that there is imminent danger to life or to the continued viability of the vessel itself"

A sailboat loses the auxiliary engine and a Mayday is issued.

Another one issues a Mayday because had lost the engine and the Genoa.

Another issues a Mayday, two C 130 are deployed and find nothing in the Area. Another sailboat says to them that there is no problem with the boat that deployed the Epirb.

Another issues a Mayday because the boat had lost the mast and is taking water. When the c 130 arrives there a crew member says that everything is alright. No Injuries and they are motoring to port.

Another issues a Mayday because they were sick and the boat was making water. A C 130 is deployed plus an helicopter that rescues 4 that are seasick. When arriving they refuse medical treatment. There are notices (that need confirmation) that the boat is afloat. Let's wait some days to see if the boat is salvaged. The crew did not report any malfunction with the boat besides the boat "taking water".

At first I thought that the definition regarding a mayday was different in Europe and in the States, but apparently it is not. I can only conclude that many Maydays are been issued in situations that call for a Pan Pan and never for a Mayday.

By the content of this thread It also seems to me that many of the "real" sailors on sailnet don't know in what conditions a Mayday can or should be issued.
 
#123 ·
I have read through this whole thread and in all the finger pointing and blaming weak/scared crews boats not ready for the voyage and all, not one person has gotten the facts right. I love how people are so quick the judge others when they do not have a clue as to the facts. I have listened to these boats everyday on the SSB. I have heard the distress calls as they came in. I have a good friend on one of the boats towed in. So I will summarize.

First boat down a Cartalina 54? catamaran, lost mast, made it back in under their own power. Distress call but refused help just wanted CG aware.

Second boat down Braveheart. Injury broken arm. Distress call but made it in under their own after they found it unsafe for injured crew transfer.

Third boat down Alden 54 ketch, lost rudder, was towed to Chesapeake after drifting for 2 days.

Fourth boat down, Morgen 41 Outisland, Taking on water (beyond what pumps could keep up with), Bulkheads coming apart, severely sick crew. Crew of 4 air lifted to Elizabeth City

Fifth boat down, Hans Christen 38, lost mast, vessel still underway under their own power to Norfolk, No assistance given. Reported in this evening all is well aboard.

Sixth boat down, Catalina 42, lost rudder, waited 3 days for tow should be back in this evening. (I personally spoke with this skipper while at sea and he simply was not equipped for makeshift repairs.)

Seventh boat down Catalina 38, lost steering and engine. tried to make Bermuda but had to give up with no help from private tow (their first choice) They were advised to abandon by USCG because of worsening weather condition and little hope of other help. 3 crew air lifted today to Elizabeth city. (so they tried for 3 days to make a go of it)

Lastly Aurora had a false alarm on their EPIRB, Capt. admitted mistake while checking gear. No assistance needed however a plane was sent to their location before the mistake was found.

So 2 boats had air rescues only 1 with sick crew and they were breaking up. Second air lift at the assistance of CG as there was little hope for anything else.

2 boats towed back due to no steering.

The fleet left knowing a cold front was to pass but it was supposed to pass fast and then good conditions, Instead it stalled and the fleet was stuck in the stream with 20-25. The problems came in the squalls with 30-40 against the stream.

I do not think the skippers did that bad if anything maybe they were not fully prepared to do jury rigs and make emergency repairs.

At least now this thread can have some real facts to work with. For those that belittle those out there claiming they were just seasick you can see now there was more to it. Until you have been there maybe we should not be so quick to judge.
 
#126 ·
I have read through this whole thread and in all the finger pointing and blaming weak/scared crews boats not ready for the voyage and all, not one person has gotten the facts right. I love how people are so quick the judge others when they do not have a clue as to the facts. I have listened to these boats everyday on the SSB. I have heard the distress calls as they came in. I have a good friend on one of the boats towed in. So I will summarize.

First boat down a Cartalina 54? catamaran, lost mast, made it back in under their own power. Distress call but refused help just wanted CG aware.

