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Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

27K views 212 replies 28 participants last post by  Lou452 
#1 ·
Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

This guy is as hardcore as they come, one of the toughest sailors on the planet. Sounds like he and his crew are very lucky to be alive, after what had to be an amazing rescue, under extremely difficult conditions...

We were a little ahead of the front, downwind. There was a steady 43-45 knots [of wind], but it was manageable. We were prepared for this gale. We were under storm jib, with four reefs in the mainsail. Clearly, we really had the handbrake on, but in a wave the boat broke in two just behind the daggerboards.

"The mast did not fall immediately. We quickly closed all boat bulkheads and the rig fell over the stern. Very quickly we asked for help and organised our survival plan.

"We were prepared to leave the boat. The sea was huge, so we tried to assess the risk of damage to Cheminées Poujoulat. Damien and I tried to cut away the 60ft mast, but we did not succeed. It was really too dangerous. However, we managed to hold it a little below the water and stop it battering so badly against the hull. Afterwards we went inside and got all our survival gear together. We were not sure how long the boat would stay afloat."

Read more at Bernard Stamm rescue: 'I swam for my life' | Yachting World
Not a place I'd want to have to go swimming, during a storm on Christmas Eve...

 
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1
#3 ·
Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Holy Cow! Tough indeed!

Not the first time he's had to be rescued:



I guess when you push the envelope.....
 
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#16 ·
Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Not the first time he's had to be rescued:

I guess when you push the envelope.....
.... Someone else has to risk their life to pick up the pieces.

AFAIAC these sailors "pushing the envelope" offshore should have to pay every nickle of the cost of rescuing them and a healthy fine on top.

Maybe then they'll leave the envelope pushing for inshore waters and have properly seaworthy boats for offshore.

To my mind they're no different than skiers who go out of bounds.
 
#5 ·
Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Wow, that was a close one. Boats are supposed to be tougher than their crews, aren't they?? Not here. 45 knots of wind is difficult enough without your boat breaking in two. What price speed??

A hearty vote of thanks to these guys:

MV STAR ISFJORD (General cargo vessel): ship particulars and AIS position - IMO 9182978, MMSI 257615000 - FleetMon.com

Sailors are often prone to complaining about merchant vessels. But many more sailors would have been lost without them.
 
#6 · (Edited)
Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Wow, that was a close one. Boats are supposed to be tougher than their crews, aren't they?? Not here. 45 knots of wind is difficult enough without your boat breaking in two. What price speed??
....
Not very fast boats...or very fast cars for that matter: If you push them over the limit they break.

With the power these boats have they cannot stand full power in all conditions. It is up to the sailor to manage the boat and to keep it on a single piece.

But I don't think it was the case: they were on a delivery voyage with 4 reefs on the main and a small head sail.

Even if the boat had already one circumnavigation and several transats, many carbon Open 60s continue to race and to sail safely after more than 20 years and many racing circumnavigations. I would say a design or build problem that was revealed only now and in a very brutal way.

Regards

Paulo
 
#7 ·
Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

I didn't intend imply they were overcanvassed or such, as they were down to "a tablecloth and a handkerchief" as my father used to characterize it, and going downwind. And doubtless they need some sail to thresh through the seas and steer some kind of a track. They did indeed "have the hand brake on", well said.

It sounds like a pure structural issue. Which is what scares me. These are meant to be passagemaking craft? Or just speedsters? Every design is a compromise, but safety shouldn't be compromised.
 
#9 ·
Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

...
It sounds like a pure structural issue. Which is what scares me. These are meant to be passagemaking craft? Or just speedsters? Every design is a compromise, but safety shouldn't be compromised.
This are not only passagemakers but probably the safest and strongest sailboats around. It seems you don't know very well the class (IMOCA). If you were familiar with it you would know that they have pioneered almost all safety measures taken on modern racing sailboats today and are the ones with more demanding safety standards.

This is a class with dozens of years and many sailboats built. The main problems are canting keel failure, mast and rudder breakage. A broken boat is indeed very rare and I do not remember any other boat (in decades) with a catastrophic structural breakage.

This was a recent boat (2011) so even if the boat had already circumnavigated while racing and done a racing transat among other races.

As I said there are many IMOCA boats still racing after 20 years of active service that included several non stop racing circumnavigations (on the same boat) and many transats, facing big storms and resisting the huge efforts that these racing machines create on the boat structure due to the high speeds achieved.

