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Help! My survey is done!...

6K views 46 replies 20 participants last post by  sailingdog 
#1 · (Edited)
Hey guys,...

So, the Survey of the Catalina just got finished. And I need some helpful advice from you experienced boat buyers

Here's the boat again for those who haven't been following my first time boat buying experience: http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...units=Feet&access=Public&listing_id=1984&url=)

As most of you said, the boat's in great shape on the outside. And on the inside.

However, there are quite a few things which need to be changed in order to be compliable with the law or to even get insurance.

1. Propane heater has to be taken out. Too dangerous and wouldnt get insurance.

2. New running lights(the old ones are out of date, do not meet international standards, would not get insurance coverage for the boat with just those ones)

3. electric LPG switch for propane stove has to be implemented, right now it's just a screw off/on for the propane tank that controls the whole propane deal

4. Propane hose from the tank to the stove has to be replaced with an adequate hose(the type that won't catch fire), the current one isn't meant for propane.

5. Batteries don't have socks to cover the terminals. And they are just automotive batteries, not marine batteries, they are also not tied down properly. They also do not have acid proof containers, which I would have to install.

6. Needs new fire-extinguishers

7. Needs a flare kit

8. Needs to VHF radio. Current one works but really old and has a car speaker wired to it to be able to work(the previous owner was a bit of a "do it myself handi- man)

So that's it.

Now, the surveyor's main comments were "You're paying way too much for this boat" After he checked the market data, he came up with a fair market value of $7,800 for the boat. My intial offer was $12,000

The boat over all is in "average" condition. Which is to be expected of a boat that has been sitting at the dock for 3 years.

The gelcoat on the hull also needs a bit of TLC. There is a pee like yellowy tint on it, which I was told was caused by just sitting in the salt water for so long and comes out with some products, or even vinager.

My questions:

1. Do you guys think those things that need fixing will take a lot of work / money? If so, how much?

2. I still like the boat, but I do not want to pay $12K for it if that is indeed the value of the boat and considering I will need to spend quite a bit of time to get her into my standards. I'm thinking to put a lower post survey offer in now, how much do you think would be good? I'm thinking $8,500, is that even too high?

Any other comments appreciated :)

Kacper
 
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#2 ·
Ok, there's two ways to look at it. One, make an offer based on you fixing the problems, or two, make an offer based on the owner bringing it up to code. Either way, you would want to get an estimate of the repairs, as part of your decision. There's nothing there that would be that hard to fix if you are at all handy with tools. For instance, the cabin heater doesn't actually have to come out, just be disconnected from the propane. You pull out the old propane line to the stove, and have a new one made up. The LPG switch is actually a switch and a solenoid. The solenoid goes in the propane locker, and then the switch where it is convienent. You'll have two wires coming from the solenoid, one to negative, and one to the switch, then two from the switch, again, one to negative and one to a hot lead (with inline fuse). Nav lights shouldn't be too difficult either, if the wiring is okay.
 
#3 ·
Kacper-

If the surveyor says it has a fair market value of $7,800 and your offer was $12,000... you're paying way too much.

I doubt that the seller will be very happy if you drop your offer by 30%, considering that most of the survey results are relatively inexpensive repairs.

Propane heater removal, upgraded hose, propane solenoid installation are really all one issue. You can do it... or pay someone to install all of it, but it isn't all that expensive over all.

Batteries should probably be properly secured in a battery box with a lid. Cost of new batteries and proper battery box depends on the number of batteries and size.

Fire extinguishers and flares are just USCG safety items and you should probably get new when you buy a boat... don't trust the PO to have maintained them. SOLAS grade offshore kit is $280. I don't recommend getting the USCG, since the SOLAS flares are significantly better. Small set of fire extinguishers is probably $50 or so.

VHF radio... get a DSC-ready one. A decent one is about $270 for a really nice Icom M504 with fog and hailer. New antenna is about $45 or so.

Navigation lights... get LED-based ones...they're a bit more expensive, but they'll be cheaper in the long run and lower maintenance. A tricolor/anchor light is $350, bicolor and stern light is probably $650 for the two lights.
 
#4 ·
Hey Kacper ! Congratulations...welcome to poverty :)

I am sure that you'll get a lot of info, but I'll throw in my two cents...

