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Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Boat Review and Purchase Forum > Price fixing on new boats
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Topic Review (Newest First)
08-15-2002 01:50 AM
halyardz
Price fixing on new boats

Guys, I appreciate the dialog butif you really want a Catalina 36 fine. IMHO the used boat market holds better treasures for a similar dollar figure. Older Tartans, Pearsons, and the like. From what I recall from conversations with people that know Frank, his boats are designed with female appeal in mind (a strong force in the purchase equation) as well as price/value.

Overall, I''m not happy with what I see/hear about the new boat market and "marketing." It''s not the "gentlemanly" business it once was.
07-31-2002 11:07 AM
tsenator
Price fixing on new boats

Mogul,

I would think that calling and leaving a message would be more constructive and especially with email these days, sometimes people get way too many and it takes forever for them to get around to it, plus they can hear the tone of your voice. I don''t have their email with me, but I''ll look and reply to you directly when/if I find it. I know the phone number for Catalina is (818)884-7700 ē FAX (818)884-3810 . Maybe you call leave a message and then reference the email for detail.

You never know, Catalina factory can sweeten the pot by supplying some extra''s to the dealer gratis. Things like a full Canvas package is worth several thousand dollars (and Catalina''s canvas workmanship is excellent, far above some other things). etc. etc.

As far as the year old boat on a dealers lot. I am not sure , but I think its the dealers at that point and its up to their desire to move it, not Catalina. The problem is that very little has changed between the 2 boats over a year model.

If you are REALLY interested in this (or any other boat). I would strongly suggest going to your closest boat show and working the deal there, I have heard of decent deals then (and possibly you will get a different dealer). Newport Boat show is Sept and Annapolis is October. I would also talk directly to Gerry, Frank or Sharon and express your displeasure in person and make sure they watch you walk over to competing boat manufacturer with your checkbook in hand.
07-31-2002 08:42 AM
mogul11
Price fixing on new boats

Tsenator

Is there an email address I can send them my copy. I would be amazed if they (Catalina) would circumvent their dealers. IN addition it would surprise me if catalina would sweeten the pot as they say.

As a point of reference their is a new 2001 still on the market on the east that the dealer is having a hard time selling becasue it is only a $1000 less than an ordered 2003. You would think Catalina would recongnize this and discount it to the dealer to move it, vs letting it get older and older. I am told they won''t do this.
07-31-2002 08:21 AM
tsenator
Price fixing on new boats

Mogul,

I agree, their loss. And I would do as I said before, make a statement with your checkbook, but before you do I would let Sharon Day, Frank Butler and Gerry Douglas (Just call the Catalina factory number and leave a message for them) know exactly what happened to you and why they are losing your business. Who knows....at least you will be heard.

Thats too bad that is happening to you, some dealers are so much better than others and I suspect it has a lot to do with where you are located. I know some people that got (relatively) great deals , but I suspect most were at boat shows where they know the other manufacturers are working just as hard to get your business........Its too bad also, because just as you said ...

"With all this said, I would still like to buy one"

07-31-2002 07:24 AM
mogul11
Price fixing on new boats

Let me chime in a again about the price fixing statements I made earlier. A. it is price fixing when Catalina encourages dealers NOT TO SELL INTO OTHER AREAS. This was a common theme when I talked to dealers out of my area. B. Unlike car dealers that are obligated to service a brand no matter where or when it was purchased, I find boat dealers are not as eager to do the same. True I have a warrantee but getting satisfaction may be difficult.

I have no problem with a dealer making a business decision as to how to operate his business. As someone said that is his right, just don''t force me or as a manufacturer discourage free commerce by telling your dealers not to sell into an area.

After extensive reaserch I believe I have a fair idea as to the discount structure from Catalina and I am dissappointed my dealer will not work on what I call a fair margin (subjective as it is). Keep in mind this was a clean deal not floor plan, paod for within 48 hours of off load from truck. But with this said his loss.

As for the Catalina banter above, my feeling is that you get what you pay for. I have no plans on going offshore and for my wife and I it is basically a floating cottage. With this said any of the big three work, you pick Hunter or Beneteau.

