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Is Sailing Sexist?

57K views 358 replies 90 participants last post by  wmartin78758 
#1 ·
I just reviewed a book with a title that made me think- Joy Smith's "The Perfect First Mate- A Woman's Guide to Recreational Boating"

Dock Six Chronicles: Book Reviewsday Tuesday: Bad Title, Better Book

I thought the book had some great information, but the title kind of stuck in my craw: Why not title it "The Perfect Boat Owner"? I put it to the ladies of Sailnet- is this lifestyle of ours as sexist as I think?
 
#264 ·
Not the same thing as 'strike up conversation with the guy.' My example is, 'once we have initiated a discussion, and woman has made cogent statements, chauvinist still turns to the man as though woman has said nothing or is disinterested.'

It's offensive, and as I've said, husband has noticed it too.
 
#266 ·
Personally, I really dig it when the woman aboard likes to talk about sailing as much as the guy. However, that is rarely the case.

I even have to wonder if some walk around with a chip on their shoulder over this and convict every guy within site. If I sense an attitude, I will certainly talk with the more welcoming. Doesn't matter the subject. Doesn't matter the gender.
 
#268 ·
Tom,Tom,

Its a looong long way from " the abuse of women worldwide" to " The Perfect First Mate" which is a book for sailing wives and/or for well off couples who own large sailboats. The book deals with such issues as UV protection and "boat breath".
 
#269 ·
Yes, Sal, but the OP finished with, "does sexism exist in sailing?"

And I say the OP was answered immediately, affirmative; both by those that recognize sexism exists in our society/therefore-sailing, and by those that said sexism doesn't exist in sailing.

My point is the latter answer, denial of sexism(that's not possible due to evidence to the contrary), keeps sexism alive and well, while proving it's existence.

Someone asked what are we doing to eliminate sexism in sailing? I'm calling out denial, on any level, as the enemy to eliminating sexism, world wide, and in sailing. :)
 
#270 · (Edited)
No one can deny that it exists in the world, and that many other horrible and wonderful things also exist in the world, and many things we can't even comprehend.

But anyone can deny that sexism exists in a particular circumstance. That doesn't make them the enemy of anybody or anything, nor does it entail keeping sexism alive. I can however see that line of thinking in some of the responses on this thread.

For the record, the myth that "women earn less than men for the same work" has already been thrown into the dustbin of falsehoods with " alongside men beat their wives after the superbowl"(God how many times did I have to listen to that one!) and a hundred other myths. Its just not true..

http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2013/08/gender_pay_gap_the_familiar_line_that_women_make_77_cents_to_every_man_s.html

I wouldn't rush to judge other couples or crews if what they are doing in their relationships works for them in their particular circumstance. There are many many things we can't comprehend.

By the way, my intitial comment toward you was just a tongue in cheek joke and you are a good sport.Thanks.
 
#275 · (Edited)
Personally I think sexism exists throughout society and in sailing. However, where it all gets a little confusing for me is whether or not you can assume that the fact that only 10% of the people in a given role (like rigger for example) are women is the result of sexism.

I work in the IT industry and have for 25 years now. It's heavily male dominated even though some notable pioneers were women. There were quite a few women in my college level courses (though definitely not 50%) and I had a number of female colleagues over the first 10 years of my career but fewer and fewer since.

The first software developer I ever hired to work for me was a woman. That was over 15 years ago. The last time I tried to fill a developer position 6 months ago, there were exactly 0 female applicants.

So is that fact that we have no female developers in our organization due to sexism or something else? Now, I'm sure sexism plays a role but I have to think a large part of it is just the choice on the part of women not to pursue that kind of career.

Are there some woman who'd like to go into software development but don't because they'd feel out of place or unwelcome? Probably. Is there some sort of subconscious gender training that steers women away from that kind of work? Probably. Are these the only reasons? I don't think so.
 
#277 ·
"Although either of the sexes are free to choose their educational direction and occupations in the free industrialized world, there remains a much greater proportion of men in engineering, math, architecture, the physical sciences, mechanics, construction, and computer science."

I hate to burst your little male bubble, but this statement just isn't true any more. Many schools of architecture are more than 50% female, and the trend is quickly heading that way in many of the engineering fields as well. Actually, the women are outperforming men in math in many areas.