Second boat down Braveheart. Injury broken arm. Distress call but made it in under their own after they found it unsafe for injured crew transfer.

Third boat down Alden 54 ketch, lost rudder, was towed to Chesapeake after drifting for 2 days.

Fourth boat down, Morgen 41 Outisland, Taking on water (beyond what pumps could keep up with), Bulkheads coming apart, severely sick crew. Crew of 4 air lifted to Elizabeth City

Fifth boat down, Hans Christen 38, lost mast, vessel still underway under their own power to Norfolk, No assistance given. Reported in this evening all is well aboard.

Sixth boat down, Catalina 42, lost rudder, waited 3 days for tow should be back in this evening. (I personally spoke with this skipper while at sea and he simply was not equipped for makeshift repairs.)

Seventh boat down Catalina 38, lost steering and engine. tried to make Bermuda but had to give up with no help from private tow (their first choice) They were advised to abandon by USCG because of worsening weather condition and little hope of other help. 3 crew air lifted today to Elizabeth city. (so they tried for 3 days to make a go of it)

Lastly Aurora had a false alarm on their EPIRB, Capt. admitted mistake while checking gear. No assistance needed however a plane was sent to their location before the mistake was found.

So 2 boats had air rescues only 1 with sick crew and they were breaking up. Second air lift at the assistance of CG as there was little hope for anything else.

2 boats towed back due to no steering.

The fleet left knowing a cold front was to pass but it was supposed to pass fast and then good conditions, Instead it stalled and the fleet was stuck in the stream with 20-25. The problems came in the squalls with 30-40 against the stream.

I do not think the skippers did that bad if anything maybe they were not fully prepared to do jury rigs and make emergency repairs.

At least now this thread can have some real facts to work with. For those that belittle those out there claiming they were just seasick you can see now there was more to it. Until you have been there maybe we should not be so quick to judge.
Thank you for the info. It's good to have a source besides the non-nautical media. Your friend OK?
 
#127 ·
Yes he is fine thanks, a bit bruised and dehydrated but safe. Oh and forgot to mention there was boat that turned back in the first 24 hours due a sick crew. Felt it best not to take chances. Also should mention a big thanks to the Navy and CG personal for all their efforts to help those in need. Not just in this rally but everyday.
 
#129 ·
A heartfelt THANK YOU! to all our service folk, past and present.

 
#146 ·
Can you cite where the organizers of the Salty Dawg Rally have ever cited an argument touting 'safety in numbers'? Who is fostering such a perception, precisely?[/QUOTE]

Some Nancy's want to believe this is the case in rally's....Group think gone wrong again. The sea wins again.
 
#147 ·
I don't understand the dismissive nature of some of the posts on this thread. It appears people aren't allowed to comment or discuss unless they meet certain metrics gained by experience. Who decides what these metrics are? Why can't a day sailor who only sails on Flat Calm Lake come up with an original point or idea relevant to the topic at hand.

Then there is the 'you weren't there' types. It appears unless you were in those conditions, at that time, in that location in that type of boat you shouldn't discuss or comment on it. I don't think anybody can have total comprehension of any situation regardless of being there or not. People make decisions through their interpretation of the situation. People's interpretations differ so I don't understand why it can't be discussed.

Then there is the 'all the facts' camp. Until all the facts are known then comments or discussion should not occur. Putting the philosophical argument of what a fact is aside I don't think all the the facts will or can be known. So when can a proper discussion occur? Maybe after a report by the CG or possibly a book by one of the survivors? Will facts still not be open to intrepretation?

Lastly is the perjorative and vacuous 'armchair sailor' label. Aren't we all comfortably ensconed in some nook while posting on this forum.

So to sum up unless we are in the given situation as it is occuring, having prior experience of the same situation while having complete knowledge of the situation we are just 'armchair sailors' who should keep our mouthes shut.

However, if we had this knowledge would we be in that situation in the first place?
 
