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need help and advice -mid cruise keel crack

15K views 113 replies 24 participants last post by  Delta-T 
#1 ·
Hi
We're headed to honduras in a recently purchased 1969 36' C&C Frigate. She's been a great boat, and took us across from Florida to San Pedro in 6 days! The issue is once we arrived here and took a bit of respite from the norte's causing the gulf current to stack up 8' against 30-40kt winds was after doing a routine dive on the hull we've got a 8" vertical crack in our keel, from the bottom up, about an inch wide in the lead. I'm not sure how to proceed. I don't have photos yet but i'm working on it. it's from the base of the keel vertically up 8" or so, on both sides, and about 3/4" - 1" wide.
I imagine when we got into the interesting weather situation a preexisting crack from a previous grounding must have worked open as the boat flexed in the swell.
I can keep it in calm water and get to rio dulce, or if I can find out this is going to sail I can continue to utila and do the ~80m crossing, and then get to rio dulce later as planned and pull the boat. It made it across the gulf of mexico, the yucatan current, and a series of whuppings so far.
I know this isn't good, I'm trying to find out what I need to do to get it repaired. what is a guy at a yard going to tell me needs to be done? I just bought the boat a week ago, it's officially for sale now, not that it'll be easy to sell after this, but yeah... there's a crack in my keel. not good. all advice is appreciated, we're forced to leave on monday due to our visa limitations, so we're scrambling.
Thank You for any advice,
Best;
-Chance.
 
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#75 ·
That sure looks like a factory joint that the filler broke out of. Possible cause I see--the CB broke loose slammed into the forward end of CB trunk cracking out the factory filler. The yard worker did not clean it properly before refilling and it cracked out. I do not know prices in Honduras but I would think 10-15 hours + materials. It does not look like a difficult job, hardest part manhandling CB in and out, If I did it I would grind it down and glass over it rather than rely only on filler on a joint that wide. Only my opinion IIWMB,(if it was my boat).
 
#79 · (Edited)
Seems an excessive gap for a factory fit..

Lack of tension. If the hull structure is giving way, bending. The movement would be exaggerated at the bow and stern and the stays would be noticeably slack.
I see what you mean... that kind of deformation could be caused by excess rig tension in the first place, but seems more likely on a lighter-built fin keeler.

The idea of a CB drop jarring things loose is interesting.. It would be good to know just how it's currently "pinned"
 
#81 ·
Having seen your video (nice job) you are looking at the exposed keel hull join. The fairing filler has fallen out for any number of reasons- probably just old brittle polyester body fill- but a cosmetic problem as I see it. Back in the old days, marrying up the lead keels to the keel stubs was not an exact science. Liberal amounts of filler was added to create a fair surface. When you get around to hauling & re-fairing, it would be a good idea to re-torque your keel bolts before starting the work. I worked for builders back then.
 
#84 ·
The above advice is not likely to be correct, much as you might like it to be.

Something structural has clearly deformed or broken to allow the front part of the keel to rotate away from the center.

While it could be old damage I would think it more likely to be recent. Strap it up and get it to a haulout facility. I would have a very close look at the internal structure at the very front oif the keel. I suspect you fill find upward deformation.

Oh and an FYI polyester body filler is not suitable for underwater use.
 
#82 ·
That's potentially awesome news, I'm really glad I got that video up.
I was going to sail it back to FL and sell it, but I think it'll end up in rio dulce, in a yard, getting fixed and then going up for sale. If the weather is bad for my window to sail, I'll take it to Roatan, pull it, get it fixed, and put it up for sale.
Either way, she's for sale, it was the initial plan to do the excursion and then try to get some of the money back (never really to make anything, I expected to take a hit, but I didn't expect to find this.).

Either way it's ~150mi to Rio D. , half of which is relatively exposed, and ~40mi to Roatan. Rio Dulchisme has better facilities / brokers / community, I'd like to get it there.
 
#83 · (Edited)
I think you should contact C&C yachts. You might need to sweet talk someone to get to someone who know. You need one of their engineers who can look at the actual drawings. Tell him you won't hold him responsible, but you are stranded and you want an educated guess. They would have the insight to actually know.

Contact C&C
Tel: 401-247-3000
Email: sangell@uswatercraft.com

You might strip the plastic away and put also put a plastic crack monitor across the gap in the steel to monitor it.

