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Question about Genoa Car adjustment

21K views 47 replies 13 participants last post by  Rontoo 
#1 ·
Just bought a catalina 25. It came with a 130%(?) and a 150%(?) Genoa I think (they both come back past the mast, one more than the other). I have only sailed with the smaller one, I haven't raised the larger one yet. I know this because I checked both the sails out prior to purchase and one was big, and one was bigger.

My question is, how does one go about adjusting the Genoa cars, or rather what does one look for when it is time to move them and how does one know they are in their proper slots?
 
#2 ·
I cannot remember the track on the 25, but in general, you should pull the track aft as you increase the jib (to genoa) size.

Here would be the basic steps:

1) With the car approx where you think it should be, run the genoa out. I always sight the sails and make sure I have a full shape. If it is too far aft, the foot wil be tight and the head loose, the opposite true if too far in. You want a full sail, if that makes sense? (easier to show than explain).

2) Tack to the opposote track. That will take the pressure off the jib sheet so you can adjust the car on the winward track. Move it forward or aft until you get the desired shape.

3) Tack again and check your shape. Repeat until you have the car set correctly.

4) Count the holes/length back and set the opposite track the same.

5) Put a marker or piece of tape at that location so you know which holes/distance corresponds to that sail. Thus, you do not have to repeat the process twice. This is all part of learning your boat and should be done in a controlled environment. When correctly set, you will see all of your tell-tails flying the same.

That is how I do it. Others may have a different solution.

- CD
 
#8 · (Edited)
CAm I don't know how his track is, but here a few basic things. The traveler "neutral" position is an imaginary line from the middle of the luff thru the clew into the traveler. Normally...

Skrap,

The genoa traveller normally dictates how much twist and Bag will the genoa or head sail have. Full forward will give you more bag, make the sail "more rounded", and will normally give you more power, as the sail "camber" increases, causing more lift. Moving the traveller back will flatten the sail, making it more aerodynamic for stronger winds and or narrower pointing angles.
Think of it as a plane wing when its landing, they lower the flaps in the rear and the slats in the fron to make the wing have more lift, but speed is lower, if the plane was to fly faster that configuration would create too much drag.
To fly fast, the wing is really flat.

Traveler forward sail has more bag or curvature, traveller aft sail will be flatter.

How to set it, really comes with experience, as the wind picks up, or you point higher, a head sail with too much camber or bag (traveller forward), will stall sooner and start flapping, so as the wind picks up or you close the angle to the relative wind, you will need to flatten the sail (move traveller aft).

Start with the traveller in a central or mid position, in a position that is neutral. Then move the traveler forward, if you look at the sail, its bag moved towards the outside, this gives it more power, but less ability to point.

Then move it back and the sail becomes flatter, you will point higher, but have less power.

If the winds are weak, set them forward, slowly and see how the boat behaves, keep noting what happens when you move them, its intuitive.

If the winds are stronger, move the traveler back.

In light winds or when off the wind its normal to have the traveller forward, to increase twist on the sail, and as the wind picks up you will need to move the traveller backwards.

My traveller is controlled from the cockpit, we use genoa travel control when tacking (in some conditions), to help power the sails and accelerate the boat after it losses speed from tacking.

What we do is just before tacking we see where the traveler of the windward side is, move it forward if possible, then tack, the boat looses speed, but in this condition, with the traveler forward, the sail has more power, it helps accelerate, imagine 1st gear on a car, then as the boat accelerates, we start bringing the traveler back, and the genoa sheet also, and now that the inertia is gone, we shift 2nd gear....

So..start neutral, move forward for light winds and off the wind, and move backwards for strong winds and pointing higher.

If you have tell tales, start close hauled, and with traveler neutral look at tell tales the ones where the wind is blowing from must be horizontal. Look at the bottom tell tale, if it is shaking and not horizontal, move the traveler aft, if the top one is shaking, move the traveler forward. Simple. Tell tales are best to get the car in right position.

Then there is halyard tension, backstay tension, shroud tension... bla bla bla .....comeback after yoiu found where to put the traveler we will explain the rest....

Here's a pic of my traveler with remote adjustment. Good very very good...



The next photo shows that under normal use, as you pull the sheets, the traveller wants to move back, we allow that to hapen by releasing the traveler control (that only pulls the traveler forward). Its the white rope that is loose



I really have to go, I am sure someone else here might help with better terminology.

