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Go Back   SailNet Community > Out There > Cruising & Liveaboard Forum > Help choosing the project and the designer/naval architect.
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Thread: Help choosing the project and the designer/naval architect. Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
01-13-2014 07:54 AM
grafare
Re: Help choosing the project and the designer/naval architect.

Paulo,
I will definitely think about your comments. I am not concerned right now, because, as said before, I can stretch my budget if necessary and the overall result is worth of it. Let us put the discussion about where to build it and the budget for that aside for a while.
Best,
Guilherme
01-13-2014 07:25 AM
PCP
Re: Help choosing the project and the designer/naval architect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by grafare View Post
PCP: ....
The Atlantic project is fantastic, but I prefer the 51 instead of the 43 . On the same line, I like the Stadtship 56 Stadtship 56 Oester / K&M Yachtbuilders , designed by Van de Stadt and built by K&M. However, I don’t know if it has the same stability and seaworthiness. I am also into the pilothouse and hard dodger.
I like your design. So far, my list of requirements have the following items (some are also in your list/design):
A strong, fast, comfortable, functional and easily handled boat perfectly suited for both high latitude and tropical sailing. Ideal size, 45-55 ft. She must have 3 berths, to accommodate 6 (4 guests) people. A protected (center) cockpit and hard dodger fixed in plate structure. Unpainted aluminum hull above the waterline, centerboard (or variable bulb), shallow draft, fractional sloop (or cutter) rigged. A deck saloon with good all-round visibility. Good access to engine room. Well-designed stern with dinghy davits and a platform or scoop with a folding or retractable ladder. A larger-than-standard self-draining gas locker with space for additional tanks Retractable bowsprit, quick and easy access to the chain locker with a vertical drop to avoid the chain getting snagged, and a powerful and reliable windlass. A well-planned reefing system with lines led back to the cockpit, ideally to an electric winch. Well designed spaces for electric storage and generation by solar panels and wind. Bigger diesel (close to 1.500 km range) and water tanks. Lightning protection. Mosquito screen. Well insulated with thermo-acoustic protection. Good sailing capabilities in light and upwind. Dedicated workshop/garage. Light interior and decks (no wooden furniture/finishing), with minimum moving parts. Tempered glass windows. Watertight aluminum doors. Power generator. Diesel heater.
....
In respect to the cost of a NA, could you please give me ballpark figures?
The cost of building and equipping it in Brazil will be gigantic. Brazilian tax system is very complex and sucks. You end up being double taxed on many items. Work force, due to inflation, is currently very expensive. Equipment is imported, so you have to pay 100% taxes (at least) and the markup/service charged by vendor/importer.
...
The cost of the NA will be the last of your concerns if you are looking at boats like the Stadtship 56 or the Atlantic 51. Those boats will cost over a million and you were talking about 500 000 USD. Besides the VDS 56 is not a stock plan.

Regarding the stock plan you have refereed from Vand de Stadt it is one of the more modern among the ones that they propose (they tend to be all old designs) but the only similitude with the Atlantic is having a lifting keel. The hulls are very different.

Regarding the boat that once I intended to build, more than 10 years ago the estimated price would be around 400 000 euros, including the price of plans. I believe that today it will cost more than the 500 000 USD you have talked about.

More than 10 years ago the price of an Atlantic 43 was about 520 000 euros without VAT. Now it would cost certainly substantially more.

Regarding the price of plans if you are interested you have just to send an email to the NAs with stock planes that interest you, like Vand de Stadt or Dick Zall and ask. Regarding the prices of the plans for the boat that I intended to build, it was more than 10 years ago and I don't remember exactly the prices but I remember that changing the stock plan for what I had designed was not a significant difference, I believe it was something like 2000 euros.

But I have said plans, specially if stock ones are just a small percentage (maybe 5%) of the real cost of the boat. You should focus first on the budget you really have available because unless you can spend 3 times more than the figures you have talked about, considering sophisticated aluminium boats over 50fts or one offs makes no sense. That's all a question of money. If you have enough do just like SVauspicious suggested: Contact a good NA with experience in Aluminium boats and tell him what you want and I am sure he will be able to do it, for about 15% to 20% of the cost of the boat.

Regards

Paulo
01-13-2014 06:57 AM
grafare
Re: Help choosing the project and the designer/naval architect.

Copacabana: I am really not sure about the hull itself. Materials, power, workers and space rent are very expensive these days in Brazil. Argentina and Uruguay could be good possibilities, but currently there are substancial risks in Argentina.
01-13-2014 06:47 AM
copacabana
Re: Help choosing the project and the designer/naval architect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Yes it makes sense to use a good and experienced aluminum shipyard, or at least a crew that works for them but I guess they will be happy to build any good design from a any other NA. I saw what they have done and It seems well done but not really any design I really like.

Why do you say that the building in Brazil would be very expensive? I thought that it should be a lot less expensive than in Europe.