Standard Concrete Crack Monitor
 
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#85 ·
Having looked at the video, I too think something more than crack filler, being old, just crumbled away. If that had been the case, it most likely would have fallen away in an irregular fashion in small amounts in a single place. With the size of the opening and the crack on both sides, I believe something has shifted. Possibilities include hard contact with some other object (likely from boat slamming down vertically onto the hard object such as bottom or rock), keel bolts failing, or possibly hull being overstressed from too much tension on rigging, probably over many years, and perhaps in combination with fatigue failure from years of hard use.
 
#86 · (Edited)
Chancemiller, Roatan could be limited for this type of repair. Considering everything needed for a good, low cost repair, Rio Deluce is the place to be.
You came this far, so I don't doubt your skill, and there is a chance the crack hasn't changed since you left Florida. Why? Because the CB hasn't been able to make it worse!
P.S. The C&C Corvette association has a forum. There, you definitely can find some info, from guys that have been there and done that. The hull structures are the same.
 
#87 ·
I think Rio Dulce is where I'm off to. The C&C folks were regrettably unable to offer any advice as the old boatworks burned decades ago and there's nobody there familiar with the Frigate. I'll wait for weather and make the transit. I think the CB is to blame for this, I don't think the damage has gotten worse in awhile based on marine growth alone, but man... what a thing to find after a trip across the gulf of mexico. It's like speeding on the freeway and getting out for fuel to realize you've got 2 lug nuts left.
Anyway. Not much I can do - she's happily anchored and she'll stay that way until it's time to move. I just wish I knew what to tell the boat yard in dulce as far as what needs to be done to fix the boat properly. I guess it'll be easier to look at once we get there and get her out of the water. I just don't want to be bent over a barrel not knowing what really needs to happen.
 
#88 ·
Chance,

The question is whether your separation crack is just the C&C version of the famous "Catalina smile" and you just need to fair the crack (or drop, fair, and reattach for extra points), or if this is evidence of some event that damaged the keelstub/ballast joint.

The Frigate's keel entry is very gentle, and the darn thing only draws 3.5'. I find it hard to believe even a hard grounding would have produced such damage. This is not a boat you can hurt by blocking the keel wrong when on the hard - keel load is spread over almost the entire waterline length.

If the board banging down could have done it, you should see deformation in the glass part of the slot...

I am leaning towards the happy end of the possibilities here. The cracks look very clean, like they're right along the ballast/glass joint.

Can you get some video or pics of your bilge along the keel, all along? Look for stress cracks in gelcoat or any evidence of glass flexing or moving.

Good luck!
 
#89 ·
I would say the cause is a 95% chance that the cast iron CB has fallen down a few times, to hit its stop or rest, causing the crack and leading to the filler to fall out.
The "stop" has its strength from the joining of the left side of the hull being laminated to the right half of the hull. Each is 5/8" thick.
There doesn't seem to be any other failure, than along the crack, which may follow the shelf that the CB rests on.
Is that shelf independent of the rest of the keel aft of there? Could be!
My C&C designed, cast iron CB ,was changed to fiberglass by a PO. They can be a loose cannon.
 
#91 ·
I am also going to second the opinion that there seems to have been a good amount of filler that got knocked out of a large gap that was probably there from the day the boat was built. The most likely cause for that would be some motion in the ballast. I don't think it moved by an inch so as to create all of that gap, but even a slight, say 1/16 inch, motion would cause the filler to come off. Are the keel bolts accessible? Are they tight? Is there any water or rust stains oozing around them? Any stress cracks in the fiberglass near the nuts? Maybe the glass got crushed a tiny bit, giving the bolts some wiggle room.
 
#93 ·
a vid or pic of the leading edge of the keel would tell us more if this was caused by a frontal impact of the keel

this can cause the aft end if the keel to detach if you will and sink in the aft stringers or bottom of hull...but I dont think this is your case as you would of shown us this first

good luck
 
#95 ·
I think this woul cause boat owner to crap there pants

Im a full keel lovaholic...but Its not that I dont understand or love fin keelers either

simply out unless buying a swan back in the day most production cruisers had these little issues

the point is most guys never know whats going on...its not like 90% percent of owners rebed their keels right?

so you never know
 
#96 ·
I feel a sigh of relief! The design of the CB keel should be able to take the forces of a CB hitting bottom, being kicked up, and dropping down with a bit of a bang.
Being an older boat, a lot of filler, let go.
If this theory proves correct, epoxy the CB, do the crack, and she would pass any survey of the keel.
 
#97 ·
That would be a very happy outcome.. hopefully that's the case.

But man, that's a lot of 'filler'.... just sayin'....
 