Jeff ... a 67 year old architect
 
#278 ·
...
I hate to burst your little male bubble, but this statement just isn't true any more. Many schools of architecture are more than 50% female, and the trend is quickly heading that way in many of the engineering fields as well. Actually, the women are outperforming men in math in many areas.

Jeff ... a 67 year old architect
I've heard this as well. Not specifically for the architectural field, but the decades-long push to get more women into math and science has resulted in more women going into math and science with the men/boys numbers falling behind.
 
#280 · (Edited)
jmessick;1226985 I hate to burst your little male bubble said:
Nope. Its mostly guys. I graduated architecture school 20 odd years ago and then it was mostly guys... did a tour of a bunch of architecture schools last year with my son , almost all boys in our groups..... kid ended up in engineering (yaa!) ,again mostly guys. Not that he is happy about that fact,quite the reverse. BTW - little advice here; keep your kid out of architecture, its a terrible field.

We have 3 architects and one assistant architect in my firm. All the architects are men. The assistant is a woman. I am her official NCARB mentor and I actually recruited her. Unfortunately, she way is too scared of making mistakes and too reluctant to take responsibility for the building design and she has decided on her own ( to my dismay) to never pursue her license and just assist.

As for motorcycling, of which I am also a member - its almost all guys. I bought my wife her own motorcycle years ago and she rode my bikes too. When she was young she was a halfway decent rider but as she got older she became, in her own words, too scared. Its okay.

Motorcycling is almost all guys. Most guys, myself included , love riding with momen. They give a great perspective. Difference is you don't hear many women complaining about the overwhelming number of guys. My guess is the women motorcyclists are a bit more adventurous and have learned to enjoy it. :)

Sal Paradise, Registered Architect
 
#281 ·


As for motorcycling, of which I am also a member - its almost all guys. I bought my wife her own motorcycle years ago and she rode my bikes too. When she was young she was a halfway decent rider but as she got older she became, in her own words, too scared. Its okay.

Motorcycling is almost all guys. Most guys, myself included , love riding with momen. They give a great perspective. Difference is you don't hear many women complaining about the overwhelming number of guys. My guess is the women motorcyclists are a bit more adventurous and have learned to enjoy it. :)

Sal Paradise, Registered Architect
yeah. that's what i was pointing out. in America, at least, i wouldn't say more than one in ten motorcycle owners are women. however, every guy i know that rides thinks it's awesome when they see women riding their own bikes. and it's no question that women love to ride on motorcycles. however, most women don't seem to have any interest in riding their own bikes. why? i don't know but it is certainly not because motorcycle riding is sexist. i think there are just certain things that attract women ( or men, for that matter ) and certain things that don't. biker women are very outspoken yet you never hear discussions like this in the motorcycle community. so, it would seem, the women who ride don't seem to think the fact that many more men own bikes is sexist.

it's been suggested that it's sexist because, in a lot of cases, men and women take certain chores as belonging to one or the other. but i don't see that as an argument with merit, either. i work on the cars. my GF does most of the cooking. notice i said most and not all. of course, i am the one who knows how to work on cars. she is a better, all around, cook. is it sexist that she doesn't do half of the car work and i don't do more of the cooking? no. she doesn't know how to work on cars and, although she enjoys having me explain what i am doing to her, she has no interest in actually doing it. believe me. i have a lot on my plate. if she wanted to take the auto work off of my hands, i'd let her. it would be less work for me to worry about.

it's easy to see discrimination in everything you see, if you have that frame of mind. that doesn't mean it's there. it's easy to be paranoid, if you smoke pot, but that doesn't mean anyone is really out to get you or that there is a cop behind every noise you hear.
 
#282 · (Edited)
I think you are onto something there, jack. I can only add that its weird the way the guys literally fall all over the place goofy eyed and giddy when they see my wife take off her helmet and that blond hair fall out. OMG - a woman rider!!!

And riding with her in our group they are thrilled that she is with us. I mean, to me its almost embarassing attention but she seems like she either doesn't notice or she likes it. I really don't care. But its ridiculous. The guys are beside themselves with happiness that we have a woman rider in the group. Still, she isn't really interested.

I think that is something that women don't understand about men - how much guys enjoy sharing activities like sailing or riding with a woman.
 
