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How do you feel about catamarans?

64K views 307 replies 58 participants last post by  TropicCat 
#1 ·
What does everyone think about catamaran sailboats? I have not seen any post about them. Are they harder to sail? Are they safer in off shores sailing?
 
#175 ·
When a cat driver says they don't like to heel, mono drivers say that's your choice.

When I mono driver says they prefer the stability of a deep weighted keel in a storm to a cat, it's like kicking a hornets nest. Somehow the mono drivers have to prove they've fully scientifically tested both to be credible. I don't have to drink and drive to know I would be impaired.

.......hornets incoming.......
 
#184 ·
Can't say I share the sentiment or accept the logical fallacy ("I don't have to drink"--actually, there is a lot of near-universally accepted scientific work behind that relationship, so it does not relate to to the point you are making or to the debate), but I like the post!
 
#177 ·
Think take homes are
Multi hulls
Like monos clear distinction between coastal and offshore boats
offshore boats should be compartmentized, have escape hatches, have raft mounted so assessable if inverted ( seen them installed under extreme aft of bridgedeck)
Faster in decent wind but if up wind vmg may be nearly equivalent.
More expensive to purchase and maintain
Unlike monos need to be >~45' to be reasonably safe offshore.
Have different motion then monos both underway and at anchor- tolerance and preference varies between people.
Less draft limitations but more slip limitations.
Tris generally faster up wind and point better than cats. Generally less usable room . Generally more feed back as to when to reef and balance than cats.
Multis in general require more active involvement in weather. Once of sufficient size in non purpose built racers reasonable safe if appropriate tactics employed.
All multis roughly twice the risk of lightening strike but lightening strike is rare.
Even more sensitive to weight and specifics of loading than monos as regards impact on performance.
Standard charter multis under canvassed.

Having said all that if money not an obstacle there is much to say in favor of a well designed multi. Advances in design make them increasingly attractive. we aren't talking about foiling racers but rather for a liveaboard in warm clines they make make great sense. At the other end of the spectrum the various folding tris offer phenomenal performance a mono could never hope to achieve and are within the reach of an average young couple who would be looking for a boat.
 
#178 ·
SMJ, did you post that folks here called your boat crap? Did I read that? I don't think I have and haven't heard that from anyone else.

All boats are compromises and as individuals we choose the compromises we are most happy with. We can discuss those features that make up the compromise without being offensive. If I've offended please accept my apology.
 
#180 ·
Here is the definitive difference between a monohul and a catamaran that everyone has been waiting for.

Monhulls give you the joy of sailing. If you are in love with that joy, a catamaran just won't do it for you.

Catamarans are voyagers. The "joy" and the "feel" of sailing is gone, but so is the hassle of living on an angle for days on end. Check out that St Francis 50 video in the Southern Ocean going 20 knots while the wife is just kicked back reading a novel. Stuff is laying about as if they were in harbor. Catamarans tend to be less drafty, so a wider variety of anchorages are available.

As far as safety goes, it is true that once you flip a catamaran it is pretty much game over. But, many of them don't sink. And, they are the ideal vessel in which to ride out the worst storm ever via a jordan series drogue. They offer stability that a monohul doesn't have. The monohull might still take some knockdowns and get dismasted where the catamaran will just ride smoothly waiting out the storm.
 
#187 · (Edited)
As far as safety goes, it is true that once you flip a catamaran it is pretty much game over. But, many of them don't sink. And, they are the ideal vessel in which to ride out the worst storm ever via a jordan series drogue.
Hmmm, not so sure about that one... Such a sweeping generalization hardly applies in the real world, I've seen plenty of cruising cats out there that the LAST tactic I'd want to employ in in storm or survival conditions would be to present some of those open back porches to large breaking seas from astern...

Large sliding glass doors do not an effective or seaworthy offshore 'companionway' make... :)



This sort of liability is not confined to catamarans, I believe one of the worst trends in design today is the vulnerability to downflooding inherent in many boats that might conceivably be taken offshore, and experience extreme conditions...



A Jordan Series Drogue is one of the best tools a bluewater sailor can have at his disposal, I'd never want to sail a boat offshore where the option to use one would be taken off the table due to such an undesirable characteristic of the design for heavy weather...

The problem is that in severe conditions the series drogue may work too well, holding the stern down to an advancing sea, so that the rear end of the boat and local structure, such as the cockpit and companionway, are at risk. In spite of Don Jordan's comments, this remains an area of concern for us when considering boats with vulnerable structure at the stern...