Bye
 
#9 ·
Setting the lead

skrap1r0n said:
....My question is, how does one go about adjusting the Genoa cars, or rather what does one look for when it is time to move them and how does one know they are in their proper slots?
You need a set of telltales on the jib luff. To set the genoa car, when sailing closehauled, slow luff up, if the upper telltale stalls first (lifts up/drops/whatever) move the car forward a bit. If the lower telltale stalls first, move the car back.

The car is in the right position when all luff telltales break at the same time.

See http://www.dolphinsails.com/pdf/Dolphin_Sail_Setting_1.pdf for more info.
 
#10 · (Edited)
Giu-

Do you have the white line marked for the different positions for the genoa at various reef points or for various sized headsails.

A friend of mine put different colored whippings at the various points for "neutral" settings for the different head sails she uses. :D Makes adjusting the genny cars a lot easier for newbies on her boat... since she can get them into the ball park by saying pull the blue genoa car control line to the "red" whipping for the 110% jib and the "black" whipping for the 150% genoa and so on.. and then tweak it by looking at the telltales or for the wind conditions.
 
#11 · (Edited)
If you are just learning to use the genoa, and if your boat has a knotmeter (speedometer) then the easiest thing to start with is to go out on the water when the winds are not very strong. You will need a crewperson to help. Set the mainsail traveller car so that it is in the dead center of the boat and adjust your mainsheet so that the boat is sailing with very little heel, as close to the wind as you can get.

At this point it doesn't matter where your genoa car is (as long as the genoa is up and the genoa sheet is going through the block (pulley) on the genoa car). Start moving your car back and forth and look at your knotmeter to see what effect it has on your boat speed, also note what it does to your angle of heel, and how close your boat can sail into the wind. Don't adjust the mainsail at all, and have your crew maintain as steady a course as possible. Use your genoa to control your boat.

Then tack - without touching the mainsail - and experiment again on the other leg. Giu has explained the theory of it for you. Print his post and take it with you so that you can understand how it affects your boat. You may find a slight difference in adjustment is required between port and starboard depending on how true your keel is, how much weight there is on either side of your boat, and how evenly tuned your rigging is. Then again - you might not notice anything for a few years ;)

Keep practising in various types of wind and water conditions. You will be surprised at how quickly you start to develop a feel for your boat. Expect to find a difference between the two Genoas, as the difference in size changes the location of the center of effort on the boat. Enjoy :)
 
#12 ·
my boat has absolutely no instrumentation yet, fun, I know.

At any rate, my cars lock into the rail with a springloaded plunger, so I cannot really adjust it on the fly, I have to set one when the opposite sheet is loaded. I can see the advantage of having them adjustable while loaded, and I may seriously consider something like that when I replace my running rigging and organize my lines, if it's worth it on a 25 footer.
 
#13 ·
If you're going to race the 25' footer... yes, it is definitely worth it. If you're just going to cruise and day sail... maybe not worth the extra cost... Usually it can be retro-fit to the existing rails, by buying new genoa sliding cars and the block and tackle for the rail... but not always. In the case of a retrofit, it isn't all that expensive a move usually.
 
#14 · (Edited)
sailingdog said:
Giu-

Do you have the white line marked for the different positions for the genoa at various reef points or for various sized headsails.
SD I have different sails so marking the line is not possible. I have the track marked with numbers, and a scale, that's what we use for reference.

Scarp. "coverting" the point by point genoa traveler to a adjustable one is easy and not so expensive.

You'll need:(times 2 off course)

1)a track stop (that you may already have, if you do just glue a rubber bumper to absrob the shock when the traveler comes aft
2) A track horizontal bolck or you can bolt a regular foot block, in front of the track
3) a line
4)jaw cleat
5) 1 hour of your time and time to remove the locker pin on traveler

That's all;) ;) ;)
 
#15 ·
Adjustable cars

skrap1r0n said:
... any rate, my cars lock into the rail with a springloaded plunger, so I cannot really adjust it on the fly, I have to set one when the opposite sheet is loaded. I can see the advantage of having them adjustable while loaded, and I may seriously consider something like that when I replace my running rigging and organize my lines, if it's worth it on a 25 footer.
The ability to adjust the car under load is only of value for hard core racing, you can change the setting under sail simply by a brief luff up whichunloads the sheet...
If you want to improve the performance of your boat, get the car off the rail and onto a inner track to provide a closer sheeting angle. Such an angle will allow your boat to sail 3 or 4 degress closer to the wind, and provide a remarkable improvement in VMG (speed up wind). some race boats have adjustable cars, some don't, but NOBODY races with the genoa trimmed to the rail.
 