#283 · (Edited by Moderator)
Their are problems with sexism everywhere. I used to be involved with feminist groups and "identify as feminist" as they say. Then I realized there was a much larger agenda at work that I wasn't on board with at all. I'm egalitarian about it, I think the system we have is something that evolved not something a bunch of men or people in general sat down and created. [text removed] I could go on but suffice it to say, yes, there's a problem, and no feminism is no solution. There has to be a better way, a gender neutral and to borrow one of the left wing extremists own buzz words a more "inclusive" way to get rid of this dehumanizing situation. Then, we can live like people not live stock segregated by our sex into roles .
 
#288 · (Edited)
There has to be a better way, a gender neutral and to borrow one of the left wing extremists own buzz words a more "inclusive" way to get rid of this dehumanizing situation. Then, we can live like people not live stock, segregated by our sex into roles .
i liked a good bit of your post but i have to raise a point about this. like live stock, we are animals. except for asexual animals, all animals are, by nature, separated by gender. each gender has it's own qualities that it is born with that, when combined with the other gender, allows the species to survive and propogate.

as with most communal mammals, males are primarily designed for defense and to provide while child rearing is under way. females are primarily designed to nurture and teach the young. notice that men have higher aggression, greater body strength (naturally built with heavier frames and a greater abiity to build muscle mass) while women have mammary glands and hips designed to carry children...not to mention wombs to give birth to them. did you know that, although men are more resistant to pain, as a rule, women are born with a far greater tolerance for abdominal pain? women can deal with abdominal pain that woud have a man in a fetal position, on the ground. it's an evolutionary quality they are born with to fufill the role that nature saw fit to give them. thankfuly so. if men had to give birth, i seriously doubt we'd see too many future generations.

each gender has it's own physical, mental, and emotional qualities that are specific to that gender and are qualities that have develped, through evolution to allow for the survival of the species. this is not to say that, in most areas, men and women can not perform the same tasks; only that we are separated and differentiated by gender naturally.

this is not an unnatural state we impose on livestock or on ourselves. it is a natural state of animal life on this planet... each species after it's own nature.
 
#289 ·
that's one of the things about the feminist movement that has always bothered me. throughout the 70s and 80s, they have put down motherhood (calling housewives leeches and prostitues and only giving worth to "working women" as if mothers don't do any work) and anything actually feminine. they push the idea that women can only have worth if they do what men do. so, what they are really saying is that, by nature, women have no worth. that they have to shun their natural quaities and roles and become as men to have any worth. that's disturbing. not only is it important for women to give birth but, women have always shaped and maintained the fabric of human society by teaching children the proper way to be as a member of that society, during the most important learning years of life. what more important function could anyone possibly have? if the children are the future, then the people (mothers) who shape and guide those children must be the most important part of society.

i refer everyone to the Norse story of Agnar and Geirrod and how they were raised by Odin and his wife, Frigga. it really puts this in perspective.
 
#292 ·
i agree. however, it seems to be inevitable that a discussion of whether something is sexist or not...in other words, whether it is exclusionary or derrogotorry to women...ends up with someone saying something to the effect that gender considerations/differences are man made and sexist and could/should somehow dissappear as if gender doesn't exist. it's a valid point when considering race but not gender. as in most things in life, humans exist in a dichotomy. yin and yang. day and night, life and death, light and dark, summer and winter...man and woman. two distinct halves that make up the whole.

i just wanted to address the implication because i do think that, not only is it unrealistic but, it obscures the actual issue; that being whether sailing is exclusionary or belittling towards women.
 
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#296 · (Edited)
yeah. but what does that actualy mean in this discussion?

i almost think the word sexism needs to be defined for the purpose of the discussion. to my mind, sexism is descrimination, exclusion, and negative treatment based on gender. it can happen to either gender. for instance, all male events or organizations are considered sexist yet all female events or organizations are not...yet, they most certainly are sexist in that they are exclusionary to people of another gender.

however, some people seem to think that because people of one gender or the other are naturally drawn to a certain activity more than another gender that it means that activity is sexist. or that people tend to adopt chores or tasks, naturally, in a pattern that seems to reflect a gender preference for certain tasks over others that those people are sexist. yet, if people naturally choose certain things over others, not being forced to it, how can it be sexist?

if you look back through the thread, you will see what i mean in the above examples.

so, i really think a solid accepted definition is necessary before it can be determined if a things is sexist. otherwise, you get people comparing apples to oranges. i think the discussion to determine said definition will be just as heated and controvercial as this one; maybe moreso.
 