#149 ·
I don't understand the dismissive nature of some of the posts on this thread. It appears people aren't allowed to comment or discuss unless they meet certain metrics gained by experience. Who decides what these metrics are? Why can't a day sailor who only sails on Flat Calm Lake come up with an original point or idea relevant to the topic at hand.

Then there is the 'you weren't there' types. It appears unless you were in those conditions, at that time, in that location in that type of boat you shouldn't discuss or comment on it. I don't think anybody can have total comprehension of any situation regardless of being there or not. People make decisions through their interpretation of the situation. People's interpretations differ so I don't understand why it can't be discussed.

Then there is the 'all the facts' camp. Until all the facts are known then comments or discussion should not occur. Putting the philosophical argument of what a fact is aside I don't think all the the facts will or can be known. So when can a proper discussion occur? Maybe after a report by the CG or possibly a book by one of the survivors? Will facts still not be open to intrepretation?

Lastly is the perjorative and vacuous 'armchair sailor' label. Aren't we all comfortably ensconed in some nook while posting on this forum.

So to sum up unless we are in the given situation as it is occuring, having prior experience of the same situation while having complete knowledge of the situation we are just 'armchair sailors' who should keep our mouthes shut.

However, if we had this knowledge would we be in that situation in the first place?
Everyone has a right to an opinion sure. Robust debate and disagreement on here is a great thing, it gives us the chance to think about these issues and have our opinions challenged. Ultimately though I will listen and give more weight to those that do have the experience over the day sailor in threads like this.

I do also personally find it uncomfortable and awkward to be overly critical of sailors in situations like these without the facts or without showing some compassion for the experience they have gone through. I guess I figure he who has never made a mistake aboard a sailboat should throw the first stone and that won't be me.

I have come too close to be the subject of one of these threads at least a few times :)

Obviously call the USCG of you need them but it needs to be about personal responsibility and effort and not relying on the USCG to make up for your short comings.

We sail 4,000 miles per year and would never join a rally but our boat exceeds ISAF standards and we have never had a racer on board who's seamanship was better than my wife's.

And to Smack...how can a guy that looks like that write so well...obviously he has a ghost writer! The camera never lies!

Check our post for trans-Pacific, crew one or two needed Panama to New Zealand, or parts there of, starting February 2014.
+1.

I actually wish I could come crew for you, but alas time does not allow me too. By the sound of it though it would be the opportunity of a lifetime for someone, on a well found and well sailed boat.
 
#148 · (Edited)
This post reminds me of my medical training; after the juniors had been up all night up to their asses in alligators, blood and guts a 9-5 academic lab doctor would explain to us exactly what we had done wrong while he was asleep! All invitations to join us at night were ignored.

It is very hard to criticize the guy who was at the sharp end while you were at home in bed.

We sail 4,000 miles per year and would never join a rally but our boat exceeds ISAF standards and we have never had a racer on board who's seamanship was better than my wife's.

Obviously call the USCG if you need them but it needs to be about personal responsibility and effort and not relying on the USCG to make up for your short comings.

And to Smack...how can a guy that looks like that write so well...obviously he has a ghost writer! The camera never lies!

Check our post for trans-Pacific, crew one or two needed Panama to New Zealand, or parts there of, starting February 2014.

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/crew-wanted-available/105490-pacific-crossing.html

"Remember, experience only means that you screw-up less often."
 
#150 ·
Robust debate and disagreement on here is a great thing, it gives us the chance to think about these issues and have our opinions challenged.
I concur. I just prefer debate and discussion without it getting personal unless solicited. I like when these types of situations are discussed where details are still emerging. I try to look at the posts in the context in which they are described and compare them to posts when further details become available.

Ultimately though I will listen and give more weight to those that do have the experience over the day sailor in threads like this.
I guess that is a point you and I differ as I will first give consideration to the merits of the argument.
 
#151 ·
I guess that is a point you and I differ as I will first give consideration to the merits of the argument.
IMHO The merit of the argument is specifically related to the perspective of the person making it.