1. Propane heater has to be taken out. Too dangerous and wouldnt get insurance.

Take it out - not an issue unless you are planning on living on it. YOu can put one in later - properly vented with sniffers and solenoids etc.

2. New navigation lights(the old ones are out of date and would not get insurance coverage for the boat with just those ones)

This may or may not be the case - a lot of insurers are going to write your policy over the phone - they won't see the boat, and will insure it as is pending upgrades. You will have to replace them eventually - not hard to do - figure $300 to do it nicely

3. electric LPG switch for propane stove has to be implemented, right now it's just a screw off/on for the propane tank that controls the whole propane deal

Important - but not hard to do. A complete control system sells for about $350.00 at Defender. You can install it as long as you follow the directions properly.

4. Propane hose from the tank to the stove has to be replaced with an adequate rubber hose, the current one isn't meant for propane.

$50 and a half hour - part of number 3 above

5. Batteries don't have socks to cover the diodes. And they are just automotive batteries, not marine batteries, they are also not tied down properly.

I would go so far as to say that at least half of the boats sailing right now have car batteries in them rather than marine batteries. Upgrade when you can afford it. Tie downs are about $20 and maybe two hours to install.

6. Needs new fire-extinguishers

$200.00 or thereabouts for 2 decent ones - check out Defender, or you can go to a hardware store...

7. Needs a flare kit

You are going to have to buy one of these every few years - might as well start now...

8. Needs to VHF radio. Current one works but really old and has a car spaker wired to it to be able to work(the previous owner was a bit of a "do it myself handi- man)

Get an inexpensive handheld one for about $150.00

So that's it.

Now, the surveyor's main comments were "You're paying way too much for this boat" After he checked the market data, he came up with a fair market value of $7,800 for the boat. My intial offer was $12,000

My questions:

1. Do you guys think those things that need fixing will take a lot of work / money? If so, how much?

See above

2. I still like the boat, but I do not want to pay $12K for it if that is indeed the value of the boat. I'm thinking to put a lower post survey offer in now, how much do you think would be good? I'm thinking $8,500, is that even too high?

Start low. Get actual prices for the necessary upgrades. Look at Yachtworld and a couple of other sites to see what people are listing for...same boat/year...deduct 25% and that should give you a reasonable estimate of what they are actually selling for.

Is it in line with what your surveyor says ? If so, then yes - you take his value and you deduct the cost of the propane upgrades and the nav light upgrades from you offer. If he won't sell then keep looking.

If you surveyor's estimate seems low, then find out how familiar he is with your segment of the market. Ask around, ask him, whatever...if he usually surveys 100 foot diesel yachts, he might be a bit out of touch with smaller sailboats...

Good Luck - Keep posting !!
 
#5 ·
The good news is that nothing that you list is much more than normal maintenance. Replacing the propane gear is obviously the highest priority and should be done using only marine parts. As for price, you can get good quotes from any online site. I'd suggest using westmarine.com. Their prices will be the highest but that will give you some bargaining room. Unless you're handy, you should have the work done by a competent yard. Assume about $70/hr. Basically, think each repair through and estimate how long it would take you to do a first class job (in hours). Then double it and multiply by $70. Add in the cost of materials and double that too. Subtract the combined costs from your original bid and then reduce it 10% more. As a cross check, get sample vaues from yachcouncil.com, boatus.com or any number of online sites for a similar Catalina. Even though the asking prices are higher than the sell prices, you'll get a good idea of the market value of the boat. Since the surveyor looks at LOTS of boats I'd take his advice seriously.

Good luck! Your surveyor's list is not bad....you should have seen mine - it went for pages, but I'm glad that we bought "Victoria" and she's (now) an awesome boat.
 
#6 ·
The real problem is the 'value" of the boat. Everything probably could be fixed for a grand or two at most by a professional. (Much less if you follow PB's solutions and do it yourself.)
Problem is that your contract says $12k...so you can't say...it's not worth that cause you already agreed it was. Your choices as I see them are as follows:
1. Walk away and eat the cost of the haul and survey. This is legitmate if you say you were not aware of the problems and don't want to go forward since the contract is "subject to survey"

2. Offer $10K and take on the fix of the problems youself. You can legitimately say that you will walk away rather than pay $12K for a boat with the problems found. If you love the boat and it is otherwise in great shape, this may be high...but not "bad".