Any boat can suffer from a bad design or from a defect in the building process and the ones that are more subjected to huge efforts are the ones where those problems can be felt in a more catastrophic way. Very rare as I said but obviously that should be investigated for not happening again.

Regards

Paulo
 
#15 · (Edited)
Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

But Paulo, this all-important "investigation" is not going to have the hull in question to examine to determine if/what the alleged structural defect was, correct?
Probably not but again I fail to understand you: If one boat has a catastrophic failure that it is unheard on similar boats built on the last 20 years years, boats that had made millions of miles and some still race after all that time, do you not consider fundamental to know what went wrong with that particular and single case?

By the way, I don 't understand why you mention 30K regarding the conditiuons were the accident took place. What Stamm said was that: "entre 43 et 45 nœuds de vent établis" that means 43/45K not counting gusting that with that sort of wind would go probably to 60K or over and even so he says it was manageable, saying that he had not saw the need for stop sailing and take evasive survival actions, like a floating anchor.

This should say to you about the type of boat we are talking about. In fact Stamm had already taken a lot worse in it and there are some photos around with the boat on worse conditions even if not the worse he had taken.



Since you don't know the boat I have been patient and I have tried to explain to you and all of what we are talking about (regarding the boat) but I am not interested in discussing this further. I know the boat, I know what I am talking about, if you want to thing otherwise without any evidence to support your " safety concerns" except a freak structural isolated accident in 20 years of racing around the world in these type of boats you are obviously free to do so.

Regards

Paulo
 
#25 ·
Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

O/K Paulo, you're right, I agree - risking the loss of your keel, rig, rudder or even entire boat is a perfectly acceptable tradeoff for higher speed when you're 1000 miles from land.
 
#27 ·
Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

O/K Paulo, you're right, I agree - risking the loss of your keel, rig, rudder or even entire boat is a perfectly acceptable tradeoff for higher speed when you're 1000 miles from land.
Not really convinced that eg an old Swan is better in this respect if the same kind of analysis is made as the flight companies are using, based on distance.

Sailing has changed dramatically the last 50 years. Then it was an accomplishment to just go around the globe. To do it single was extra ordinary, non-stop was not thought about.

Boats has changed, so has how they are used. Few racing are using the old traditional "survival" methods, instead sailing continues. Look on the fantastic photo on Stamm in a Force 10 in Biscaya.

This is of course extreme sailing. Not something I would like to do. But it does have a value, testing design and materials. May later in be used in "cruising" just as has been the case for decades.

Oh, and this about having to be rescued far far away. Risking others life, costly as well. Is this really an argument? Is it better with a 50 year old Swan? Or, any other kind of boat which for some reason starts to leak, hits something or whatever?
Should we prohibit sailing over large distances? That would be the ultimate consequence of such an argument.

/J
 
#29 ·
Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

ooooh I like the above comment too...there are many sides to this...race and race well and competitevily you will have to push stuff to its limits...ever sail a laser? bend masts, break tillers and rudders all the time

open class boats are basically planing laser hulls with outboard daggerboards and a long bulb keel...basically you can make a mini open 60 by modifying a laser to have dual rudders etc...rig some wires on outboard poles...etc...

in any case its far more common to have catastrophic failures on a race boat pushing limits mid ocean than mom an pop on a westail 32 out in the middle of the pacific doing an avergae of 5 knots!

me I like both...I still dream of buliding myself a mini pogo and do a solo transat or pac cup...but for now I plan to cruise...like I have done before.

just sayin

cheers

happy new year in advance

christian
 
#32 ·
Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

..ever sail a laser? bend masts, break tillers and rudders all the time christian
And the chase boat is right there to render assistance, you're not alone, 1000 miles offshore in bad weather - which is my whole point.
 
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#37 ·
Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Paulo, I never compared the Open boats to fuel dragsters, I compared the AC foiling cats to fuel dragsters.

If you want to regard the Open boats as the epitome of prudent seaworthiness, feel free.

This whole discussion is going nowhere so I'm out.
 
#38 ·
Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Paulo, I never compared the Open boats to fuel dragsters, I compared the AC foiling cats to fuel dragsters.

....
Yes, you are right, my bad. You have compared Open boats (imoca) with F1 and AC foiling cats with dragsters.