This is not philosophy. All that does matter (for me anyway) is becoming a better sailor. A well made argument is great, a discussion won is lovely, but it could still be wrong.
 
#155 ·
This is not philosophy.
Logical argumentation is the very basis of philosophy if it isn't I want some of my uni tuition back.

A well made argument is great, a discussion won is lovely, but it could still be wrong.
A 'well made argument' would be true otherwise it would not be 'well made' so could not be wrong. In philosophical terms this is called 'the fallacy of denying the antecedent.'

Experience has no bearing as to whether an argument is true or untrue only the logic of the argument the premise is built on.
 
#158 ·
These unappreciative Monday Night Armchair Sailors make me sick!

Here on Sailnet, they simply don't appreciate the amazing opportunity to worship at the feet of these Ocean Giants, amazing geniuses who are capable of fantastic feats of superhuman gallantry by actually SAILING IN THE OCEAN AWAY FROM LAND!!!

Anyone who can SAIL IN THE OCEAN AWAY FROM LAND deserves our everlasting respect and admiration!

By the way, this was no mere gale that surprised a bunch of unprepared geriatric picnic sailors on boats that were too big for them to handle, IT WAS A FULL BLOWN HURRICANE, capable of smashing boats instantly in the Gulfstream, rendering genuine real sailors into quivering, blood-puking, EPIRB-activating survivalists, you damn Monday Night Armchair Sailors!

Now, take some Blue Water Sailing courses and have some respect for your superiors!
Some here don't appear to appreciate your cheekiness James but I, for one, do.
 
#159 ·
Once again it would seem some are inserting their opinions as facts here. Paulo took what I said and assumed all the boats that called in sent maydays. I never said anyone sent a mayday. The facts as far as I know only 2 of the boats sent maydays and 2 sent a spot sos. In some cases the boats never called the CG and only called in to the SSb net coordinator who in turn made a phone call to the CG informing them of the situation, no mayday or Pan pan. For at least one that lost their mast they set off the EPIRB a natural thing to do when your rig is in the water pounding against your hull. Once they cleared things and got everything under control they canceled the emergency as they felt they could get by on their own.

My point is lets not start a argument and condemn people based on speculation. If you do not know the facts take the time to learn them. This can be a good discussion that could help others thinking of making this passage in the future but it would help to keep the facts separate from opinion.
 
#178 ·
Once again it would seem some are inserting their opinions as facts here. Paulo took what I said and assumed all the boats that called in sent maydays......
You should at least read what others write before accusing them of having unsubstantiated opinions. It is not me that said that those boats sent maydays but the Coast guard. I also posted that two other boats asked for help trough satphone (according to the CG):

"Here's a breakdown of each incident provided by the U.S. Coast Guard:

Rescue #1:

Crewmembers aboard the 41-foot sailboat, Ahimsa, sent out a distress signal via a satellite tracking device, stating that they were taking on water approximately 230 miles east of Virginia Beach and were in need of assistance.
....

Rescue #2:

In a second case, crewmembers aboard the 38-foot sailboat Nyapa, sent out a distress signal via a satellite tracking device stating that they had lost their mast and were taking on water approximately 275 miles east of Virginia Beach and were in need of assistance.

Rescue #3:

In a third case, 5th District watchstanders received an alert from an emergency position indicating radio beacon registered the sailboat Aurora....


U.S. Coast Guard Comes to Rescue of ?Salty Dogs? Off Virginia Coast | gCaptain ? Maritime & Offshore News

Regards

Paulo
 
#160 ·
Another point completely over looked is that the reason all these boats leave when they do is because insurance companies will not let the boats further south than 30 before November 1. I think this is the main reason so many get in trouble with these late season frontal systems. They have to wait till after the first to leave and this is just the time of year you get all those cold fronts starting to come thru. Maybe we should bash the insurance companies instead of the skippers!
 
#162 ·
Wayne is right about insurance and Nov 1 and I suspect the conditions locally were worse that reported generally.

