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Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest > General Discussion (sailing related) > Pissed off crew
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Topic Review (Newest First)
08-05-2014 11:42 PM
The Smokester
Re: Pissed off crew

This is simple:

The Owner requested, and the Crew agreed, to crew. The Crew was known to the Owner and so now they both knowledgably agreed. The Owner was aware of the costs. There was a meeting of the minds as well as an email trail.

The crew upheld his end of the agreement. The owner, who was implicitly providing a service, did not.

Conclusion: The Owner is A$$$$ho.
08-05-2014 10:46 PM
Slayer
Re: Pissed off crew

Capta, I never got a response from him explaining why the early departure or if he would be sailing short handed. So if something doesn't ring true it could be the missing details that I can't provide. I do know this: this is an annual trip for the owner. He and crew sail down and his wife meets him there and they spend a week. The day after she leaves, by plane, he departs so long as the weather allows. The last time I crewed for him we were delayed three days by tropical storm Curtis (I think that was the name) and i was fine with that. I knew to allow for a delayed departure and planned accordingly. So it was this habit of departing after his vacation with his wife was over that lead me to believe that an early departure was unlikely. Along with the fact that I informed him of my arrival date and he made no mention of a possible early departure. I actually think he forgot about me and wasn't even going to let me know of the change. I can only measure people by how I would respond to something. I know I likely would have contributed to the ticket cost and definitely would have given an explanation and apology.

In any event, if I volunteer again I will ask up front about the possibility of an early departure. Lesson learned.
08-05-2014 07:46 PM
capta
Re: Pissed off crew

It is always foolish for a delivery skipper to pay transportation to and from the boat for an unknown crew member. After the fact, it is possible you have found a gem, who you would like to have sail with you again, so you can reimburse that crew member.
But most non-professional delivery crew are sailing to get experience or get somewhere and are quite happy to pay transportation to and from the boat, if they get what they need from the trip.
At the height of the delivery season from the VI to the states, we would stack up 10 or more deliveries back to back and if you could keep the same crew for all the deliveries, you were happy to pay transportation and a pretty good wage. But beyond our nucleus of 3 professionals, any others paid their own transportation.
In the OP's case, something just does not ring true about the skipper's actions. Would he have left short handed just because of a weather window? I wouldn't have, not on THAT trip. Perhaps he found himself a honey and didn't have room for the OP?
As to sailing with the owner aboard, I have always made it a policy to charge considerably extra if the owner wants to go on a delivery. A delivery is not a pleasure cruise for the owner; it is to convey the vessel from point A to point B, as quickly and efficiently as practical, with as little damage as possible. No matter what the owner asks, demands or suggests, it is still the skipper who is ultimately responsible for what happens; nothing the owner says or does can absolve the skipper of that responsibility, in an official inquiry.
I have never sustained more damage to a vessel on a delivery, than when I allowed an owner's wishes to affect my decisions as captain.
08-05-2014 10:10 AM
seabemol
Re: Pissed off crew

Quote:
Originally Posted by zz4gta View Post
I've done one delivery for free. And that's enough. I'll distance race b/c I like it, and try to find owners that pay expenses. Deliveries is mandatory paid travel and a daily rate. No way I'm doing it for free or paying out of pocket to deliver another boat.
You are definitely right. But this applies only to professional delivery skippers. We do pay all expenses for the "volunteer" who comes along during a delivery, because 1/ two crew are mandatory passed a certain time at seas 2/ crew transportation is invoiced to the boat owner.
In this case, if I understood well, Slayer was sailing with an owner (of a special kind, it seems...) who does not have the same obligations. No obligations, no reputation to worry about, just didn't care.
Good thing, not all owners are like him :-)
06-02-2014 02:51 PM
zz4gta
Re: Pissed off crew

I've done one delivery for free. And that's enough. I'll distance race b/c I like it, and try to find owners that pay expenses. Deliveries is mandatory paid travel and a daily rate. No way I'm doing it for free or paying out of pocket to deliver another boat.
06-02-2014 11:27 AM
eherlihy
Re: Pissed off crew

I find that it always helps to distill the story down to the pertinent points;

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slayer View Post
Here was the post I responded to:

“I had a crew member that hard to cancel today (4-30-14) because of illness in the family. [...] Departing (weather permitting) Baltimore Maryland on Monday May 12th and arriving in Hamilton Bermuda on Friday May 17th and setting off from Bermuda on May 27th (after a nine 9 day layover) and arriving back in Baltimore, Maryland on Sunday July 1st. [...] I will need one (1) crew with offshore experienced. Crew must have all personal & safety gear. The trip is free with all reason able on board expenses included (food), but more exotic provisioning and social drinks paid individually. The crew must cover transportation expenses to and from the boat. I would like the crew to e-mail me, their sailing resume.”