#98 ·
unfortunately for me I still have a leak somewhere...either through the keel bolts or the keel hull joint

bummer only so much you can do 6 hours at a time with tides...

oh well

Im not immune to leaky boats apparently as having owned a wooden classic has taught me before!
 
#99 ·
How fast? Are all your through-hulls good? Stuffing box stuffed? Is the leak salt or fresh? Could be a hidden water tank leak, as someone had a while back. Do you have a shore-side connection that could be leaking? It's not raining in through an open port is it? :)

Do you have powder you could put down around possible sources?
 
#100 ·
Last summer I sailed a Bristol 32 that had a centerboard that was not operative.

I found that close hauled the boat had very bad weather helm.
The explanation was that since the boat was slipping sideways as much as forward the barn door rudder was pushed to cause the weather helm.

So if you can get a chance you might want to fix the centerboard so your boat will sail better.

Unless of course your model behaves differently.
 
#102 · (Edited)
I hope RICH H doesnt mind me doing this but this is from the how much water in the bilge is normal thread

STANDARD 'leakage rate' for a 1 to 1-1/4" non-rotating shaft in a standard stuffing box with FLAX packing is 1 to 2 drops per minute.

1 to 2 drops per minute (gtt) X 24 hours X 60 minutes = 1440 to 2880 drops per day.
1 milliliter (ml) = ~18 drops
1440 to 2880 gtt per DAY / 18 = 80 to 160 ml / DAY

1 gallon = 3.78 liters = 3,780 milliliters
3 gallons = 11,340 milliliteters

11340 milliliters ÷ 80 to 160 ml/DAY = ~70 to 140 days = 2.3 to 4.6 MONTHS

Rx: - YOUR DRIP RATE IS PERFECTLY NORMAL


;-)

seems my loose suffing box pumps more water than I thought...

my calculations of 8 drips a minute or so comes around to 11,500 drips a day!

yikes

anywhoo

seems I need to stop this first then get a nice bilge pump and see if its JUST the stuffing box

heres hoping...I really did not want to careen the boat AGAIN!

sorry for the hijack op, hope the info is usefull for others too

christian
 
#104 ·
Dang! You found that before I could post mine. :) Well, it was fun figuring it, anyway.

This way gives gallons or liters per day, with a little less guesswork.

How many drips/tablespoon? (Dt)

1 tablespoon=15ml=0.5fl.oz.
1 gallon=128fl.oz.=3.785L

24 hours/day
X60 min/hr
-----------------
1440 min/day
X 8 drips/min
--------------------
11,520 drips/day (Dd)

Dd/Dt=tablespoons/day (Td)

Td*15=ml/day (Md)

Td*0.5=fl.oz./day (Fd)

128/Fd=gallons/day

3785/Md=liters/day
 
#103 ·
Hope that your problem is as simple as replacing filler.

As a former McGregor Venture Owner, a former no-name Kells owner, and now a "production" boat owner (Catalina of the Catalina, Beneteau, Hunter), I always have been made to feel that somehow my boats didn't/don't measure up and I should hang my head in shame when in the presence of true quality boats. You know, those older heavy built, blue water boats with certain names (and newer issues of those same quality names). C&C is one of those famous names so touted. If it's filler in large cracks/ areas where parts do not mate up properly, it sounds like really lousy quality build, even back then. None of my quality deficient boats ever had anything like that. Just saying.

But I do hope that the OP can solve his problem with new filler. It'll be easiest repair.
 
#108 · (Edited)
no...it came to about a liter or something

Ill do the math again but say 12k drops a day

12k/18 equals 666ml so lets call that half a liter a day(not that bad without a bilge pump)

.5l x 7 days I was away from the boat equals 3.5l or lets call that a galon

or
.7l x 7 days = 4.9liters, lets call that 5 or 1 galon one quart or so.

or
1 liter a day(more likely) x 7 = 1 galon 3 quarts which is probably my scenario

and this is for a sitting still shaft..BAD

so I had more than that(like 2.5 galons) so Im getting water from somewhere else obvioulsy OR my stuffing box leak is more than 6-8 drops a minute...

for a while there before tightening the shaft I had a steady stream coming in! jajajaja
 
#109 ·
You are assuming your drops are the same size as the ones in the example you quoted. That may not be the case. If you count how many drops it takes to fill a
[ tablespoon | 1-oz glass | 1/4-cup measure...] whatever known volume you have handy, you can easily calculate an accurate estimate for your leak rate.
 
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