Steve Dashew, SURVIVING THE STORM, page 435
 
#191 ·
smj- looked at your public profile and it doesn't say what's your beauty. Fully agree both recent mono hulls and multi hulls are not designed to make one feel secure they would survive in stormy conditions. The increasing use of hull windows (old school "lights") absence of effective drop boards, opportunities for down flooding with companion ways level to cockpits, poor anti siphoning and such are increasingly incorporated in both types of boats. Some say with proper materials and design ( multi layer tempered glass for hull lights etc.) a strong boat can be made with allowing for these recent trends. I wonder what features you would look at in multi hulls contemplating voyaging?
 
#193 ·
We are boat less at the moment but have a contract on a Crowther Spindrift 37. Hopefully we will be boat owners again soon.
I would like to see daggerboards, really good bridge deck clearance, strong smaller companionway, low profile, smallish windows, slim hulls for performance and a reliable steering system that has an easy backup, tillers. I personally like to have as few thru hulls as possible. One of the reasons I like composting heads and outboards. And something simple. The problem with low profile and high bridgedeck clearance is it limits headroom in the smaller boats.
What I don't care for is the fly bridge steering station. Plenty have crossed oceans but it really raises you center of gravity. Also puts the sail area up high which to me isn't a good idea.
 
#192 ·
One thing I like about some current designs are the swinging comoanionway doors vs. Hatch boards. Being able to seal off the comoanionway in a pinch is a great feature. I wonder about all of the Windows also, but I think they are significantly stronger than they seem. I also wonder about having to rebed them.

outbound:1633865 said:
smj- looked at your public profile and it doesn't say what's your beauty. Fully agree both recent mono hulls and multi hulls are not designed to make one feel secure they would survive in stormy conditions. The increasing use of hull windows (old school "lights") absence of effective drop boards, opportunities for down flooding with companion ways level to cockpits, poor anti siphoning and such are increasingly incorporated in both types of boats. Some say with proper materials and design ( multi layer tempered glass for hull lights etc.) a strong boat can be made with allowing for these recent trends. I wonder what features you would look at in multi hulls contemplating voyaging?
 
#197 ·
Are you suggesting that monohulls flying bare poles dont get knocked down? The big worry in these storms are large breaking waves, not so much the wind.

MikeJohns:1635601 said:
What sort of boats were knocked down? If you do a beam wind heeling study for bare poles in those sorts of conditions you'll get around 45 degrees for worst of the small light boats to around 15 degrees or better for the boats over 50 feet. At least for any sensible crusing design.
It's not even sensible to suggest 90 degrees since the wind heeling moment is close to zero at that and the RM is maximum.
 
#201 ·
How do I feel about catamarans? Well, I feel they are for people who want to float their luxury condo and MAYBE go out and hoist a roller-furled main and self-tacking jib at the push of a button from the salon in ideal conditions. They are for taking up a massive footprint at anchor (or better yet at the dock) for people who need a lot of space to wander around on and who simply can't seem to leave the plush living room sofa, laz-z-boy, and big screen tv at home. Granite countertops and Viking range in the galley? Of course! Huge picture windows? Yessiree! Look mom, there's ocean on the nature channel!

In short, I don't particularly care for them. Not if you're a sailor anyway. ;)

(Oooo... I bet this one's not gonna get a lot of 'likes.') :D
 
#203 · (Edited)
Except for the fact that one almost never finds a roller furling main on a catamaran while they are quite common on monohulls.

mrhoneydew:1636362 said:
How do I feel about catamarans? Well, I feel they are for people who want to float their luxury condo and MAYBE go out and hoist a roller-furled main and self-tacking jib at the push of a button from the salon in ideal conditions. They are for taking up a massive footprint at anchor (or better yet at the dock) for people who need a lot of space to wander around on and who simply can't seem to leave the plush living room sofa, laz-z-boy, and big screen tv at home. Granite countertops and Viking range in the galley? Of course! Huge picture windows? Yessiree! Look mom, there's ocean on the nature channel!

In short, I don't particularly care for them. Not if you're a sailor anyway. ;)

(Oooo... I bet this one's not gonna get a lot of 'likes.') :D
 
#227 ·
That's precisely the type of observation I'm referring to.

Half way down that web page there is a graph that you are presumably based your statement on.

It compares a 35 foot multihull with a 35 foot monohull. Why is length on deck used for an equivalent craft comparison? A 35 foot mono is clearly a much smaller cheaper craft not at all comparable with a 35 foot cat.

I suggested before comparing a cat with a mono that is 10 feet longer on the waterline as being more sensible.

It would be no more sensible to compare the craft on beam alone than to compare them on length.