The one option I would not take is letting him make the fixes and paying $12K. The pictures looked like it was in much better tha average condition but I guess they were taken a while ago. The good news is that even if you walk away...you've learned some stuff and there are LOTS more C27s on the market. Good luck!
 
#7 ·
Just looked at the 27's on Yachtworld...my gut is that you are paying too much...unless the boat is in really great shape...

Have a couple of questions - how long did your surveyor spend at the boat ? At least two hours ? Did he check out the hull and deck with a little tap hammer ? What else did he do ? The reason I ask is that it seems a little unusual for a survey to come up that clean - ie, no moisture issues anywhere on a 30 year old boat sounds a bit unlikely...especially if the PO put in a VHF with a car speaker ... I would take that as an indication that he might not have been the most careful and conscientious in the maintnenance department...
 
#8 ·
Cam-

Thanks for the very succinct summary of his choices..
 
#10 · (Edited)
Offer him what the boat surveyed for. I bet you get it.
Its exciting isnt it;)
Be careful right now is the time to be real calm no use spending any extra needlessly. This is why you get surveys they can save you alot of money.
And trust me its going to cost you a lot more than 12,000:D DId the survey include a haul out?
Hope it all works out for you.

Hey Cam. IF its dependent on the survey it still works both ways right. if the survey said yes on 12 you would proceed but it didnt now the origanal offer is void Right?
 
#11 ·
Sailormann,

Yes, the surveyor did the tapping hammer thing and spent a total of 2.5 hours on the boat.

The moisture readings were actually "average" for a 30 year boat according to what he said, but nothing serious.


Thank you guys for all your suggestions so far - I am getting a clearer picture now.

I still like the boat a lot - and will actually enjoy doing some of the repairs myself to learn a few things.

I doubt the owner will make the updates/repairs, as he is in his 80s and his main reason for selling is he's too old/lacks strength, so he'd probably rather just get rid of the boat a.s.a.p

Kacper
 
#12 ·
There's a whole slew of "for sale by owner" C27's around here, all about 3-5,000. Don't know the years or the conditions, but keep seeing the notes at the post office amd hanging on the masts. Comes from Channel Islands Harbor Marina getting rid of a lot of smaller slips in favor of fewer BIGGER slips.
 
#13 ·
I am thinking of offering 8,000 K now after doing research tonight.

I am a first time buyer after all, and the broker knows that I was un-educated so it wont come as a big surprise. If I dont get it, I know there are al ot of other Cats on the market.

The haul out was cheap, just $100 :) on top of the survey, which was a little on the steep side, $455 - but I was happy with it.

Kacper
 
#15 · (Edited)
1. The propane heater doesn't need to come out, it looks like a catalytic heater. Very Safe and doesn't produce a visible flame. Definetly replace the propane hose. A solenoid shut off valve is required.

2. Fire Extinquishers are about $20.00CDN for a 5lb ABC, can be purchased from Wal Mart or any hardware store.

3.VHF radio, good time to get one with DSC calling anyway. Check out Binnacle or West Marine for price comparisons.

4.Navigation lights are not too expensive. Consider a Tri-light. to go on the top of the mast.

5. Find out from your local coast guard and/or the US Power and Sail Squadron what the requirements are for a sail boat less than 30'. This will help you determine what is required. As well, I would suggest that you consider taking their Boating courses.

6. There are not to many 27' boats with an oven. This is a bonus.

Finally, don't insult the seller by low balling the offer, be fair and be ready with a counter offer. Before you make the offer, get the owner to take you out for a sail if at all possible.

5.
 
#16 ·
Kacper - one thing I noticed in your replies is that it appears you didn't have a sea trial. That should have been part of the survey. If this deal should not go through, be sure the next time that the sea trial is included in the survey.
 
#17 ·
Kacper

You've gotten a lot of good advice above.. bottom line is-

The fixes and changes outlined by the survey are typical and you'll likely find the same with most any older boat you go after - extinguishers, flares, fuel hose, etc are going to be tagged in nearly every case. All of which is in the DIY category. The heater may well be an insurance liability.

Armed with this survey, I see nothing wrong with your current plan to offer something closer to the market value, as your original offer was subject to this survey.

The seller may well make a substantial move now that a deal is close - refusing will cost him more money as he is liable for moorage etc as long as he owns it.

As tough as this may be, act with your head, not your heart - as someone said, C27s are common as dirt - lots of them around.