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#312 ·
I suppose it's inevitable that this thread gets off the beaten track but please, maintain some level of civility. Nothing says we have to think alike, but we can discuss opposing ideas without beating each other up and engaging in personal attacks (however cleverly cloaked).

I was never into the hardcore feminist movement like some wrote about here. I'm not against it but extremism isn't my thing. But I do believe that I (and all women) have been a beneficiary as I feel free to choose my path as a female. Some days are Little Black Dress days and some days are rebuild the head days. Some days I feel like standing up for an ideology, some days I don't. To me the main benefit of that movement was the (perhaps perceived) notion of being able to choose.

Every woman, just like every man, approaches sailing differently. Some women lack the self-confidence to try docking on their own, some women don't give it another thought and just do it. I learned to sail because I wanted to learn to sail. Just like I did with kayaking, scuba, and whatever other activity I wanted to try. The fact that I would have a problem doing any of it because I'm a woman never crossed my mind. What other people thought of me doing it never crossed my mind. I really don't think of it much at all until I read this thread.

There have been some harsh words thrown out in this thread. Again, I get that it's inevitable. I get the attitude that feels "life is harsh, deal with it" but I will try to stand for those women who have told me those attitudes are the main reason they don't participate more in forums and tend to just read and for those women who prefer that this forum follow the original intent. So, one reason why there are fewer women responding in HerSailnet let alone across the entire site.

One thing that crosses my mind when I read a comment, usually from a male but not always, saying that he or she is against having a forum like this, is what happens to the women who are feeling their way? The ones who have been continually put down and are trying to break out of that pattern in baby steps? The ones who *thought* HerSailNet was a safe place to ask a question without being belittled? Do we simply let Darwinism kick in? It's really not about a segregated forum because those people who are going to attack them will do it *out there*, too. Those people who will be blunt to the point of being hurtful will be no matter where. But, the people who started herSailNet way back when thought it was worth a shot if it helped the less self-confident get into sailing and get enough of a foundation to sail into the big, "bad" outside world. At least they were trying to reach out. They tried to help. Whether it worked, I don't know. Probably not. Comments about how they shouldn't have tried serve no useful purpose, I don't think.

It really isn't segregated because, unlike the women-only forum on CF or the couple of women in sailing Facebook groups I belong to, men are allowed to post here.

In my mind, the women and men who can stand up to sarcasm and snarky remarks, the women and men who can but choose their battles and this is not one of them, the women and men who feel too intimidated but want to learn, they all deserve respect no matter how they choose to approach life (unless, of course, they are total flat out jerks or serial killers).
 
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#313 ·
:confused: I'm very much of two minds about this - I appreciate the spirit in which it was meant, and at the same time hope I'm strong enough to take care of myself out there in the big world...

Other opinions?

I have the same ambivalence about "women-only" sailing instruction, but perhaps that's fodder for a separate thread.
I liked Eryka's post. Was she really banned? Why?
 
#314 ·
She was not. She had an unfortunate incident with identity theft. I think at the time that was the best way the moderators felt to close that user name without losing her posts. She is still here but under a different name.
 
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#317 · (Edited)
Sexism is prevalent for both genders.
Men and women gravitating to one sport/chore/event is more complicated than genes. Men and women are encouraged by parents, friends, society, etc to behave a certain way. And it starts the moment they leave the womb.

A pink hat goes on the newborn girl. A blue hat goes on the newborn boy. Little boys have their rooms decorated in blue with super heroes, cars and planes. Girls get pink rooms with dolls and stuffed animals.
Boys are dressed in pants and shirts and when they dirty their pants, adults roll their eyes saying "boys will be boys". Girls get dresses and are scolded for getting dirty.
Boys get footballs, boats and toy trucks to play with. Girls get dolls which they dress. Sometimes they are baby dolls that they feed, practice changing diapers, etc. They get pretty hair ties and toy makeup.