Did not noticed but anyway the comparison is not accurate: a dragster goes straight ahead and just for some seconds. The AC cats go for a considerable time around a course with many different changes of direction. In fact F1 is a much fairer comparison, not only in what regards changes of direction around a course as well as in what regards racing time and top high technology.

Regards

Paulo
 
#41 ·
Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Rather than a lifetime limit on "freebies" the CG should be permitted to examine your state of preparedness and determine from that if you should have to pay.

If you are experienced and on a well found boat but run into problems - that's why they are there.

If you buy a San Juan 24 for $500 and set off across the Pacific - you pay full freight, plus a penalty. :D
 
#44 · (Edited)
Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Rather than a lifetime limit on "freebies" the CG should be permitted to examine your state of preparedness and determine from that if you should have to pay.

If you are experienced and on a well found boat but run into problems - that's why they are there.

If you buy a San Juan 24 for $500 and set off across the Pacific - you pay full freight, plus a penalty. :D
That is something I agree. But it would not make sense to examine each boat that goes offshore, so minimum mandatory requirements and regular inspections to evaluate the boat condition (one in each 4 years for instance) and occasional random inspections make all the sense.

Anyway in the case of Stamm's boat or Stamm's qualifications they would find nothing to object. He was not even sailing solo this time. Rare freak accidents due to hidden defects will always happen from time to time no matter the boat.

If you find worrying a boat like an Open 60 and a sailor like Stamm crossing the Atlantic Ocean, even with a gale, what do you say about these things being allowed to cross oceans or to circumnavigate?



Aren't they a much bigger risk in what regards the need of a rescue with the consequent endangerment of other lives?

...
plus in any case a san juan 24 is a speck mid ocean as is even a 1000foot cruise ship
...
....
You are sayng that a Juan 24, or any other 24ft boat is as safe as a 1000ft cruise ship on an Ocean??????

Regarding most EU countries let me say that it is not the sailor that has to be qualified, or at least show that they are qualified to sail on an Ocean, the same happens with the boats that have to be certified class A but not only, they have to be equipped with the minimum safety equipment required for Ocean sailing. The boats are also mandatory inspected each 4 years ( I think that on a new one it takes longer to need an inspection and small variations happen from country to country). There are already an unified law in what regards boat requirements, not yet in what regards sailor qualifications.

Regards

Paulo
 
#42 · (Edited)
Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

what if that san juan was a marina derelict that was abandoned by an uninspired po owner..???

say it had new rigging, sails stowed inside an all it needed was bottom paint to be safe?

why would you penalize that boat?

I dont agree with that at all, after all before this 21 century and the nets...a 24 ft boat was considered mid size....and perfectly apt for ocean sailing...

plus in any case a san juan 24 is a speck mid ocean as is even a 1000foot cruise ship

I think if anything more focus should be on the skipper(as do many eu contries) and not the boat
after all even a measly san juan 24 is glass and we all know glass has yet to be determined how much REAL life span it has...

soooo with that said

carry on discussion

ps. I say this out os spite almost because for example my spanish captain that I sailed with almost 15k miles had to do sooooooooooooooooooooo much to even set sail, he had to be licensed by the spanish maritime academy only to be a pleasure captain....this just to set sail....

in the us and most western countries all you do is fix a boat and leave...many countries have extreme stringent laws to even aloow you to be on public waters...
 
#47 ·
Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Yeah Paulo, ask the Australian coasties how many of your long distance racers have had to be rescued in the Southern Ocean and you might come up with a different answer on the insurance question and WHO is actually being rescued.....mostly the guys on the hi tech go fast, surely never to fail race boats....mostly Euro dudes too. Oh and a few ladies.
 
#49 · (Edited)
Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Yeah Paulo, ask the Australian coasties how many of your long distance racers have had to be rescued in the Southern Ocean and you might come up with a different answer on the insurance question and WHO is actually being rescued.....mostly the guys on the hi tech go fast, surely never to fail race boats....mostly Euro dudes too. Oh and a few ladies.
That poses the question to know if in what regards sailing activities were a rescue is more probable, like offshore long distance racing, should not be a mandatory collective insurance regarding rescue costs. Certainly the cost of that divided to all would not be too high and it would keep things straight, I mean the risk takers would pay for their safety and not all tax payers.

Risk takers paying for their safety should be the right principle. The alternative is to regulate what is acceptable in terms of risks regarding a rescue. I prefer the first alternative.