Good Luck.
 
#18 · (Edited)
Read the Contract

Kacper said:
I am thinking of offering 8,000 K now after doing research tonight.

I am a first time buyer after all, and the broker knows that I was un-educated so it wont come as a big surprise. If I dont get it, I know there are al ot of other Cats on the market.

The haul out was cheap, just $100 :) on top of the survey, which was a little on the steep side, $455 - but I was happy with it.

Kacper
I assume you signed a purchase contract. No contract, ignore the rest of this post...

If you did, you have better read it very carefully and very quickly, what you can do is entirely constrained by the flexibility permitted to you by the contract. This is the type of situation where having a friendly contract (i.e. not one prepared by the broker) is essential, or you may have bought yourself a boat at the offered price.

Does the contract give you a time window to cancel based the results of a survey satisfactory to you. If so, be sure to send a written notice by registered mail before the end of the window!!! You can always go back a day later and make a new offer...

Read the contract and ensure you avoid ending up legally obligated to purchase the boat at the offered price because you havent exercised your out, if in fact you have a simple out.
 
#19 ·
Kacper said:
Now, the surveyor's main comments were "You're paying way too much for this boat" After he checked the market data, he came up with a fair market value of $7,800 for the boat. My intial offer was $12,000
You can register with www.bucvalu.com for a consumer account to look up book values for boats. I just checked this one and got Retail Price Range: $7,550-$8,650, so your surveyor's estimate seems in line.

You've already made an offer of $12K subject to survey, and the survey doesn't show $4K in problems. It might be best to cancel your offer and start to walk away. If they want to keep talking, you can show them the survey, make a fresh offer of $7800, and say take it or leave it. (Assuming the $7800 already takes into account the necessary repair work, otherwise, offer less.)

The danger is that you fall in love with this particular boat and the seller has an unreasonable expectation of its value. You're going to need that extra $4K soon enough, so no point in throwing it away.

I wouldn't worry that someone else is going to step in and snap it up in the mean time. If the seller won't budge from $12K, you can look around and if you don't find anything else you like, you can always go back and pay $12K for this one.

Good luck!

Tim
 
#20 ·
Kacper...SailingFool is absolutely right. Do not SAY or put in WRITING that the boat is not worth $12000 based on what your surveyor said. You already have a signed contract saying that it IS worth that much. You can (under most broker contracts) walk away if the survey is not to your satisfaction but you CAN'T walk away if you suddenly decide your offer was too high. Stating this may jeopordize your 10% deposit.
By all means...counter offer based on the SURVEY FINDINGS OF FAULT or Walk Away...but don't dig yourself a hole! Good luck!!
 
#21 ·
Hey guys,

Yikes :)

Well. I sent the broker an email today outlining my reasons for dropping my offer down to 8,300

I didn't come to read your other posts before doing so :)

So, yes, I did say what the surveyor gave me as the estimated value.

PBeezer: I did go on the Sea-trial :) The boat sails great, engine works good.

Anyway - what's done is done, I offered 8,300 - I hope it flies. They might come back with $9,000 or tell me to get lost. I'll keep you posted.

Kacper
 
#22 ·
While I didn't read your contract... I am hoping that your wording of your counter offer doesn't lock you into the $12000 original offer... which might or might not be the case. Good luck.
 
#23 ·
Any buc value average value presented by the surveyor could/should have been offered to you before the surveyor ever boarded this vessel or any contract signed. That way you could have made an informed decision as to the basic value of the grp hole in the water. Why would you ever want to pay 12K for a vessel when it's value is substantially less? I have walked away from a few boats that were priced unrealalistically high where the price of the boat was partly based on hope and not on actual market price. If you pay 12K for this vessel you probably will have some difficulty ever receiving anything close to that when its put back on the market at a latter date. The choice is yours and it is your money, and it appears as though you are making good decisions back to back. You seem to be quite savy for a first time boat buyer. Salute!
 
#25 ·
Hi sailingfool,

Actually - I didnt mention I had a 30 day window on the contract, from the time of the survey, to come up with the money that both I and the buyer agrees.

It also says I will only stick with my initial offer if the survey of the boat is to my satisfaction, if it is not, I can change the offer.

We signed a 30 day window because I wouldnt have the money for 30 days. So I have some room and time.

Kacper
 
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