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Go Back   SailNet Community > Out There > Cruising & Liveaboard Forum > Living Aboard > Liveaborders that never leave the slip? I don't get it. Help!
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Thread: Liveaborders that never leave the slip? I don't get it. Help! Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
23 Hours Ago 07:58 PM
killarney_sailor
Re: Liveaborders that never leave the slip? I don't get it. Help!

Years ago I had a friend with an Ericson 29 who found a new condo development in North Carolina that wanted to use its marina to promote sales of the units. They offered free dockage for anyone who go out for a Sunday afternoon beer can race. Bill was in the midst of getting the boat ready to sail across the Atlantic with his wife and two daughters and the boat was loaded to the gills except the Atomic 4 was removed as he was going to put in a diesel in a few months. Anyway, every Sunday he got towed out of the harbour (wife and kids stayed onshore) and he did his race. Probably did OK, he was a good sailor.

To finish the story, he sailed to England, went through the canals in France and back across the Atlantic and then through Panama and ended up in Victoria. His wife got off the boat there and never stepped on it again.
23 Hours Ago 07:18 PM
JonEisberg
Re: Liveaborders that never leave the slip? I don't get it. Help!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimMcGee View Post
Jon, I have to disagree with you on this one. If someone pays for the boat and pays for the slip what right does anyone have to tell them how to use that boat and slip.

You (and I for that matter) value our time out on the water. But I also enjoy the social time at the marina. Hell just being on board and working on the boat is a pleasure.

There are folks in our marina who live for fishing, for going fast, for diving, etc. And for several years we had a dock neighbor on a big power boat who just came down, sipped wine and read. The only moving they did was around the cockpit to stay in the shade.

Boats are about pleasure and one pleasure is no more valuable than another...

Jim
Well, I don't disagree with you in principle, but I think some may not be aware of what a problem this can be in some other parts of the States... California, for example. As I said earlier, if I were paying a hefty annual fee to hold my spot in line for a slip in a particular harbor where the waiting list was as much as 20 years, I'd be a bit miffed if a significant percentage of the slipholders were more or less 'squatting' there, and rarely using the resource that harbors and marinas are designed to provide access to...

LATITUDE 38 has long advocated a "Use It or Lose It" approach to the scarcity of slips on the Bay, and elsewhere in California... In fact, it turns out such a policy has been in effect in places like Santa Cruz for quite some time. Seems reasonable enough to me, if for no other reason than it weeds out those boats and owners that are not capable of moving under their own power...

This is from LATITUDE 38's "Letters" section, way back in 2001:

Quote:

SCARCITY OF BERTHS

We are currently cruising in the Sea of Cortez and I just got a copy of your May issue, which addresses the subject of the scarcity of berths in San Francisco. As former San Francisco residents, sailors and liveaboards, we are obviously interested in the subject.

While it may be intellectually interesting to categorize boat uses - how much a boat is used, the manner in which it is being used - I believe that attempting to allocate slips in such a manner is futile and could ultimately create another bureaucracy. Think about it, if we allocate a slip based on frequency of use, who is going to monitor the use? And what happens if one year I use the boat less? Do I get relegated to a lower priority for a slip? Or for that matter, what happens if I use my boat more? Just think about all of the arguments going on to decide such issues. How about another agency that reviews all of this and makes the decisions?

If we agree that we do not need another level of people monitoring and managing something like this, why not rely on the old standby economic theory: 'supply and demand'. Let that ultimately regulate the problem, which it ultimately will. If the marina raises the berth fees, the person who can't afford it and doesn't make his/her boat a high priority in his/her life will have to move further out - say to San Leandro. On the other hand, a person who is into boating - be it as a liveaboard or daysailing - will be more than willing to shell out bigger bucks to satisfy his/her interest.

What I'm trying to say is that we should keep things simple and not think up a way to create another bloated bureaucracy that decides what you and I can and cannot do. Yes, there are problems, but throwing rules and regulations at something like this is, in our opinion, not the preferred way. Besides, we don't attempt to regulate the 'land-based' housing market with its problems in such a manner, so why berths?

