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Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest > General Discussion (sailing related) > Alternative to Solar
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Topic Review (Newest First)
03-25-2014 04:25 PM
hellosailor
Re: Alternative to Solar

In order to understand the market needs one would need to first define the market. If that is recreational sail (not power) boaters, have your friends yet found out how many boats in each size range there are? How many existing, how many added each year?

Then since the "box" can't be a miracle, one would need to define the size, weight, and output of "the box" or a range of boxes, to ask the boaters if that device would be of any interest to them.

Tell me a shoebox that weighs 20 kilos will reliably give me 50AH at 14 volts over the course of 24 hours at anchor in a calm anchorage and I will be interested. Tell me it will be four times the size, twice the weight, and product only 10AH at 14V over the course of 24 hours in rough water, and I won't be interested.

But unless I missed something so far you are only asking "Would you like a box that makes electricity?" and I was promised that around 1960. They promised us home nuclear generators, each the size of a home hot water heater (about 2' in diameter and 5' tall) that would provide all the power a hungry American single-family home would need.

I'm still waiting.
03-21-2014 10:22 AM
guitarguy56
Re: Alternative to Solar

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allmayer-Beck View Post
Thanks a lot for the different Ideas! I am actually consulting two inventors from the technical university of catalunia (UPC - Universitat Politècnica de Catalunya), who are also part of the company SMALLE. They are very tech savvy and passionated about their product but don't really know if their product could be useful for sailors, so I am trying to find out how the product . The company itself is researching a lot in the field of renewable energy.
It would be very interesting to design a boat from scratch with the intend of being as green as possible. There is a German company, which is focusing on electric motors and they are working on a project which is called Deep Blue Hybrid. Check out the video, I really like the idea!

I am not able to post the link here but the company is called Torqeedo and under products you will find the deep blue hybrid!
Maximillian... took some time on reading some of your proposal and that of the SMALLE technical ideas from the inventors/researchers... what it looks like is the classic magnetic ball oscillating inside a tube surrounded by electrical coils picking up the EMF of the magnetized ball... this has been tried and the voltages are quite small (0.5v @ very low currents)... in fact one American inventor has patented such an invention using a toroid with the magnetic ball inside/coils outside which uses kinetic energy to produce an electric current... it works no different than the kinetic action of my mechanical watch.

See invention here:

HOLLOW RING TORUS MAGNET GENERATOR - Patent application

Basically your inventors are trying to do the same thing (based on the pictures I saw) but in a linear motion which would work if you have about 24 of these devices to produce 12v total @ whatever current (efficiencies). The device would work by using the forward/stern and port/starboard motion of the boat... but this would produce far less electricity than a 12v 200 watt solar panel... many of these devices pop up with energy claims where the gas motor is to be shelved but in reality it produces far less efficiency and or claims are not what they really are.

Most of these use setups no different than this (there is no spring as shown... it is just showing the movement of the magnet oscillations graphically):



or more elaborate such as this:



Frankly I prefer the toroid coil generator as it makes energy is all axises.
03-21-2014 07:11 AM
Allmayer-Beck
Re: Alternative to Solar

Thanks a lot for the different Ideas! I am actually consulting two inventors from the technical university of catalunia (UPC - Universitat Politècnica de Catalunya), who are also part of the company SMALLE. They are very tech savvy and passionated about their product but don't really know if their product could be useful for sailors, so I am trying to find out how the product . The company itself is researching a lot in the field of renewable energy.
It would be very interesting to design a boat from scratch with the intend of being as green as possible. There is a German company, which is focusing on electric motors and they are working on a project which is called Deep Blue Hybrid. Check out the video, I really like the idea!

