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Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest > General Discussion (sailing related) > 10K$ boat --- Are Insurance and Survey REALLY mandatory?
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Thread: 10K$ boat --- Are Insurance and Survey REALLY mandatory? Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
02-02-2014 10:40 PM
TakeFive
Re: 10K$ boat --- Are Insurance and Survey REALLY mandatory?

Joining this thread late. What can I say that has not already been said?

OK, here's sumthin:

Quote:
Originally Posted by robertluster View Post
...An old, leaky, unsafe boat out on the open water seems MUCH preferable to that!..
You apparently have not been out in the open water in a leaky, unsafe boat.

Good luck pursuing your dream. A lousy boat will spoil your fun (and possibly your life). Take your time and find something good.
02-02-2014 02:07 PM
joethecobbler
Re: 10K$ boat --- Are Insurance and Survey REALLY mandatory?

aelkin-
respectfully I'm not interested in automatic respect.
I was attempting to represent that I am not a complete uncaring ass without regard for others by giving an example of my voluntary military service. apparently I missed my mark with that.
as for serving almost anyone can,they are always looking for new talent. at 28 it was a bit of a change, but nobody forced me and the check never bounced.
now back to our regularly scheduled topic already in progress.
02-02-2014 11:47 AM
davidpm
Re: 10K$ boat --- Are Insurance and Survey REALLY mandatory?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bljones View Post

I like kicking around boat yards and checking out boats, because that is the kinda guy i am. I can fumble my way through most boat systems and can likely figure out what i need to know- but as hard as it is to believe, not everyone is like me.

So, if you don't like that sorta stuff, if you are a clean hands sailor, (lots of them out there- it is why yards stay in business) how good is your self-survey going to be, and how much do you NOT want to do it?
Your point is very important.

Another thing that hasn't been mentioned before is that even very experienced professionals can make poor decisions on their own potential boat they would never make on a customers boat.
If fact due to their experience it may be easier for them to underestimate costs.

I have seen pro's fall in love with a boat because of the pedigree, lines, low price etc and convince themselves they can rectify all the faults quickly and cheaply.
If it was a clients boat they would have given an accurate appraisal of the costs and condition.

But because it was their own dream they were particularly convincing and capable of fooling themselves.

There is something about your own potential boat that makes otherwise level headed guys go all gooey.
02-02-2014 11:03 AM
bljones
Re: 10K$ boat --- Are Insurance and Survey REALLY mandatory?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aelkin View Post
As far as surveys go, if you don't need one for the insurance, don't get one. Buy Don Casey's book, get permission to spend the day on the prospective boat, buy a six-pack, a bag of ice, and make yourself a couple PB&J sandwiches. Spend the day getting close to your new boat. If you can't find anything that makes you worried, don't worry. If you can't negotiate a lower price without a survey, you're not a very good negotiator. (sorry BLJ)
No need to apologize. Your interesting point above brings up a couple of questions which also play into the survey/no survey question:
What is your time worth?
Are you someone who likes working on things and understands how they are supposed to work, and can inspect a boat and actually know what you are seeing?
You'd be amazed how many people can't, and maybe slightly less amazed at how many who can't, but think they can.

Regarding that "what is your time worth?" question- a good pre-purchase survey (not an insurance survey or appraisal survey- whole different kettles of fish. boatpoker has a great explanation on his great website: My fee Schedule and why marine surveys cost what they do ) on a 30-35' boat should take at least 3 hours.


I value my spare time at $150/hr. that is what the little spare time I have is worth to me. So, if I am going to inspect a boat in Bayfield, for example, 3 hours away, it is gonna cost 6 hours of travel, plus 2-4 hours of poking around- that is near enough to$1500 of my time to do something that someone else, who is likely better at it than I am, would charge half that or less. I know I know, that $150 spare time value is imaginary. But it isn't, really. If you have to do your DIY survey on a workday, you've lost a day that needs to be made up, that has to come out of your spare time- your spare time always has value.

I like kicking around boat yards and checking out boats, because that is the kinda guy i am. I can fumble my way through most boat systems and can likely figure out what i need to know- but as hard as it is to believe, not everyone is like me.

So, if you don't like that sorta stuff, if you are a clean hands sailor, (lots of them out there- it is why yards stay in business) how good is your self-survey going to be, and how much do you NOT want to do it?