As for the resale banter I take exception to all this you get more money back on a catalina. BS!!!! hell you paid more for it!! Of the big three Catalina is by far the most expensive!! I would hope you get more. Get on buc professional and do the research the sell price is more but so was the cost. A hunter for instance got less for a comparable size but the percentage against new was almost the same + or -. I found that this was the story my dealer used to justify 15K more for a Catalina. Look at the advertising campaign Catalina is using and you see where this comes from. I just priced a comparable boat with the exact same options, Windlass, Oven, Shades, Refig etc. and all the other goodies Catalina offers as standard. Surprise surprise it was still a lot of money less. These are all mass produced boats and are flying off the line, Don''t tell me one is made that much better than the others.

With all this said, I would still like to buy one, but that won''t happen as I see it. I''ll buy something else. THERE LOSS!
07-31-2002 03:04 AM
RyanMI25
Price fixing on new boats

I guess I''ll chime back in now that Denr has managed to ruin this discussion beyond hope. I didn''t mention any brand in the beginning because I wanted to know more about dealer practice then any boat brand. Maybe someday we''ll see Denr post something useful that isn''t just a slew of insults.

That being said Denr should pull his head out of his behind. For someone like my dad who is old, likes to sail but isn''t real gung ho about it Catalina can be the perfect boat. For someone who is basically a nice weather sailer and doesn''t need any offshore ability at all they are a very good boat.

He can not get a better boat used for the same money. The roller furling main is the perfect option for someone who is never going to race and will not sail in winds approaching where someone would normally reef. There are very few used boats available with that option and it is very expensive to retrofit.

I personally am on my second Catalina and planning on purchasing a third one (older Catalina 36) when the financials allow it. My brain must just be brimming to the top with tumors and I''m probably going to fall over dead before I get the chance to by my third. Catalina is definetely the most popular boat in the area I am (Lake St Clair) and for some reason although they may only represent 30% or so of the boats you see at the dock they seem to be 95% of the boats you see actually getting used on a regular basis. There are enough older boats around that they clearly aren''t sinking at 5 years when the warranty expires as you would have as believe. In this area there are several very active owners groups that offer much help and knowledge. I don''t see that kind of owner support available for any other brand of boat.

07-30-2002 01:27 PM
tsenator
Price fixing on new boats

ok duh-denr

Once again you ramble on with nothing but your own delusional hysteria. I''m sorry you only can write "trash" and you have no FACTS whatsoever. That''s nothing new. And I really don''t care if the original poster or anyone else buys a Catalina, I''m just stating some anecdotal evidence as to why buying a Catalina is not (as you stupidly say) like buying a lottery ticket. I am not "rushing to their defense" but setting people straight on your totally false misleading statements. If someone ever said that a Catalina was the ultimate blue-water boat , I''d be the first to say they are nuts, but I do believe that Catalina makes some excellent boats for a purpose and at a relatively good price. And I couldn''t be happier with the purchase of my C36, it is everything I expected and more. There is NO WAY I need to justify my great purchase . As far are making statements or discussions on this list, at least I am consistent and I only make comments about boats when I have the facts. What is it about you and the 3 big sailboat manufacturers? Did someone that owned these boats take your first born? Are you still angry about being laid off in the 70''s as a factory worker? Is it that other people actually live in houses, but it drives you crazy that you live in a trailer park and you think you deserve better in life? You love to contradict yourself a lot also (its understandable your arguments have no merit) one minute you tell a story about twelve sailors...and a Catalina (blah, blah blah) .... and then later say " you are not trashing the boat you are trashing me" Have you ever noticed other people think your comments are ridiculous and immature. (please get over the Sailkote you sounds like a kid in junior high school that just discovered girls). And please remember my first post was discussing prices of boats and price-fixing, not once did I say anything about you.

Forgetting what you want to believe about Dealers and pricing (and I have no real argument there,) the used boat market for Catalina (without a dealer involved) can be actually very good and those stories are true, not some made up BS like you like to spew. And these were not ''asking prices'' but sale prices. If anyone wants some individual email contacts of these people you can go to the archives and get them or I can get some for you. Not alot of hot air, just the truth.