It is a fallacy that there is a magical weather window on Nov 1st between the last tropical storm and the first Nor'easter of winter. This fallacy is made even worse by Rallies having a fixed start window of the first week in November.

We have done the outside Hatteras trip twice in the November, because of our insurance, but we just sat on the Chesapeake until the weather was suitable.

" Never leave a warm pub to go out in a Gale!" my old British Navy Dad used to tell me!

So lets all just be constructive and learn from the errors of others.

"Remember experience only means that you screw up less often!"
 
#163 ·
When I say the facts as I know them it is based on my having listened to the radio conversations from the skippers on the boats in trouble to the net. No one other than those out there know the full facts. I feel the information I have presented is more accurate than what I have read by those who have only read a news report. I will let the reader here decide which information to use for discussion.
 
#164 ·
I've read most of this thread, and have formed some strong opinions.

After careful consideration, I've decided not to share most of them because:

1. I am still unsure of all the facts, despite what has been presented here from media and "live witnesses" so I won't opine on these participants' decision-making.

2. Although I have raced and cruised in some strong conditions, I have not yet left the Chesapeake Bay, and I don't want to offer misinformation on ocean sailing.

I guess I can safely offer one very general opinion on "regulation":

Recent trends in U.S. society indicate that when groups of people frequently engage in activities that result in injury, death, and a perceived drain on public resources, these activites end up being heavily regulated or curtailed. Often, these negative events are extremely amplified by national and local media. (I won't opine on the reasons why, here.)

MANY activities share this common thread with sailing:
Hiking
Rock climbing
Motorcycles
Sky-diving
Hot air ballooning
Recreational boating

It all boils down to "If you poop in your own bed, your parents will be along shortly to control you, to prevent future occurances".

Therefore, "self-regulation" is the safest, least intrusive option. Self-regulation, is simply taking responsibility for one's self.
So how do we do that?

Rallies could require participants to demonstrate a minimum level of seamanship. This could be demonstrated by producing proof of attending SAS seminars, or other educational processes. Failure to provide proof= non-participation.

Rallies could require (and offer) free, in-depth vessel inspections and specify minimum equipment requirements. Failure to pass= non-participation.

Rallies could offer refresher training seminars prior to departure (not to be counted as a replacement for SAS training, but as a supplement or refresher)

This doesn't infrigne upon anyone's freedom, because participation in rallies is not legally required, but rather it encourages good seamanship and leverages that feeling that sailing in a rally promotes safety.

In short: If rallies provide a false sense of safety, then let's turn this into a genuine source of safety and good seamanship.

I do NOT NOT NOT agree that rally organizers should be held in any degree responsible for what happens on a vessel at sea. This sets a dangerous, legal precedent. Eventually a line must be drawn in the sand, where the skipper is responsible.

We don't sue meteorologists when their forecasts are wrong, and a family minivan spins out in the snow because they opted to ignore real-world conditions and set out for a drive to the movie theater.

All the rally can do, is promote preparedness, good seamanship, and offer the best meteorlogical information and routing possible. The skipper is the actual "man on the scene" and must make decisions that sometimes contradict what a weather-router 900 miles away, is telling him.

In the spirit of self-regulation, responsibility, and keeping our sport free from government interference, we should each of us, strive to continually learn and improve our seamanship. We should encourage good seamanship within our community, especially among new sailors, be they old or young.

Offering a wide variety of affordable, comprehensive education and hands-on training, and selling good seamanship as "cool skills to have" instead of some kind of elitist thing, will encourage people to do the right thing.

I apologize for the length of my post.:eek:
 
#165 ·
No one other than those out there know the full facts. I feel the information I have presented is more accurate than what I have read by those who have only read a news report.
As I said previously I don't believe anybody will know fully what has transpired. I think it is impossible.

It could be true what you have presented could more accurate then the news reports but I would think it likely at least some of the reports included information through direct contact with the CG so have information you likely would not have.