Regarding your assertion: "If you can't negotiate a lower price without a survey, you're not a very good negotiator."

Of course you can negotiate a lower price- but a survey in hand will allow you to negotiate the LOWEST price. Bear in mind when a survey is occuring- as a condition of sale.
You have already negotiated the best price, subject to survey. Then the surveyor finds something you missed, or something you didn't think about or found an elevated moisture reading around every stanchion that you didn't notice when you were jumping up and down on the foredeck during your pre-purchase inspection.
A survey that notes deficiencies re-opens the negotations... and there are always deficiencies.
02-02-2014 09:56 AM
aelkin
Re: 10K$ boat --- Are Insurance and Survey REALLY mandatory?

Quote:
Originally Posted by joethecobbler View Post
guess what else, I don't pay for health insurance either!
YOU are paying it for me! through the VA, 100% for life, no copay,free meds,glasses you name it ,and a service connected disability as well! God bless America ,sure glad I got that 2 year Korea deployment, it sucked being there, but sure panned out in the long run.
"At the breech" 1st.Eng. "mission first "2nd.ID
see ya on the bay tough Guy.
Joe;
I don't need substance to form a personal opinion of someone...but since you asked - here's the part where I went from 'I don't agree with him' to 'I don't respect him'.
Honestly, up until this point, I was interested in your point of view. When you cut through the wide-reaching animosity towards the world at large, you made some interesting points, and some shrewd analyses of the insurance situation as a whole.
However, when a veteran throws a line like this at a civilian, all the basis (in my mind, anyway) that afforded the vet some level of automatic respect goes out the window.

That's my only point.
I don't need to continue this conversation, but if you'd like to, PM me, and let's move it somewhere else so we don't continue to hijack the OP's legitimate questions with our discussion.

Andy
02-02-2014 02:27 AM
neverknow
Re: 10K$ boat --- Are Insurance and Survey REALLY mandatory?

Quote:
Originally Posted by robertluster View Post
Well, Thanks just loads for the heads up, but corrupt lawyers, insurance companies, and a particular nameless hospital are the reason my IRA and 401K and ex wife all went "poof". I'm thankful for the ex-navy surgeon that worked on me - but all the rest should be lined up against a wall somewhere... If anyone were to EVER try to collect 5 or 6 digits from me again, they will just have to suck hind teat - and it's dry...
If you were ever in the military (no matter when) and you have no income or assets you can get free VA medical. Check into it. The VA made some changes in the past few yrs. More ppl now can get medical that couldn't before.

As far as the rest insurance. Just buy a boat US membership for $150 a year and when a marina ask for insure proof flash them your card. Unless you plan to stay in one place more than a few nights I doubt they will careless. If they do just move on.

Sounds like you have had some bad luck, you might as well take advantage of the fact you have been cut free. There are many people reading this who wish they could be so lucky. It's just so hard to give up our cushy lives and just go. You had that done for you. Wish you the best.
02-02-2014 12:01 AM
jimgo
Re: 10K$ boat --- Are Insurance and Survey REALLY mandatory?

Joe,
Thank you for your service. We owe men and women like you a very deep debt. I didn't serve, grew up in an area of the country where a lot of my teachers weren't all that enthusiastic about the military. But as I worked for the Coast Guard, on Navy contracts, for Congress, etc., I came to appreciate just how much you guys sacrifice for the rest of us, no matter how short or long your tour of duty. I'm also sorry to hear about your business. It sounds like you had a pretty good run there for a while. But it also sounds like the new gig, especially the ability to help others, is more personally rewarding. I hope, in the end, that it leads to much happiness with you and your family.

Thank you also for keeping an open mind as this thread has progressed. BLJones, David, Maine, and others have said more eloquently what I tried to say, and it seems to have sunken in. I regularly sail with my family (actually, that's basically the only time I sail). So, in my mind, as I read your comments, I was envisioning an accident in which I not only damaged someone else's boat, but also hurt their family. The thought of walking away and sticking someone else with the cost of care is something that I can't bear. Hopefully you'll find that the cost of the insurance will be insignificant compared to the peace of mind that it gives.
02-01-2014 09:54 PM
aelkin
Re: 10K$ boat --- Are Insurance and Survey REALLY mandatory?

