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Go Back   SailNet Community > Out There > Cruising & Liveaboard Forum > Living Aboard > Liveaborders that never leave the slip? I don't get it. Help!
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Thread: Liveaborders that never leave the slip? I don't get it. Help! Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
03-10-2015 06:10 AM
Minnewaska
Re: Liveaborders that never leave the slip? I don't get it. Help!

Cheers
03-10-2015 03:01 AM
MFurber
Re: Liveaborders that never leave the slip? I don't get it. Help!

Amen to that brother Jack....

I like having a good debate so Ill metaphorically shake brother Minnewaska,s hand and say we can agree to disagree that we sort of agree on some points but not all.....

Live Free - Sail Far
03-09-2015 07:45 PM
captain jack
Re: Liveaborders that never leave the slip? I don't get it. Help!

seems to me that there is, essentially, a morality quandry, here. there are two equally valid points, in different ways. on the one hand, like MFurber, i tend not to care what another person does on their own property, as long as it doesn't put me or my property at risk. i do believe that a person has a right to live as they will.

MFurber's issue is that Minnewaska is judging how another person lives their life. And he is right. You have to admit that, at least a little, Minnewaska. you are judging the messy boater negatively. however, the truth is, even if you believe a person should be allowed to live as they will, we all judge. all the time. yes, some of us keep it to ourselves. but, in our minds, we judge. i may believe, for instance, that the government (on any level) does not have a constitutional right to decide who may marry. that simply means that i feel people have a right to live as they choose. it doesn't mean that i haven't judged whether or not i agree with a certain type of lifestyle.

for instance, on land,i could care a less what color my neighbor paints his house. or if he has a basketball hoop in his driveway. or even if he has a broken down car in his driveway. it's not my business. that doesn't mean i may or may not approve of any of these things. however, if i don't think a junk car is a good thing to have in your driveway, my solution is to not have one in my driveway.

Minnewaska has a right to feel any way he wants about anyone he wants to; PC rules are really quite communist. he also has the right to free speech, for now. that means he can say what he feels.

and, in the free market, what we hsve left of a free market, he has a right to vote with his dollar. if he doesn't want to berh near a junky boat, he can choose to leave. it's his right.

i have a problem with him claiing live aboards (in general) are bad because they use more amenities. i mean, if they use more electricity, they pay for it in most marinas. however....

i think both of you are right on different levels. it's not good to judge others. although the christians just love to go around judging everyone, even their holy book states in several places that people shouldn't judge others.

but, we all do it...if only in our minds. and, to be honest, i'd rather someone act and speak their mind towards me than be false. if you don't liked me, that's cool. you don't have to, no skin off my back. but, don't pretend you like me but think i'm a jerk everytime we talk.

personally, i like a boat ship shape and bristol fashion. it's a safety issue, under way, and it's respect for your vessel. i won't hate you if your boat is a hog pen but, i'll probably think it's a hog pen. that can't be helped. we're all human. humans judge. it's actually a srvival mechanism. i won't lie. when i saw those pics, i was like," holy crap!" but, at the same time, i also thought," it's their boat, not mine."

and, on the other hand, everyone has a right to choose their environment. if you want a tidy marina, you have the right to choose to find one and berth in it.

i don't think the home owners association comparison is a good one, though.

you own your home. and, while you bought it knowing there was a home owners association and have no right to complain about it if you bought anyway, home owners associations are truly communist and at odds with the very ideals of the constitution.

but a marina is different. some people own their slips but most rent. that means it's not their property and, as on land, your landlord (waterlord?) has the right to set standards and evict if you do not follow them. apples and oranges.
03-09-2015 06:42 PM
Minnewaska
Re: Liveaborders that never leave the slip? I don't get it. Help!

I know what I find crapped up, when I see it. So does the marina. It's not a bristol requirement, but you can't keep junk on your deck. I only have the option to move, I don't take on the offender, nor have I seen many. Most already know this isn't acceptable. I don't know exactly how it's dealt with. I presume one would get a call from the manager asking that you keep things put away. If you refuse, your lease simply isn't renewed. It's their property, their rules.

Since you seem to have found a marina that suits you, as I have, we should both be happy. Somehow, it doesn't seem you are, unless all conform to where you set the bar.
03-09-2015 08:51 AM
MFurber
Re: Liveaborders that never leave the slip? I don't get it. Help!

Has your marina asked them to move?
What is the point a marina becomes untidy? Where is your line in the sand? Wasn't that the original point? You mentioned " your standards" At what point is somewhere to untidy for you or the marina?

Yes you have the right to move, but you suggest that the untidy person should move.... Sorry let me put that differently, you think that the marina should have the right to move that person when they get to untidy and that would suit you as you like it tidy....correct? And you agree that that is acceptable, that having not met yours or the marinas standards the marina should be allowed to move them?

Im saying it's a shame you and the marina are so intollerent towards what you call untidy boats in the first place. You absolutely have the right to tell us all how high your standards are, that you want a tidy marina, but that's my point, I have the right to say you are being intolerant towards fellow boaters with a different set of values to you that's all.

I am saying I like seeing an eclectic mix of boats around me and as long as there not encroaching onto my space then live and let live.
03-09-2015 06:56 AM
Minnewaska
Re: Liveaborders that never leave the slip? I don't get it. Help!

Quote:
Originally Posted by MFurber View Post

Answer = you move or you live with it until the marina owner makes a call....

......If the marina want him gone or to change they have that right -
You have a remarkable knack for arguing in favor of my point, but somehow trying to suggest I'm wrong at the same time.