Multiplying waterline beam by waterline length for both craft would produce a more sensible figure for comparison.

Then we get significantly different results. Most importantly the monohull will be longer, safer, and be a better performing (over all conditions & headings) passage maker.
 
#209 ·
Jon- agree with your critique of many recent monos and the French multis I see in the Bahamas/Caribbean/ eastern US. Still I believe a multi can be executed in a safe fashion. Personally I am use to the idea my hard Bimini and possibly the lights of my hard dodger may blow out in an extreme pooping but know the basic structure of the boat is sound and will survive a blow with a JSD.
A prior thread discussed the loss of steerage in a new multi taken aback by a boarding head sea resulting in abandonment.
I'm curious to know from you and others what specific models of multis are considered safe offshore boats? The features referred to previously do seem to do incorporated in early designs such as the Prout ( pre date Broadblue) 39s. Are there current designs that also meet the test? I had opportunity to crawl around the recent Chris White boat. It seems a fine craft and also a safe vessel.
 
#210 ·
Cats are ugly? That depends on who is looking. I really wish I could afford one. I will live with our S-2, and we really like it, but we WILL own a cat our next, and I think, final boat. That ugly statement is just a sailing snob spouting off and showing his limited amount of ability for flexibility for other views. My cents worth
 
#212 ·
I find this discussion very interesting and would like to point out the following.
In monohulls typically with a knock down the port lights on the up wind side (not the one immersed) blow out. It's the deformation of the house and internal forces that cause this. One would expect the large open houses would be exposed to similar forces by large boarding seas.
The forces generated by boarding seas can be extreme. I know of empty davits being severely bent by pooping and have had moderate boarding seas destroy well constructed dodgers. I have a JSD and hope to never use it in anger. I do not expect it to prevent damage to the aft sections of my and any other boat mono or multi if those regions are not constructed to allow for such a occurrence. I think with all due respect jzk is being over optimistic. Yes current port light glass is much stronger then in the past. Yes cored houses are much stiffer. Still, such large houses as seen on multi's will have much greater forces applied. They do not have extensive internal bulk heads spanning the large interior open spaces. Without thoughtful design I believe they are potentially subject to sufficient damage as to compromise watertight integrity allowing risk of down flooding. Returning to original question "What current multi's are safe offshore boats?"
 
#213 ·
It is not impossible that you could be correct and the aft exposure could be an issue.

However, again, the amazing thing about the JSD is the way that it minimizes such impact by keeping the boat going forward and allowing the wave to lift up the boat.

In other words, if you are going to be hit by a 100 mph baseball, would you rather be traveling 30mph away from it, or 30 mph towards it?

I remember seeing some great test video in a tank or something, or maybe it was just a graphical representation that demonstrated this concept.

Do you remember that catamaran that was abandoned on its maiden voyage? They took a wave from the front that stopped it in its tracks and even pushed it backwards. If I am recalling correctly, this bent the rudders and loosened the front window.

I would much rather take the punch from behind while I am moving forward away from it than be travelling into the punch or not travelling at all.

Also, keep in mind that the bigger the wave, the faster I am going to be going away from it. And, the faster I go, the more force the JSD will be applying to slow me. Seems like the optimum balance.

I also remember reading that if one is going to have a problem with a JSD, it will be from it being too strong and not letting the boat have suitable forward speed.

Anyway, does anyone know of stern issues actually caused by breaking waves with a JSD deployed?
 
#214 ·
Had a fair amount of back and forth with the gentleman from England who builds the JSDs calculating exactly how many cones my vessel would require. He constructed a second series to attach to the first also calculated minimum weight to stick on the end. That said the device does greatly increase chance for survival and does allow you to lash the helm amidships and go below with the boat passively enduring the storm. This also increases odds you and your crew will survive. However, there are potential boarding seas and then there are breaking seas. The breaking seas I've encountered are not always predictable. Nor are they always coming the same as the rest of the wave train. Nor have they come up to the boat at the same speed as they prevailing waves -in fact usually they are travelling faster as they break. Even when surfing have been pooped. Admittedly mildly so as this occurred in a gale not a storm. Have had a prior boat completely submersed from seas boarding while hove to in a storm but nothing blew out ( other than the Sargent strips on my and my co owners pants until it was over(grin))However, although I agree with everything you've said I think the JSD does not prevent pooping by breaking seas and boats should be designed to survive such occurrences. As Jon said this is equally true for one hull or more. I just wanted to point out due to nature of design with much wider houses this is potentially more of an issue with multihull vessels.
 
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