Thomas and Kathryn Knueppel
Tai Tam II
San Francisco / Currently in the Sea of Cortez

Thomas & Kathryn - To the contrary, we think there are any number of ways that a 'use it or lose it' system could be implemented without the need for a complicated bureaucracy. Say the berth fee is currently $8/foot/month. Raise the berth fee to $24/foot/month, but allow credits for use. If a boat goes out 12 times a year, the fee drops to $16/foot/month. If the boat goes out 24 times a year, the fee drops to the original $8/foot/month. Monitoring is simple. Boatowners check out on a computer. Those caught checking out without actually leaving the berth get 'fined' 20 credits. If somebody doesn't take their boat out a certain minimum number of times in two years and the marina has a waiting list, their boat gets the boot and has to relocate to Port Sonoma or some other relatively empty marina on the periphery of the Bay. What could be easier?

Or make more sense? We think the results would be quick, clear, and positive - at least for those who view water access as the purpose of boats and marinas. After all, folks who used prime berths to store unused boats would be fiscally prompted to relocate to less desirable marinas. Folks who used boats solely as housing would have to pay more typical Bay Area housing prices - or be forced to persuade the citizens of California that using a boat strictly as a residence is a proper use of public trust lands. (Elsewhere in this issue, you'll read that one of California's most powerful legislators has suggested just that!) And best of all, people who wanted to use boats and marinas for their intended purpose would actually get a shot at a slip that didn't require them to burn tons of fossil fuels and leisure time just to reach the good sailing areas of San Francisco Bay.

Just today we learned that somebody thought of the 'use it or lose it' concept before we did! Namely Santa Cruz Municipal Yacht Harbor - although it turns out that they aren't the only ones. According to Kimbra Eldridge, the Operations Manager, every berth renter in Santa Cruz is required to use their boat 10 times a year. No compliance means they lose their slip. 'Use' means you check in with the harbor office, tell them you're going to use the boat, then wave at them or contact them by radio as you exit the harbor. Technically, all you have to do is get past the jetty, at which point you can come right back. Exceptions are made for extenuating circumstances, such as illness and ususual work schedules. They try to 'work' with their tenants. If somebody is identified as a non-user, they are sent a letter. This usually gets people to either use their boats more or to realize their boat is no longer very important to them. According to Eldridge, it's been found that this system "keeps the ball rolling" on slips. Right now, there are 60 boats on the 'non-use' list. While this may sound mean to folks threatened with losing their slip, there's another side to it: There are 1,100 people who pay $65 a year just to be on the waiting list for a slip at Santa Cruz. If they're looking for a slip in the South Harbor - where you don't have to lower your mast each time you leave and re-enter the harbor - there's an 18 to 20-year wait!

The way we see it, the 'use it or lose it' scheme fits perfectly with your formula of supply and demand - without the unpleasant side-effect of boatowners having to pay much higher prices for berths. There is a limited supply of berths for access to the Bay and ocean, and those with the greatest demand - i.e. the desire for that access - get the supply. Our system would be based on who wants the access most, not who has the most money. In these days of wealthy folks willing to pay tens of thousands of dollars for better located slips, we think it's something that all boatowners might want to keep in mind.


Latitude 38 Letters - August 2001
1 Day Ago 06:48 PM
bvander66
Re: Liveaborders that never leave the slip? I don't get it. Help!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
I'm not going to knock anyone whose life is too busy to go sailing. However, for those working couples (like us) that don't live aboard fulltime and find the time to get out sailing on a weekend, all the same conflicts exist. Not sure why being a liveaboard makes them any more time consuming.

As for social commitments, we pretty much make it known that we are not available from May to Oct. We make the rare exception (not surprisingly on bad weather weekends usually), but once you start accepting summer invites, they never end. We've instead offered to host events aboard our boat which we're being invited to. Family has taken us up on birthday get togethers, etc, several times. We always take them sailing.
Well those 3 years I was still in uniform, so when i say social commitment the emphasis is on commitment as most were concidered a parade.
on our dock we have 5 liveaboards, of which three were spending spare time getting vessels seaworthy for extended cruising vice day sailing, we are now year 5 in the bahamas, slip mate year 4 summers in NE US, the third now 7/8 through their circumnavigation. Did we want to go out fo a day sail, sure, but decided getting boat ready was worth the sacrifice.
1 Day Ago 04:29 PM
JimMcGee
Re: Liveaborders that never leave the slip? I don't get it. Help!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
... Seems reasonable enough to me, as I take the view that marinas in regions where dock space is so precious really should be geared towards those who actually SAIL their boats, as opposed to being parking lots for boats that never move... But, perhaps that's just me... :-)
Jon, I have to disagree with you on this one. If someone pays for the boat and pays for the slip what right does anyone have to tell them how to use that boat and slip.