To the OP - get the bare minimum of liability insurance. As others have expounded very well, it's not for YOUR property, but for the property of others that your actions might impact.
If a survey is required to get that insurance, then suck it up and pay for it. it'll be a fraction of the cost of ownership. I don't suspect that will be the case, though.
As far as surveys go, if you don't need one for the insurance, don't get one. Buy Don Casey's book, get permission to spend the day on the prospective boat, buy a six-pack, a bag of ice, and make yourself a couple PB&J sandwiches. Spend the day getting close to your new boat. If you can't find anything that makes you worried, don't worry. If you can't negotiate a lower price without a survey, you're not a very good negotiator. (sorry BLJ)

To joethecobbler. I'm sorry. You irritate me. I'm Canadian, I'm responsible, and I haven't mis-spelled a word in 10 years. I work hard at that. (point is on the way, wait for it...)

Like you, I struggle with the quoting on this site. So - I'll just wing it from memory. You telling people in general that 'if they're (sic) not mechanically inclined, or incompetent, maybe they should just not buy a boat' is grossly unfair, condescending, and mean. It would be like me telling YOU, a man who has made over 100 grammatical and spelling errors in THIS THREAD ALONE that he should not be allowed to operate a keyboard.

As many others have stated, your attitude is irresponsible. I respect your right to choice. I do not respect your comments about how others are paying for your benefits because you spent 2 years deployed. Because I'm Canadian, I feel no patriotic obligation to tell you that I owe you something for serving a country.
Jerks serve in the military for selfish reasons all the time. Trust me, I know some.
Good men don't throw the benefits of their sacrifices in the face of others - regardless of the nature of that sacrifice.

Best of luck to the OP.
Cobbler - I hope your boat never ends up within 100 miles of mine. We'll both sleep better that way.

Andy
02-01-2014 03:38 PM
Maine Sail
Re: 10K$ boat --- Are Insurance and Survey REALLY mandatory?

One of the sport fishing boats I worked on in my youth was t-boned while sitting in its dock slip by a 20 something in an uninsured Sea Ray type boat full of "babes in bikini's"...

The owner had a 1% hull deductable which amounted to about 19k. When the owner discovered the kid had no insurance, and that this was his second uninsured incident, he let the lawyers out of the cage..

Long and short that kid was still paying for those damages for nearly 10 years.... He was lucky the owner only went after him for his deductible because the owner paid the 40k + out of his own pocket to repair the damage.

He did not believe his insurance company should be coughing up for it. In reality he let the kid off pretty easy.. When I asked why he did it he said the kid needed to learn that life and your actions carry responsibility..... He said his responsibility was to pay for the poor choices he'd made.... He also believed that doing this was his moral obligation to society and if he did not he was just par of the problem.. To this owner 19k was a drop in a bucket and his whole point was to drive the point of responsibility home to a kid who had none, TWICE...

This was an owner who I sat I a parking lot with for 40 minutes waiting for another car owner who's door he "dinged" when a gust of wind ripped his door fom his hand. He tried very hard to write the young lady a check but she refused and claimed she could not even see the damage... I lost 40 minutes of my life but learned a lot about Richard and how he felt about personal responsibility..

If you can afford & you are self insurred, to go up against an owner like Richard, and pay the dues and the consequences of an accident, by all means go for it..... That accident was a few inches fron going from 40K to six figures and this was not a high speed at all just a moment of inattention..
02-01-2014 12:13 PM
hellosailor
Re: 10K$ boat --- Are Insurance and Survey REALLY mandatory?

I would guess that the insurance which marinas themselves carry (for the customer boats) is something like "excess coverage" insurance. That is, the marina's insurance policy kicksin AFTER the first 1/4 million, or 1/2 million, or whatever amount the tenant is required to carry, and in the usual insurance rate manner, they marina pays a different premium based on when that coverage kicks in.

So if the marina requires you to carry 1/4 million of liability coverage, maybe they pay 1% of the value of the boats over that. If they require you to carry 1 million in coverage...maybe they pay 1/4% of the value over that. One way or the other, I expect the numbers are all a wash at the end. Either you're paying for your own insurance (not a bad idea) or your slip/storage rate is paying for it via the marina's overhead.

Unless of course you've got one of the marinas that simply carries no insurance, in which case if you've got none either...you're helixed. (A euphemism I'm forced to use in some PG-13 web forums.)

(Percents above taken from thin air, anyone who has real numbers, feel free to provide them.)
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