Regards

Paulo
Paulo, I believe you could build the hull cheaper in Brazil than Europe, but everything else like winches, hatches, pumps, ports, masts etc. would cost much more here because of the high taxes and small market. Argentina would be a good choice for building the boat as they have prices for parts almost on a par with the US.
01-12-2014 09:31 PM
grafare
Re: Help choosing the project and the designer/naval architect.

PCP: This Van de Stadt design looks very similar to the Atlantic 51 (or perhaps I am mixing apples and oranges!): Van de Stadt Design - Tonga 56
01-12-2014 08:48 PM
grafare
Re: Help choosing the project and the designer/naval architect.

PCP: Back a bit….I am not a “top sailor”, perhaps one day in not too distant future, but I am 43 years old “yet”, so, unless **** hits the fan, there is plenty of time to be an “ok” sailor. Hummmm, I am for real but some say this music was written inspired on me:
..... just kidding.
The Atlantic project is fantastic, but I prefer the 51 instead of the 43. On the same line, I like the Stadtship 56 Stadtship 56 Oester / K&M Yachtbuilders , designed by Van de Stadt and built by K&M. However, I don’t know if it has the same stability and seaworthiness. I am also into the pilothouse and hard dodger.
I like your design. So far, my list of requirements have the following items (some are also in your list/design):
A strong, fast, comfortable, functional and easily handled boat perfectly suited for both high latitude and tropical sailing. Ideal size, 45-55 ft. She must have 3 berths, to accommodate 6 (4 guests) people. A protected (center) cockpit and hard dodger fixed in plate structure. Unpainted aluminum hull above the waterline, centerboard (or variable bulb), shallow draft, fractional sloop (or cutter) rigged. A deck saloon with good all-round visibility. Good access to engine room. Well-designed stern with dinghy davits and a platform or scoop with a folding or retractable ladder. A larger-than-standard self-draining gas locker with space for additional tanks Retractable bowsprit, quick and easy access to the chain locker with a vertical drop to avoid the chain getting snagged, and a powerful and reliable windlass. A well-planned reefing system with lines led back to the cockpit, ideally to an electric winch. Well designed spaces for electric storage and generation by solar panels and wind. Bigger diesel (close to 1.500 km range) and water tanks. Lightning protection. Mosquito screen. Well insulated with thermo-acoustic protection. Good sailing capabilities in light and upwind. Dedicated workshop/garage. Light interior and decks (no wooden furniture/finishing), with minimum moving parts. Tempered glass windows. Watertight aluminum doors. Power generator. Diesel heater.
You are mostly welcomed to sail with me. Perhaps I will learn a bit from you.
Let’s postpone the discussion about where to build it.
In respect to the cost of a NA, could you please give me ballpark figures?
The cost of building and equipping it in Brazil will be gigantic. Brazilian tax system is very complex and sucks. You end up being double taxed on many items. Work force, due to inflation, is currently very expensive. Equipment is imported, so you have to pay 100% taxes (at least) and the markup/service charged by vendor/importer.
SVAuspicious: Thanks for the feedback. I would like to have a 45-55 boat, but I am just a little concerned about single hand it. German is already on my other list (a very long one), but not Jim. I will add him now, but according to Google, Jim works for Farr (and Farr is on my list).
Copacabana: Thanks. I like Thierry, but he seems to be very busy and charges a lot more than a foreign builder, and we still have many taxes on the top of it to make him less competitive. But I will definitely talk to him when the time comes. Regarding buying used, not an option at this point, for many reasons. By the way, I grew up in Copacabana, between Xavier and Bolivar.
Outbound: Kanter is on my list, thanks.

Best,
01-12-2014 08:19 PM
PCP
Re: Help choosing the project and the designer/naval architect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by copacabana View Post
Links:

.. Equipe Thierry Stump ..

Amyr's estaleiro is in Itapevi-SP, but I can't find the link to it right now.

Boa sorte!
Yes it makes sense to use a good and experienced aluminum shipyard, or at least a crew that works for them but I guess they will be happy to build any good design from a any other NA. I saw what they have done and It seems well done but not really any design I really like.

Why do you say that the building in Brazil would be very expensive? I thought that it should be a lot less expensive than in Europe.

Regards

Paulo
01-12-2014 02:51 PM
copacabana
Re: Help choosing the project and the designer/naval architect.

Links:

.. Equipe Thierry Stump ..

Amyr's estaleiro is in Itapevi-SP, but I can't find the link to it right now.

Boa sorte!
01-12-2014 02:46 PM
outbound
Re: Help choosing the project and the designer/naval architect.

Think the small 54' bougainvillea would fit his bill with Dr some mods. He may also want to speak with Ed Joy
01-12-2014 02:44 PM
copacabana
Re: Help choosing the project and the designer/naval architect.

Grafare, if I may add to the advice being given ... why not use Thierry Stump as your designer (he did Amyr Klink's Paratii 2) and use Amyr's yard outside S„o Paulo. They are both probably the best in the country for aluminium work. Personally, I'd buy something used in the US and go sailing. Any boat boat building project in Brazil is going to cost a fortune, as you probably know by now.
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