..
You mean Australian tax payers like to pay for the rescue of European sail racers?:confused::confused:

Read again what I said. I said that it should be the racers and the organization to pay for the rescues trough a mandatory insurance as well as all that push the risk envelope beyond the reasonable.

Regards

Paulo
 
#50 ·
Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Found some interesting stats on the Vendee races.

Since it began there have been 138 total entries

DNFs amounted to the following;

18 rig failures.
14 miscellaneous - from medical issues to DSQ for receiving assistance.
11 rudder failures
9 keel failures
6 capsizes
3 lost at sea
3 went ashore
2 hull failures

That's a 48% DNF rate, 36% due to catastrophic equipment failure of one sort or another (assuming the capsizes & lost at sea were due to equipment failure).

You can draw your own conclusions but to my mind that list does not indicate a bunch of strong & seaworthy boats.

It looks more like a typical NASCAR race.

Details here Vendée Globe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
#51 ·
Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Found some interesting stats on the Vendee races.

Since it began there have been 138 total entries

DNFs amounted to the following;

18 rig failures.
14 miscellaneous - from medical issues to DSQ for receiving assistance.
11 rudder failures
9 keel failures
6 capsizes
3 lost at sea
3 went ashore
2 hull failures

That's a 48% DNF rate, 36% due to catastrophic equipment failure of one sort or another (assuming the capsizes & lost at sea were due to equipment failure).

You can draw your own conclusions but to my mind that list does not indicate a bunch of strong & seaworthy boats.

It looks more like a typical NASCAR race.

Details here Vendée Globe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Not exactly shining examples of successful design, are they?
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." ---Richard Feynman
 
#52 ·
Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

When I first started sailing some 45 years ago a very old sailor told me , "Never underestimate the power of the sea".
 
#53 ·
Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

When I first started sailing some 45 years ago a very old sailor told me , "Never underestimate the power of the sea".
Excellent advice...

Although, I suspect there are few people on earth less likely to underestimate the power of the sea, than a professional veteran of multiple Southern Ocean solo circumnavigations...



Seems a bit like reminding a Formula One driver, or a World Cup Downhill Racer, about the dangers of speed... :)
 
#56 ·
Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Looks like the sea floor rising rapidly there. That may have had something to do with the sea conditions, as could the first sign of current coming out of the channel.
Shows how marginally designed these, "designed by the worlds top experts " boats are. Looks downright fragile, something no cruiser would accept. This is a clear example of why cruisers should avoid like the plague, the gear designed for racing.
 
#61 ·
Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Context Jon.
Safety can be done. But who pays when problems arise?
These practices (boats having catastrophic failures) may lead to direct charges for all rescues if something doesn't change. The Feds are just beginning to tighten the belt and who knows where budget cuts are going? Inshore sailors are already financially responsible for towing, and if their boat sinks or washes ashore, the environmental clean up costs.
Ocean racing may be the last bastion of the Wild West, and that's fine. But who pays for their rescues and how do the payers benefit? Trickle down technology to the lesser mortals that just want to go out cruising?
Ocean racing needs to be responsible for it's events.
And Paolo, don't you see that you can build a boat that puts too much strain on itself and its crew? The whole shebang has to hang together in the toughest situations and cross the finish line to be of value. Otherwise it's just more junk fouling the ocean. And maybe a body or two.
John
 
#62 ·
Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

..
...
Ocean racing may be the last bastion of the Wild West, and that's fine. But who pays for their rescues and how do the payers benefit? Trickle down technology to the lesser mortals that just want to go out cruising?
Ocean racing needs to be responsible for it's events.
And Paolo, don't you see that you can build a boat that puts too much strain on itself and its crew? The whole shebang has to hang together in the toughest situations and cross the finish line to be of value. Otherwise it's just more junk fouling the ocean. And maybe a body or two.
John
you seem not to listen:

Racing offshore rescues are a tiny percentage of offshore rescues. The vast majority are just badly prepared cruisers or badly prepared boats, mostly old cruiser boats.

I have told you that the percentage of retirements due to boat breakage on the last solo circumnavigation race without assistance was 20%. They were racing and pushing the boats the way Jon showed on that video.

If they were sailing without pressure and at a more reasonable pace what would be the breakage? half of that?: 10% and if they were sailing just a bit over the speed of a normal cruising boat what would be the breakage? 5%?.