Quote:
.....but for others that are NOT the marina to make a call....that IMO is WRONG....
This is clearly where you are wrong. I have every right to spend my money at a marina that keeps things tidy or move, if they don't. That's the only call I ever suggested I was entitled to make. You wanted me to confront the untidy, or make this about the person, but I never agreed. The marina has to decide if they care. It's pretty clear that our marina does care.
03-09-2015 06:45 AM
MFurber
Re: Liveaborders that never leave the slip? I don't get it. Help!

Like i said before - I fully understand everything your saying but its you who's not getting it.... When you say " It's about passing judgement on having crap lying around" there is no difference - its people that put the crap there, its people who decide what is and isn't crap and so by having a opinion on the level, quantity, size or otherwise of the crap you are essentially having a go at the person. If you have the crap removed then by proxy you are advocating upsetting / removing a person based on your opinion "NOT THE MARINAS".

i am fully aware that its ultimately the marinas call BUT you are not the marina, you are voicing an independent opinion and if you were the marina owner then i might be coming from a different angle.

There is no difference in passing judgment on your neighbors crap or passing judgment on your neighbor, they are one and the same, the crap is part of your neighbors life, a reflection of there personality thus, comment on the amount of (In your opinion) crap you comment about them.

If you neighbor is flouting guidelines set out in a marina mandate then - As long as its actually defined (Like i said one persons rubbish is another persons eclectic sense of style) then fair enough, give them a warning - they new what they were getting into when they signed the agreement.

BUT if there is no agreement then who is to define what is or isnt CRAP in the first place. You sent me 3 pictures of an untidy boat, i agree its untidy, you agree its untidy but the person that lives there obviously doesnt. My point is why bring it up in the first place. its simple.

You move to a marina lots of nice boats.
Person moves next to you and within a year its in your opinion its a mess
There is no agreement in place
It bothering you - NOT them.
Answer = you move or you live with it until the marina owner makes a call.

Why does somebody elses crap, on somebody else s land or boat bother you so much?
For some wooden boat enthusiasts they HATE... and I mean HATE the look of our plastic lozenges and would feel very much like the person next to them is mooring one lump of white, plastic crap in a birth that could be taken up by another lovely wooden boat.... If he voiced that opinion id have the same things to say to him.

As long as he isn't encroaching onto your land then what the heck!!!! If the marina want him gone or to change they have that right - but for others that are NOT the marina to make a call....that IMO is WRONG....
03-09-2015 06:13 AM
Minnewaska
Re: Liveaborders that never leave the slip? I don't get it. Help!

What part of "this is the marina owner's call" do you not follow? Not my call on what my neighbors do or don't do, I just get to vote with my dollars and move if I don't like it. The marina owner understands that most would and, therefore, chooses to keep the place more tidy.

Also, you want to insist this is about passing judgement on the people, but I have to continuously repeat myself. It's passing judgement on having crap lying around. Listen.

Presumably, your Charlotte neighbors didn't own the whole place, so it's not a good analogy. However, if you purchased subject to Home Owners Association authority, then that's what you signed up for. You could also vote with your dollars and move.
03-09-2015 05:25 AM
MFurber
Re: Liveaborders that never leave the slip? I don't get it. Help!

I'm sorry if you think im trying to put words in your mouth, not my intention but I do think your motives are clear, the fact that you use the word standards suggests you are measuring other peoples way of life buy your own "standards". Im mearly suggesting that whilst we all live by our own creed I'm I'm not sure I would.

A. Judge others solely by the way there boat looks.
B. make any comment that imposes my "standards" on anyone else.

Look we all have our own personal feelings, standards based on lots of things but I do try where possible to not impose them or even incite discussion based on others people's way of life.

Can I ask have you talked to any of your messy neighbours? That's not me being facicious that's a genuine question? I wonder if they would agree or admit that there space is messy, how would you react for instance if one of them asked you to not make so much noise on the weekend, I'm not suggesting your noisy, but I'm trying to flip the argument on it's head.

Just out of curiosity have you or any other person inthe marina ever asked them to clean there front yard? I have to say I don't really like the concept of neighbourhood groups, I used to go to Charlotte, NC years ago quite frequently and one of my colleagues had a house nearby,,Carowinds I think. His area had a neighbourhood group and every month they got together to impose there collective standards on everybody. He used to get a letter through the door if his grass was longer than a 1 inch!!!! I kid you not.... Do you advocate this? And if not tell me the difference between that and what you have suggested about standards?

I think the issue is, where do you draw the line?
03-09-2015 04:32 AM
Minnewaska
Re: Liveaborders that never leave the slip? I don't get it. Help!

You're trying your best to put words in my mouth, but I only said I would move, if my marina had crapped up boats in it. That simply means you should put your stuff away. I know I'm not alone, so the marina owner has to determine if having some standard is worth it to them. If not, that's their call. Not your call, not my call. That's how it works.

By the way, mine does have standards. The owner doesn't have to define this clearly. They simply reserve the right not to renew any lease. We all know it when we see it and they just aren't allowed back, in the rare instance it happens at all. The free market has them sold out every year, especially for slips over 40ish feet. Like I said originally, you would never know which were the few boats in our marina that had liveaboards upon them. Not everyone is required to have a perfect house, but all are required to keep their property in reasonably condition (ie no crap on the front lawn).

If you like crap on yours or your neighbors deck, you have the same right I do. Go elsewhere.

I also acknowledge that the marina owner can determine whether they want liveaboards at all, who must clearly burden the facilities more than part time boaters. Inoperable boats may be a black water contamination risk, if they can't get to the pump out. All the owners call.
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