#17 ·
Giulietta I'm drooling over your boat and traveling genny cars. :D

No-one's mentioned that your head sail and main work together yet, just to make matters more complicated... ;P To see this play around as sailorman mentioned, but then once you have a handle on it start adjusting the main as well , experimenting with different traveler positions, etc. Watch the genny change shape...

I personally find the Annapolis book of Seamanship's section on sail trim (chapter 3) to be a good basic introduction.

An excellent exercise in general is to learn to sail your boat 'rudderless'. Lash it to the center of the boat and use just your sail trim to steer. :D Try to sail someplace complicated this way.

Ok, now you will be busy all summer just sailing in circles. hahahahaha.
 
#18 ·
everyone is gonna poop on me for saying this, but if the winds are light just hand the tiller to someone reliable and go up there sit or laydown and wank on the sheet right near the clew to check out all sorts of things. <ducks and heads for cover>

I've been sailing catalina 25s a lot the last few years and they are nice little boats, I found the bigger head sail was required though. Do you have the tall rig? What are the prevailing conditions where you sail?
 
#20 ·
tenuki said:
everyone is gonna poop on me for saying this, but if the winds are light just hand the tiller to someone reliable and go up there sit or laydown and wank on the sheet right near the clew to check out all sorts of things. <ducks and heads for cover>

I've been sailing catalina 25s a lot the last few years and they are nice little boats, I found the bigger head sail was required though. Do you have the tall rig? What are the prevailing conditions where you sail?
No, I have the standard rig. I would like to have the tall rig and use the standard main on it so I could raise my boom and install a bimini. (I would also like to run my lines inside the mast, but a new spar isn't in the books anytime soon.)

Interestingly enough, I just picked up a Garmin Etrx Legend C this weekend. I justifie it in that it will work for both the non existent compass and the non existent knotmeter that my boat came with. I can also use it on my motorcycle, and in the car. Nice unit actually.
 
#21 ·
Skrap-

Be aware that the GPS doesn't work as a compass unless you're moving. It can't give you a direction if you're sitting still, as it uses changes in the GPS reading to determine your heading. The GPSMap 76CS does have a fluxgate compass and altimeter in it, which doesn't require you to be moving.

FYI, raising the boom, while a convenient idea, isn't always a good idea, as it will move the Center Of Effort upwards, increasing the weather helm on the boat and such. Not all that ideal for a smaller, less stable boat.
 
#22 ·
I am aware of the GPS compass issue. Fortunately, I have a pretty inherent ability to know roughly which direction the 4 points lay, as long as I am outside.

Regarding raising the boom... The cat 25 comes with 2 options, the standard and the tall (I believe the hull is the same). Now, I understand that on the tall rig, you have more sail area, and maybe I am not understanding all the dynamics at work here, but wouldn't using a shorter, standard mainsail on a tall rig with the boom raised, be no different really than sailing with the tall rig with the main reefed?

Or is the difference in dynamic because the boom would be further from the centerline of the hull?
 
#23 · (Edited)
The key here is 'Center of Effort'. Think of the forces of the sail being generated from the geometric center of the sail (not true, but hey, gotta start with something easy with no math.. ;) ) If you raise that point up, you are raising the 'center of effort', which means more heeling moment, change in the portion of the hull that is below waterline, how that interacts with the 'center of boyancy', and 'center of balance', etc.

for a reefed main the center of effort lowers the more you reef, which is what you want along with less square footage to catch the wind lowering the power. What you are talking about raises the center of effort, resulting in many bad things.

Spinnaker Sailing Online Sailing Course = Lesson 2

doesn't talk about the center of effort in relationship to the rest of the forces in the boat, but the picture is useful.
 
#24 · (Edited)
skrap1r0n said:
Or is the difference in dynamic because the boom would be further from the centerline of the hull?
Got it in one... the whole sail has shifted upwards, so the center of effort for the main sail has effectively shifted up by the same amount. The boom on the tall rig version isn't any higher than the standard rig IIRC, so reefing it brings the center of effort down, not up...

Another point I should have made earlier... moving the boom up and using the tall rig, increases the weight aloft effectively, by raising the Center of Gravity of the boat slightly. The boom is now x-feet higher...so the keel has more weight working against it... combine that with the higher Center of Effort, you're starting to get a more tender boat... Do you like swimming???
 
#25 ·
sailingdog said:
... Do you like swimming???
Gotcha! I love swimming, but only in a planned circumstance. I already had one kid yell at me. He was asleep crosswise in the V-berth and came out yelling at me when the boat heeled unexpectedly. He was complaining about being asleep one minute and standing on the wall the next minute. He wasn't happy, I thought it was funny. (the boat didn't heel that much, just to the rail, but it was a sudden gust...)
 
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