Take a look at normal cruising boats that are doing circumnavigations and see how many times they have to stop for making small repairs...or big repairs. Each of those stops would be the equivalent of an abandon on a non stop circumnavigation.

Making a circumnavigation without stop in any boat is a major accomplishment for the boat and for the material. Making one racing many times over 20K and have a retirement tax of 20% due to boat breakage is incredibly good...but not enough for them because to win they have to arrive and they want all to arrive: tomorrow offshore racing boats will be not only faster but also safer, as it have been happening through the years.

Regards

Paulo
 
#64 · (Edited)
Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Whatever the percentage of failures, one-of-three or one-of-five, it is too high by several orders of magnitude. How many of these boat designers have been on the Ocean when it's up on its hind legs, with a gale howling like a Banshee and shredding the tops off the waves, the wind and water clawing at the boat like wild things, probing for weakness?

Pioneer aviator Antoine de Saint Exupéry said "It seems that perfection is reached not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." Maybe the designers have taken too much away.

It seems the designers of these
probably the safest and strongest sailboats around
"high-performance" racing boats are hoping that they can get away with shaving off a few more kilograms of hull in hopes of gaining an extra meter-per-hour of speed while hoping the crew can avoid conditions that stress the boat beyond its limits.

Hope is not a plan.

Yes, there are fantastic new materials available, lighter, stronger, more resilient, et cetera ad nauseum. The Sea is still the Sea, and the designers have to design their boats to meet the worst she can dish out, not hope they never need the strength required to survive that worst, else they put the boats' crews and rescue crews at risk needlessly.

A 20% -- or even 10% --failure rate doesn't cut it. How much would you fly if 'only' one percent of airliners were likely to fall out of the sky? How much driving if 'only' five percent of automobiles were subject to catastrophic failure?
 
#66 ·
Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Whatever the percentage of failures, one-of-three or one-of-five, it is too high by several orders of magnitude. How many of these boat designers have been on the Ocean when it's up on its hind legs, with a gale howling like a Banshee and shredding the tops off the waves, the wind and water clawing at the boat like wild things, probing for weakness?
...
Obviously you don't know about the designers of those boats. some of them are very experienced offshore sailors, some even were offshore racers.

Funny that you consider that 20% in retirements due to boat problems is too much for a solo non-stop solo racing circumnavigation. I guess you don't imagine how hard is the material pushed over a solo circumnavigation that will represent more miles than most cruising boats will do during their entire life time:rolleyes:

Have a look at the ones that tried to circumnavigate non stop solo in cruising boats and you will see that the percentage of retirement is worse than that...and they were not racing, just trying to do it.

Besides one thing is to have to abandon the race for several boat problems other thing is not being able to sail the damaged boat back to port and to need to call for a rescue.

Do you know that on the last vendee Globe only one sailor had called for help and was rescued? and that all the others that retired sailed their own boats to port? Some even to the base port?

That make 1 in 20 or if you want in percentage 5% in what regards the need of a rescue.

Regards

Paulo
 
#65 ·
Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

context to all posters here...its not just the design of the boat its because you are pushing said boat to its limits...you can do this on ANY boat

all boats have a weak point....there is no be it ALL sailboat

simple
 
#67 ·
Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

We seem to be getting arguments for the sake of arguing. Jon and Paulo can you distill you position in the context of "Wow, a 60 ft sailboat broke in half while sailing down wind in 45+/- kts of wind with storm jib and quadruple reefed main"? The context summed up beautifully by "Too much engineering, too little boat"

The inversion test means nothing - no mast, no sails, no wind, no waves, no crew. How did the boat perform in the real world? It broke in half and sank leaving its crew to a very iffy, expensive rescue.

Ocean race organizers are not responsible for the events that unfold, yet governments around the world are? Really?

Comparisons with people out cruising suffering equipment failures and encountering storms is a red herring just as you would not compare F-1 auto racing with the summer vacation in the old station wagon.
Also, remember that all these statistical swaps suffer from the tyranny of small numbers.
John
 
#68 ·
Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

the inversion test is just to verify that when upside down the skipper has air pockets, that it will remain at a certain angle, etc...also that the boat itself will not sink completely.

the air pockets have been vital in saving some famous sailors...