Eventually they align with the roles given to them via positive and negative reinforcement from society, parents, friends, etc as well as them observing those of the same gender. It continues throughout life where both genders are encouraged to act one way, discouraged to act another. It comes from parents, TV shows, friends, movies, commercials.
You end up with men who "aren't sensitive" (which I think men in general are more sensitive than women are-breakups are incredibly rough on them) and women who "are afraid to get dirty". Or men who "can't cook" and women who "can't do math". All ridiculous assertions. Men are perfectly able to cook. Women are perfectly able to do math. It's been proven over and over again that men and women are equally good cooking and at math. Men are sensitive otherwise they'd be robots. Women are perfectly capable of getting dirty.
You know, in a study, math and science scores went down for girls when it was suggested before a test that girls weren't as good in math and science as boys were. Nothing had changed except for someone planting a seed of doubt. Yet girls are constantly bombarded with things like that.

This shirt says it all.

^And some girls/women would be proud to wear that.

Think about your child. How upset would you be knowing someone was causing your child to doubt themselves, cause their scores to lower, cause them to neglect skills they have by whispering such ugly things to them? Well, it happens everywhere, every day, all of the time and not many are aware of it.

Occasionally you find someone who shrugs all of the outside influences, tomboys and such. By the way, what is the equivalent term for men? What do you call a man who wants to sew or cook dinner? Doesn't it say a lot that most terms you'd call a man with interests familiar to women are derogatory? So lets not forget what men go through.

Men are subject to such ridicule if they show anything other than what society deems men should and unfortunately are not offered the same protection women available to women for it.
A man who honestly considers his wife or girlfriend's thoughts is "whipped" or she's "got his balls in her purse". If they cry then they're a pansy. If they want to bake a cake, then people call him a **** in a derogatory way. It's gotten even worse for them because TV shows and commercials are picturing them as complete idiots who are barely able to tie their own shoes without the instruction of a woman. And I can't tell you how many conversations strange women start with me to break the ice about "their stupid husband". I always think "Well, you married him so I guess that makes two idiots." :rolleyes:
So you see, both sides are subject. These days, I think men might have it worse.

If you really study society, you'll get disgusted by all of the outside influences stripping people of both genders of their individuality because these influences are so incredibly powerful.

Until society, family, friends, stop putting pressure on both sexes to act a certain way, we'll never be rid of it. That won't happen until people decide they've had enough with being put into a box.

Is sailing sexist? No.
 
#319 ·
a great and fair minded post! kudos to you!

the nurture/nature argument. there is a ot of nurture involved however, especialy with today's entertainment industry having so many movies with beautiful yet deadly, tough, heroic women that save the day, i'd say it's not as much as it used to be. there is an increasing amount of scientific evidence that suggests a ot more of our personaities is genetic than we formerly thought.

by the way, a guy that crys a lot is a pansy and i don't think anyone ever calls a dude **** in a good way. :D

as far as society encouraging certain roles and behaviors based on gender, those aren't the evil that a ot of people seem to think. it is a matter of survival of the species. when your family group is faced with death by an attacking beast, tribe, or space alien do you realy want the males, those designed by nature to be physically better at fighting and killing, to be sitting around crying in fear whie the only ones that nature saw fit to give the ability to bear and nurse young wade in to their possible deaths?

and kids playing with socialy approved gender role toys is simply a reflection of the play of all species. young lions play at stalking and hunting and killing....because that's what they will have to do as adults and it's good preliminary training.

boys have aways played with war toys or construction toys or other such things because that would be the tasks expected of them as adults. the same goes with girls playing with dolls, especially ones that are like babies. play is prepation for life.

certain gender roles don't really mean anything in modern society. the man is no longer necessarily going to be the bread winner. some gender roes will never be meaningless. i don't think you will ever see guys giving birth.

not sexist just reality.

anyhow... again, awesome post.
 
#325 ·
If instrinsic value was the defining reason for the internet and if that which was so valuable the only thing here there'd not be a lot of content.

The word 'gal' is not in fact necessarily considered offensive by 'true feminists'. Reality is that it is all in the context.

Oh yes and Mr WGEwald ..... tread lightly. Her SailNet is not in Off Topic. Sailing forum rules apply and that means be civil.
 
#331 · (Edited)
Jack, my man, where do you find the time to type? For one, I just can't read posts that long to the end. Especially, when pushing the OT boundaries.

If this thread weren't started with a high interest sailing related issue, it would have been banned to OT a long time ago.
that was written around 4:00 am this morning. i don't tend to sleep a lot.

i suppose that post might have been on the edge of being off topic. however, male/female roles has come up a good deal during the course of this thread so i think it's safely within the limits.
 
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