I don't mind the digression of the discourse in this thread. Regardless of the veracity of the information the discussion in this thread can be useful. I don't think anybody in their right mind would determine a final conclusion about this based on the information garnered here.
 
#167 ·
I hate to opine as I see as bad karma on such things as you never know, it can and will happen to us in the future but

there was a pic posted last page or 2 back of what seems to be an island packet 30 something or 40 something with no damage whatsoever other than a wrapped furler(which happens a lot if one is not careful) and part of the reason I ony use hank on sails.

can somebody explain to me if this boat issued a mayday or not? or was it just a pic from a passing plane?
 
#174 ·
Yes.

The picture relates with what is immediately above on that post:

"ST PETERSBURG, FL -
The Coast Guard rescued three stranded sailors who were trapped 80 miles west of Tampa.

On Monday afternoon, the sailing boat 'Grateful' was making its way from Louisiana to Cape Coral. The three-man crew was delivering it to its owner when things went horribly wrong.

"It was nerve wracking," said sailor Brian Burke. "By Monday morning, we had lost our engines, blown out a sail, and by that time we were adrift."

The crew sent out a distress signal.

"Within about an hour and 45 minutes we had a helicopter overhead, he was communicating with us," said sailor Craig Toomey.

Soon after, the Coast Guard Cutter 'Nantucket' was sent to the rescue.

"[The water] was pretty bad," Captain Ryan Waitt said. "The biggest issue was the seas were building, we saw about 6 to 8 feet."

"It was a little dicey, and a little uncomfortable and not something I wanna do again anytime soon," said Cleve Fair, another sailor on board....Currently, the 'Grateful' is still disabled and stranded at sea....Despite this obvious mishap, these men still plan to finish the job they started, and deliver the boat to Cape Coral.




Coast Guard rescues 3 boaters 80 miles west of Tampa - WFLA News Channel 8"

However this happened at Nov 05, 2013 and not in this rally.

Regards

Paulo
 
#171 ·
Is this not a schedule?

Quote:
The Fall 2013 Salty Dawg Rally will depart on November 4 (weather permitting) from Bluewater Yachting Center, Hampton, VA (or other locations of your choice), to sail to the British Virgin Islands, the Bahamas, or other various locations.
I don't see the difference here. The times I have gone off shore, with the exception of racing, a departure date was determined and we left when the weather permitted. Think that's fairly typical.
 
#173 ·
You're right. There is always a schedule. But a schedule you set for yourself is very different than a schedule set by an organization you're looking to, backed by weather advice its providing, reinforced by another 115 boats you're supposed to sail with.
 
#176 ·
I guess I'm still misssing your point Smack. Cuisers often go in packs and hire the services of a weather guru.

From what I understand only 2 of the boats were from the SDR out of 116. That's less than 2 percent. Those are numbers the last single handed round the would event would die for. Though the comparision is not exact these are elite sailors.
 
#179 ·
I guess I'm still misssing your point Smack. Cuisers often go in packs and hire the services of a weather guru.

From what I understand only 2 of the boats were from the SDR out of 116. That's less than 2 percent. Those are numbers the last single handed round the would event would die for. Though the comparision is not exact these are elite sailors.
I don't know the exact numbers of SDR boats involved. The SDR site mentions 5...

There were several incidents and emergencies among the fleet in the first 36 hours in which five boats had rudder and rig failures, seasickness and one broken arm.
Regardless of this number/ratio - I'm not in any way talking about what individual or loosely affiliated cruisers do. I'm talking about organized/sponsored rallies.
 
#190 ·
The C42 is a Gerry Douglas design from the 1990’s. C38 is a Sparkman Stephens IOR design built by Catalina and predates the C42 by between 10 and 20 years (depending upon the year purchased.) I have firsthand experience on both (raced the C38 and cruised the C42). Their rudders and steering gear are totally different and whatever problems these two boats encountered, it was not the result of a single root cause in either design or manufacture.
 
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