You (and I for that matter) value our time out on the water. But I also enjoy the social time at the marina. Hell just being on board and working on the boat is a pleasure.

There are folks in our marina who live for fishing, for going fast, for diving, etc. And for several years we had a dock neighbor on a big power boat who just came down, sipped wine and read. The only moving they did was around the cockpit to stay in the shade.

Boats are about pleasure and one pleasure is no more valuable than another...

Jim
1 Day Ago 11:15 AM
flandria
Re: Liveaborders that never leave the slip? I don't get it. Help!

Even up here, in Ontario, Canada, we have live-aboards - complete with bubbling systems to prevent the ice from crushing hulls in winter and tents to keep the snow off the deck and some heat inside... Given the price of a used boat and the annual marina fees, compared to a house purchase, utilities, taxes and upkeep, it is actually very cheap accommodation and it cannot be a surprise that a number of boat-dwellers are more interested in housing than carousing on the water...
1 Day Ago 09:00 AM
zeehag
Re: Liveaborders that never leave the slip? I don't get it. Help!

as goes california so goes the nation seems to continue to be the case. cali was made no
anchoring more than 72 hours. seems as if fla is following closely on the heels of no anchor kali.
the problem wasnt so much the looks of the boats in free anchorages, but abuse by the monied folks who dropped drifters into the anchorage then reported same to the authorities..
was a lot of excitement for a few years, then no anchoring.
seems there are not enough of us who live aboard to make a real difference, nor do we have enough dough to fight the landowner in this arena.
"they" will blame the derelict looking boats, but the reality is otherwise. the authorities use the number of calls to police initiated by all folks in area, then state the anchorage was closed due to excessive calls to police by the owners of homes-- number of calls=high crime rate, irrelevant to type of call. is merely numbers of calls recorded into the police dispatch.
the entire anchoring out issue is down to the ability to CONTROL the populace.. we who anchor out are not controllable, therefore we will be gotten rid of.
1 Day Ago 10:34 PM
JonEisberg
Re: Liveaborders that never leave the slip? I don't get it. Help!

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeehag View Post

if one is a judgemental ocd sufferer, one could go freeking stark raving mad with alladis bs.
so why bother worrying about the alleged problem.
no dock space?? anchor out. cannot anchor out?? why not..fix problem. relocate. sell boat. wtf...aint my business..dock queen?? who cares??
so , dont blow a gasket in yer brane- live your life and let the ones who dont give a ratsass be.
Nothing inherently wrong with such sentiments, of course... But, I suspect they might fly a bit farther in places like Mexico, than in many of the places some of us sail here in the States... :-)

"Anchoring out" an unattended boat, long term, simply is not permitted in many of the more popular sailing centers in the US... And, in places like the Florida Keys, when those "who don't give a rat's ass" leave a POS like this sitting in front of a bunch of very expensive waterfront homes in Islamorada, well... It's bound to become more than an "alleged problem"...

One that is already affecting many of us in places like Florida, and is bound to affect all of us, in the long run...


1 Day Ago 10:28 PM
hellsop
Re: Liveaborders that never leave the slip? I don't get it. Help!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mbianka View Post
Because they can't. Always thought it interesting the Indians did have movable shelters and were wise enough to never build permanent structures near the shoreline.
Heh. Shorelines move. Considering the amount of stuff that's less than 10 feet over mean high tide in southern Florida, and what may happen to sea levels before those mortgages are up... There might be a LOT of moving..
1 Day Ago 09:57 PM
mbianka
Re: Liveaborders that never leave the slip? I don't get it. Help!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don0190 View Post
You know, being a liveaboard and leaving the dock aren't necessary connected. In the real world people don't move their house too often.
Because they can't. Always thought it interesting the Indians did have movable shelters and were wise enough to never build permanent structures near the shoreline.
2 Days Ago 06:28 PM
Don0190
Re: Liveaborders that never leave the slip? I don't get it. Help!

You know, being a liveaboard and leaving the dock aren't necessary connected. In the real world people don't move their house too often.
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