I have sailed with this guy before and saw that I might be able to make part of the trip, so emailed him and told him I could make the sail back from Bermuda if he needed me. He said he would be happy to have me sail with him again. I emailed him on May 2 saying I would fly into Bermuda on either May 25th or the 26th and asked if I could stay on the boat so I didn’t need to rent a room. He said I could stay on the boat. He never mentioned that he might depart early.

[...]

So the Friday before I left [May 23] I emailed him and confirmed that I would be flying in on the 26th for departure on the 27th. He emailed me back and asked if I could move my arrival date to the 25th because now he wants to depart on the 26th. [...] But I told him if he could kick in half I would do it. [...] He then told me not to bother coming. ... ”
Recap;
Some skipper needed help moving his boat back from Bermuda, and had set a window for the move. He offered a berth and meals, nothing else.

You offered to help, arranged your transportation, and rearranged your schedule to accommodate his published window.

Four days before the planned departure, you learned that his schedule changed, and that you would now miss the window. You offered to meet his window, if he would pay Ĺ the airline change fee. He said no.

My take is this;
The skipper was inconsiderate in changing the departure date, and not letting you know ASAP. In fairness to him, it may have only changed hours before, but he should have reached out to you, not visa-versa. He also screwed you, because he knew that you had to buy airfare to meet him in Bermuda. He left you twisting in the breeze and found other crew.

I think that you found out that this is a guy that you should NOT want to be sailing with, and it only cost you $170 (or whatever airfare from Boston to Bermuda cost). Better to learn this now, then in an emergency situation while crossing the Gulf Stream. The site where you met this guy should have some form of feedback mechanism, a-la eBay, or even the Rep Power function of SailNet. The guy sounds like a self centered so-and-so...

That said, as someone that is in the legal profession, you know that worst case scenarios DO happen. You should have made clear that you would not buy a ticket unless he agreed that if either of you let the other down, there would be some consequence. From your perspective, in case of any circumstances, where he would not be able to sail with you (boat sunk/major equipment failure/change in weather window/etc) he would pay your airfare to Bermuda. Likewise, he may have stipulated that if you left him without crew (you get injured/a better offer/miss your plane) that you owe him the cost of securing other crew.
06-02-2014 08:28 AM
JonEisberg
Re: Pissed off crew

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by brokesailor View Post

The people here that are bashing Slayer are the same ones that then wonder about all those boats on the Salty Dawg Rally that get into trouble and end up setting off their EPIRB due to lack of experience. Cheers!!
JonE - you'll notice that broke's not talking about me. Heh-heh.
No worries, I'm still trying to figure out who's been "bashing" Slayer... :-)
06-02-2014 07:57 AM
smurphny
Re: Pissed off crew

It seems to me that a fair way to handle volunteer crew is to make it clear up front that you have a departure WINDOW and that a set date cannot be guaranteed and if the crew member is available during that window, a berth is guaranteed. If you are in a remote location and you want people to be available, you better be prepared to pay their expenses for the entire window or make it very clear that you will not pay their extended expenses. This would severely limit your ability to obtain anyone willing to take that kind of risk. To hide this situation is unethical at best.
06-02-2014 06:29 AM
SVAuspicious
Re: Pissed off crew

Quote:
Originally Posted by blowinstink View Post
Yeah, but if you accepted someone's offer to assist you with a delivery and they bought a ticket based on your request that they be somewhere at a certain time, you'd surely compensate them if you changed your mind, right?
In simple terms, of course.

That doesn't mean changes aren't possible. Communication is key.

If weather is coming through and it makes sense to depart a day early or three days late just lay that out to the crew and see what the impacts are. It's simple collaboration and courtesy.

If an owner pushes dates around I'll certainly push for reimbursement of the impacts to crew even if they are otherwise volunteers.
06-01-2014 04:03 PM
smackdaddy
Re: Pissed off crew

Quote:
Originally Posted by brokesailor View Post
The people here that are bashing Slayer are the same ones that then wonder about all those boats on the Salty Dawg Rally that get into trouble and end up setting off their EPIRB due to lack of experience. Cheers!!
JonE - you'll notice that broke's not talking about me. Heh-heh.
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