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Go Back   SailNet Community > Skills and Seamanship > Learning to Sail > Using Jib and Genoa at the same time to create spinnaker
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Thread: Using Jib and Genoa at the same time to create spinnaker Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
12-22-2013 08:57 PM
svHyLyte
Re: Using Jib and Genoa at the same time to create spinnaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faster View Post
I've seen a light air 'drifter' that was a 2 ply sail on a common luff... tie the clews together to use it as a light air 'genny', split them on separate sheets and open it up butterfly style for running.. might make more sense than fighting two separate sails on hanks. - plus equal areas as you suggest.
Faster--

That rig was, for awhile, known as a "Twizzle Rig" and was quite a novelty although, as TDW noted in his post preceding yours, it did induce terrible harmonic rolling. The twin headsail rig was somewhat perfected later by Eric and Susan Hiscock (of Wanderer fame) who found/proved that twin head sails, flown "free flying" and tacked mid-way between the stem head and the forward lowers on either forequarter with poles angled forward 10º to 15º (to induce dihedral angle) with the main hard sheeted amidships and the helm free allowed a yacht to run off quite comfortably with minimum roll. Today, however, with reliable self steering and/or an auto pilot taking charge, running "down wind" at a gybe angle of 160º to 165º allows for comfortable sailing with maximized VMG under main and polled out Genoa or asymmetrical. One sails about 7% further but one's VMG is so much better that the added distance is more than off-set and one is much more comfortable as one's tea isn't constantly pitched off the galley bench, eh?
12-22-2013 06:35 PM
Faster
Re: Using Jib and Genoa at the same time to create spinnaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zac Penn View Post
Thanks that is very helpful. Instead of two poles couldn't you just drop the main, secure it and then swing it out and use it as a pole for one of the sails, then use a whisper pole for the other sail? I didn't look too hard at all of the picture but I didn't see someone doing that yet.

Zac
Your boom wouldn't swing forward enough to be an effective 'pole' for a headsail when running - you could get the wider sheeting angle, but not clew stability.

Using a proper whisker(s) pole will work better..
12-22-2013 06:19 PM
Zac Penn
Re: Using Jib and Genoa at the same time to create spinnaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by capt vimes View Post
This sail configuration is called in german passat sail...
It was developed at a time where wind vanes and autopilots where not very common... So you linked the two sheets back to your tiller or wheel and thus creating an effective self steering system...
But you needed to deploy 2 poles which the majority of the boats don't have, let alone all the lines for that...
Google passatsegel and look for images...

Oh and btw:
In this configuration you do not fly a main and thus the boat tends to roll...
With the main up, the center of effort of the sails is to leeward and hence stabilizing the boat... Without the main, the center of effort is at the centerline and then rolling is only to be expected...

Thanks that is very helpful. Instead of two poles couldn't you just drop the main, secure it and then swing it out and use it as a pole for one of the sails, then use a whisper pole for the other sail? I didn't look too hard at all of the picture but I didn't see someone doing that yet.

Zac
12-22-2013 12:19 PM
paulk
Re: Using Jib and Genoa at the same time to create spinnaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zac Penn View Post
Wow that sounds really cool. This kind of sail would keep you in the non-spinnaker class wouldn't it?

I am going out on the boat tomorrow so maybe i will play with this idea and see what happens. I am thinking about attaching the single halyard to both sail heads, attach the tack of the genoa to the deck and run a line from the tack of the jib to the deck this way the halyard can apply tension on both sails.
Check with your PHRF committee or Race Committee before spending anything. You may only be allowed to fly one sail on the headstay at a time, and the split/two-in-one jib might count as two sails. You may be able to get away with flying a second jib unattached to the headstay, but the halyard for that sail might do a number on your masthead sheave if it's not set up to take forces pulling to the side, like a spinnaker halyard is. (Use a spinnaker halyard for the unhanked jib.)
12-22-2013 10:01 AM
christian.hess
Re: Using Jib and Genoa at the same time to create spinnaker

that pic if Im not mistaken is from murray´s diy windvane book right?
12-22-2013 07:36 AM
capt vimes
Re: Using Jib and Genoa at the same time to create spinnaker

This sail configuration is called in german passat sail...
It was developed at a time where wind vanes and autopilots where not very common... So you linked the two sheets back to your tiller or wheel and thus creating an effective self steering system...
But you needed to deploy 2 poles which the majority of the boats don't have, let alone all the lines for that...
Google passatsegel and look for images...

Oh and btw:
In this configuration you do not fly a main and thus the boat tends to roll...
With the main up, the center of effort of the sails is to leeward and hence stabilizing the boat... Without the main, the center of effort is at the centerline and then rolling is only to be expected...
12-21-2013 09:29 AM
Sailormon6
Re: Using Jib and Genoa at the same time to create spinnaker

I have raced downwind on a boat flying the mainsail and twin gennys on a furler with two slots, in 18-25 kt winds. The boat was extremely stable, with no rolling at all. The second genny increased our boat speed about 3/4 kt. or more. With all three sails flying, the steering angle is narrow. You have to find the angle where the wind can get to all three sails without having one of the gennys blanketed by the mainsail. We tried it with one genny poled out and with both of them flying free, and they worked well both ways.
12-20-2013 09:39 PM
Zac Penn
Re: Using Jib and Genoa at the same time to create spinnaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faster View Post
I've seen a light air 'drifter' that was a 2 ply sail on a common luff... tie the clews together to use it as a light air 'genny', split them on separate sheets and open it up butterfly style for running.. might make more sense than fighting two separate sails on hanks. - plus equal areas as you suggest.
Wow that sounds really cool. This kind of sail would keep you in the non-spinnaker class wouldn't it?

I am going out on the boat tomorrow so maybe i will play with this idea and see what happens. I am thinking about attaching the single halyard to both sail heads, attach the tack of the genoa to the deck and run a line from the tack of the jib to the deck this way the halyard can apply tension on both sails.
12-20-2013 08:22 PM
Faster
Re: Using Jib and Genoa at the same time to create spinnaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulk View Post
Boats set up for flying twin jibs often have double forestays so each jib is hoisted on its own forestay. That way the hanks don't interfere with each other. A double-slotted roller-furler setup could work the same way. You obviously need two halyards to do this, and any roller-furler snafus would be twice as bad as they might have been otherwise. Most often people seem to fly two jibs of the same size - as in the photo above . This helps to keep the forces even and make it easier to steer a straight course.
I've seen a light air 'drifter' that was a 2 ply sail on a common luff... tie the clews together to use it as a light air 'genny', split them on separate sheets and open it up butterfly style for running.. might make more sense than fighting two separate sails on hanks. - plus equal areas as you suggest.
12-20-2013 06:57 PM
tdw
Re: Using Jib and Genoa at the same time to create spinnaker

Though I've never tried it myself, I've heard it said that the twin headsail arrangement induces the most awful rolling.
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