I am not able to post the link here but the company is called Torqeedo and under products you will find the deep blue hybrid!
03-20-2014 10:56 PM
guitarguy56
Re: Alternative to Solar

Just curious Allmeyer-Beck are you an engineer/inventor or data mining ideas here?
03-20-2014 09:15 PM
Brent Swain
Re: Alternative to Solar

I once read about an engineer crossing the Atlantic who used a larger copy of the mechanism in a self winding watch to charge his batteries. It was so powerful that he had to disconnect it most of the time, to prevent over charging. I was thinking of a pendulum device to generate such power ,but along came LED's reducing my power needs to microscopic . Then my neighbour gave me his old solar panels ,capable of generating far more than I will ever use.
As no two boats will use the same amount of power, some will use only lights, others will have every kind of electric gadget they can buy, I suggest you offer your product in a series of different sizes , starting small. As there is no shortage of wave energy at sea, and in some anchorages ,I think you are onto a great idea.
Good luck!
03-20-2014 04:16 PM
krisscross
Re: Alternative to Solar

I think it would be an awesome device to incorporate into a sailboat design intended to have an electric motor. Going green all the way. Then you could make it really heavy and place it close to the keel where it would do most good. Have you tried talking about it to any active sailboat designers? There has to be a market for it. If I was wealthy I would love to have a boat like that.
03-20-2014 04:00 PM
Allmayer-Beck
Re: Alternative to Solar

That is completely right! I am sorry. We are working with 12V batteries, since they are commonly used in most of the sailboats in Spain.
03-19-2014 03:23 PM
hellosailor
Re: Alternative to Solar

" of course the average output of 36Ah "
But 36 Ah is not an output or output rate. It is just gibberish unless you say "36Ah at 14 volts over a 24 hour period" or something similar.

Output power needs to be expressed in watts, as a constant or average. It would be interesting to know how big and heavy the device has to be, to have what output power over what time period.

Absent that? Meaningless gibberish.
03-19-2014 11:23 AM
Allmayer-Beck
Re: Alternative to Solar

Dear community,
thanks a lot for your very detailed and technical answers.
There was a long discussion wether to put the device on the top of the mast or outside the boat. We tried these two approaches already and learned that the mast option is not commercially feasible. Furthermore the out-side approach could cause damage to the boat so we rejected both of these ideas. (The device is actually designed to produce more energy when sailing!)

Moreover, it is quite obvious that the power output goes down when the boat is moored, but still the device is also capable of producing energy although there is only a small movement.
In general I have to say that of course the average output of 36Ah does not fully meets all the needs of a sailor but it helps. So for me it would be interesting to know if people would actually value the additional amount of energy they can consume with this sort of device.

Finally, a few people posted that the size/weight would really matter, so could a possible option be to install a device that generates 120-200 Amp. (for instance) which ways between 100 and 200 Kilo? (the price for such a device would be around 1500-2500 Euro)

Thanks a lot again for all the constructive feedback. It is really helpful to talk to this community and I am continuously trying to improve the technology.

kind regards,

Maximilian Allmayer-Beck
03-04-2014 11:49 AM
bobmcgov
Re: Alternative to Solar

Here's an inherent difficulty of tidal generators: you know how a tide chart is basically a sine wave, showing min/max peaks every six hours? There's another sinusoidal graph about 90 degrees out of phase with that chart representing speed of the water. Its peaks coincide roughly with the midpoints between high and low water. Like tossing a ball into the air: it's moving max speed when it leaves your hand, then it slows and slows until it nears its peak, then it stops and seems to hang there for a bit, then it begins accelerating until it reaches its initial speed as it passes your hand. If you were standing on a cliff edge and the ball were on a bungee cord, it would perform the same trick downward: max, fast, slower, slow, stop, slow, faster, fast, max....

Why does that matter? It means in a location prone to 5kt tidal rips, the water will spend almost all its time moving slower than 5kts. Most of its time moving much slower than 5kts. Power available in a moving fluid is the cube of the fluid's velocity -- air moving half as fast has one quarter the kinetic energy and one eighth the power. So when that tidal rip is below its peak (moving 2.5 kts, say), it just doesn't have very much power in it for you to gather, by any means you can think of. Output falls off very steeply as fluid speed diminish; and as mentioned above, tides spend most of their time moving slower than peak speed. A tidal generator will spend 1/3 of its life doing nothing at all, 1/3 doing a little bit, and 1/3 cranking like a sumbitch. Will that last third make up for the other 2/3rds?

That's why you need to ignore peak output on wind turbines (or the OP's device). Don't be too impressed by that instantaneous amp meter reading as the turbine maxes out in 25kt winds or the Magic Box pendulum achieves peak acceleration. What really matters is output over time in a given regime. How much power will the Magic Box generate in a moderately sheltered anchorage in 24 hours of normal swell? How much juice will the wind turbine generate over one month in a location with mean wind speeds of 10kts?
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