So going back to the original posters question. Yes, that really is crappy what the dealers are doing, but its their prerogative and if you don''t like it, I think the best thing to do is make a statement with your checkbook AND let the dealers know.


oh....and one more thing duh-enr....its "Hear" not "here" and its "Anecdotal" not "antidotal"...(lol)
07-30-2002 12:45 PM
Sailmc
Price fixing on new boats

Denr you are just plain wrong on the resale value of the Catalina 36. My father bought a 1983 and sold it 6 years later for what he paid for it. I bought a 1994 36MKII, added a new jib and air conditioning and sold it 7 years later for $2K more than my original purchase price. Say what you want about the boat but they represent an excellent value when it comes time to sell. This is still the most popular 36'' boat ever built and that spells RESALE!
07-30-2002 12:27 PM
Denr
Price fixing on new boats

Tsenator, Csimms, Santa Claus

What fascinating antidotal minutia! Here me know believe me later, most of these tales you repeat are promotional propaganda originating in the sales and marketing departments of Catalina. This is a classic tale that many builders of mediocre boats make, using overly inflated ďasking pricesĒ and comparing them to the price of new boats. The Catalina salesman tries to convince his or her unsuspecting (and uninformed in your case) buyers by demonstrating the percentage of return and the great resale of their boats. What a bunch of Enron!

Hereís more antidotal information for you, of the twelve sailors that I knew at one time owned a Catalina only one purchase another one. He was later diagnosed as having a brain tumor which would explain his decision. The others knew what they bought, they wanted better the next time around!

Every time someone reports a situation with a Fatalina, you rush to their defense. You must be very insecure as you constantly try to validate your decision. So is it always someone elseís fault where a Catalina is concerned? Iím not trashing the boat Iím trashing you! You must have sour grape juice running in your veins. May you have no wind and be aground most of the time!
07-30-2002 10:13 AM
tsenator
Price fixing on new boats

RyanMI25,

You didn''t say what dealer/manufacturer it was. (inferring catalina ??, but who knows, it could have been anyone of the 3-4 big boat manufacturers) But it would have pissed me off too. I possibly would have tried to not let each dealer know, maybe you could go into one of the dealers on your fathers behalf and try and strike a better deal from one of the dealers without letting them know who you are. Its supply and demand and I don''t think the government thinks its price fixing if its for the same product from the same manufacturer. (Its like trying to by a Saturn, the price is pretty much fixed, but that eliminates the hassle of haggling) Its price fixing when separate manufacturers are in collusion.

Its what the market demands and can bear, and if they feel they can get a certain price and are not financially forced (e.g. dealer holding onto a boat over the winter and paying interest on it while its in stock), then they can ask what they think they can get. And with no due respect to a denr , he is naively wrong. That is *exactly* why owning a Catalina IS a winner, because of the demand for these boats and the value they will bring years down the road when/if you''d like to sell one.

Just as a ''for instance'' there has been some discussions recently on the Sailnet C36-List (right here) on Catalina Boat prices and how they have held up well over the years, with many selling for as much as when new . This is not only newer boats but C36''s from the 1980''s.

Here are some excerpts
"Gerry,
We went shopping for a late model C36 in 2000. The price difference between a 2 to 3 year old boat and a brand new one was less than 10K at the time. We ended up buying new.

The C36 holds it''s value very well. At Sail Expo my dealer told me he''d give me what I had into our C36 to move up to a C42. Zero dollars lost! That''s a hell of a deal. He also said he''d have the boat sold before the end of the show! He figured he could flip the boat the same day at the show!

Regards,
Chris"

"Chris,

I had a similar situation... I was at boat show in MI finalizing arraignments for my dock for the summer when a broker in a booth next to the marina''s booth overheard me talking about a C36 (mine is an ''86). He asked me several questions (including the fact that I just had had it surveyed the year before with no problems) and offered me 10K more than I paid for it on the spot. I didn''t sell but it was nice to see that it is in demand!

Steve"

"Gerry,

If you have a hull number you can call Catalina and get a copy of the invoice. I have #592 and in 1986 it was ~56K. About what an ''86 sells for today give or take a little... part of the reason I bought a catalina!!

Steve"


"I don''t know what they sold for new but I purchased a 1985 in great shape last year for $53K. The previous owner had it for 10 years and paid $55K for it. I placed a wanted ad on the C36 Association web site and the seller contacted me before he listed it with a broker, so there were no commissions involved. There are very few for sale in this area right now so I think the price would be considerably higher this year.


Bob Uehlein
Island Time C36TR #424
Charlevoix, MI"


(do a search in the C36 archives and they headings of the email strings are "Personal Property Tax")

And there are many more such stories, I know I can easily sell my C36 for what I bought it for 2 years ago (purchased without brokerage fees). That 10% buying and selling really takes a chuck out of the buyers/sellers pockets.


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