I clearly remember reading a bit about this, some big catamaran too that flipped mid ocean and all crew stayed trapped inside waiting for help while they took turns signaling from the overturned amas...

didnt autissier do this too? cant remeber...

its a test that while not completely conclusive DOES add a major of known safety

again I stress that any design can be pushed to its limits...its not so much the design(yes there are faulty designs out there we all know that, BUT) any boat when pushed to its limits by sailors who cut there TOOTHBRUSHES IN HALF to save weight for example you multiply your chances of failure in some way by a million percent

anybody who argues this has never raced or been around race boats or anything race like

not for sake of argument but for reality sake.

they say speed kills right, well take that saying loosely and apply it to a boat, mid ocean...racing...NON STOP

is it the same hitting a rock at 5 knots or 30? is it the same plowing your bow into the next wave ahead of you because you are going faster than the waves or is it safer to be plowed from behind?

sorry that sounds weird but think about it...

anywhoo
 
#69 ·
Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Paulo- in another thread to paraphrase you "performance cruisers/racers will never understand cruisers" and the contrapositive. Think this thread suggests that truth.
Us cruisers have much of our material worth tied up in our vessels. We are interested in in getting there in one piece ( both our boats and ourselves). You say these boats continue to sail in what we would consider survival circumstances. We would throw out the jsd and put the saloon cushions on the sole and wait it out. You say these boats do untold miles before being retired. Our boats do decades of cruising with maintenance as time and money allow. You say these boats do 20kts. Before building my boat I had my bride cruise on a multi and did 20+kts. She said "never again".
You are right it is a different paradigm. I still find great joy in doing 200nm days on my boat but also find joy in the comforts of a solid cruising boat allowing the activities of daily living to be done without stress in a seaway. For many the need to minimize weight, maximize vigilance, degrade the ride and not include creature comforts degrades rather then enhances the experience. Jimmy repeats what Bob has said elsewhere "Weight is the enemy of speed". Jon notes these boats do what they can to decrease weight. Weight means additional structure. Additional structure means opportunity for additional strength. As availability of new materials or better use of existing materials has been increasing you are right race boats get stronger and safer. But Jon is right there is a point at which either due to expense, ease of maintenance, need for higher levels of vigilance, or degradation of comfort race boat advances have no useful meaning to cruisers. Yes that old Swan is a remarkable boat as are the new Swans incorporating more modern materials. Yes these racers are remarkable people taking their lives in their hands when they cast off. But Jon point is equally valid us cruisers don't want to take our lives in our hands when we cast off.
I think all these organized races should require all entries to contribute to a pit fund. In other words self insure. That way when any entity be it a government or ship is involved in SAR they would have funds available for re imbursement.
I also think getting on any boat and doing any passage with the expectation of any catastrophic failure rate is beyond my comprehension. Think these guys are the highest level of sailors well beyond the AC crowd and fully deserve to be the heroes that the people of France view them as.
 
#70 ·
Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

...
I think all these organized races should require all entries to contribute to a pit fund. In other words self insure. That way when any entity be it a government or ship is involved in SAR they would have funds available for re imbursement.
,,,
Hummm... these Vendee Globe guys with 20 boats circled the planet making an incredible number of miles on the worst seas of the planet and only one of them called for a rescue while on that recent cruiser rally near the American coast (just some few thousands of miles) three or four cruising boats called for a rescue and you think these racers should have a self insurance in what regards rescue?

I do not disagree but it seems obviously that should extend to all that go offshore according with the risks they are taking.

On the last two more radical races, the VOR and the Vendee globe only one boat called for help and was not able to reach port by its own means.

I have been following the Coast guards rescue calls and only on the last months they have been out offshore 10 times or more for the rescue of cruisers, many that seem badly prepared for what they are attempting or are sailing old boats in bad condition.

So yes, I agree, tax payers should not pay for the rescue of boaters that are there not for need but for choice and pleasure.

It should not be difficult for the insurance companies to do an insurance to cover rescue costs as I am quite sure they would be able to evaluate correctly what are the boats that are more vulnerable in what regards the need for a rescue, what seasons, what waters and what sailing experience the skipper has and charge prices accordingly with that.

I agree with you, it seems more than fair to me;)

It would also prevent crazy guys to go with unsuitable boats offshore because or they would not be insurable or they will pay so much that they will think twice before doing something as risky.

Regards

Paulo
 
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