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Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest > General Discussion (sailing related) > Minimum waterline length for not-too-unpleasant PacCup/TransPac
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Thread: Minimum waterline length for not-too-unpleasant PacCup/TransPac Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
10-01-2007 12:34 AM
KeelHaulin Your requirements seem to be less performance, more offshore/cruising, right? In terms of sailing "comfort" you should probably be looking into a performance factors known as "motion comfort", and "capsize ratio" as secondary; this will help describe what the relative ease of comfort and stability the boat will have while sailing. See the following calculators ( http://www.image-ination.com/sailcalc.html and http://www1.iwvisp.com/download/pub/...ail%20data.xls ) The light ULDB boats tend to pound when beating to winward in chop and I'm sure you have experienced this on the Olson 30 and J/105. This is much less so in a heavier displacement boat that is not "beamy". In terms of the sec/mile requirement; you will have an easier time finding a boat that is sub-144 sec/mile in a longer LOA hull. I don't think many older/heavier boats under 35 feet LOA will meet this criteria. That number pretty much rules out boats like an older Catalina 30 or Newport 30, etc (A Newport 30 won the PacCup on corrected time in 1998 BTW). The 144 number might be reduced further in 5 years so plan ahead on that also.

I don't think many of the boats you'll consider would be a problem in terms of sailing them TO Hawaii or Cabo (when properly equipped); it's the return trip that will beat the boat and you up. I'll suggest getting on a crew for the HaHa or TransPac/PacCup on a boat that you would consider for your own (including return trips). That way you will get the sailing experience to someday do it single handed and get experience on a boat you might choose or similar. There are also lots of different boats sailing in PHRF on SF Bay and coastal that you can utilize as a "buyer's guide" to help build your short list.

The Dana 24 looks like a heavily built boat on the performance numbers; 8000lbs, 1.7 Capsize Ratio, Motion Comfort 31.5. If you don't plan to race (just do crossings) it might be a good choice for the task. Check out the "optimal blue water cruiser" page of the "sail data" spreadsheet; this might help narrow your search significantly. Looks like my boat (a Newport 41) fits his "optimal" calculation very nicely!
09-30-2007 10:44 PM
albertoderoma
Quote:
Originally Posted by chris_gee View Post
I don't follow your friend's comment that with the typical wavelengths of the Pacific a 35' boat can ride the crests most of the time.
Oceanwatch gives these figures. "Typically, the period of a long swell wave is 20 seconds, its length 624 m (2,040 ft), and its speed, 31.2 m/sec (102.3 ft/sec); a swell wave has a period of 10 seconds, a length of 156 m (510 ft), and a speed of 15.6 m/sec (51 ft/sec); and a wind sea wave has a period of 7 seconds, a length of 76 m (246 ft), and a speed of 10.9 m/sec (35.7 ft/sec). Waves in bays have rather shorter periods of about 3 seconds, and are 14 m (45 ft) long, with a speed of 4.7 m/sec (15.4 ft/sec); and ripples on ponds have periods of 0.5 seconds, and are 0.4 m (1.3 ft) long, with a speed of 0.8 m/sec (2.6 ft/sec)."
Just taking the ocean swell and windwaves wavelengths of 156 and 77m the wavespeeds are roughly 31 knots and 22 knots.
You would need a rather fast boat to travel at those speeds most of the time. Logically you would be on the rising part of the swell for just over half the period going downwind pretty much regardless of the boat length.
In shallow water you may be able to stay on the face at 9-10 knots for a proportion of the time, more so if the boat is designed to surf easily.
That reasoning of boat length in relation to wavelength seems to me to apply mainly in short choppy conditions in shallow water where the longer water line boat is supported on more than one wave rather than ploughing up and down each one.
Hi Chris,

Great analysis, and I reached a similar conclusion - which would contradict my friend's Steve's assertion, that's why I asked this forum. I can believe that bigger boats might give a more comfortable ride (all things being equals) but I did not buy the crest-to-crest story for the ocean.

Alberto
09-30-2007 10:36 PM
chris_gee I don't follow your friend's comment that with the typical wavelengths of the Pacific a 35' boat can ride the crests most of the time.
Marinewatch gives these figures. "Typically, the period of a long swell wave is 20 seconds, its length 624 m (2,040 ft), and its speed, 31.2 m/sec (102.3 ft/sec); a swell wave has a period of 10 seconds, a length of 156 m (510 ft), and a speed of 15.6 m/sec (51 ft/sec); and a wind sea wave has a period of 7 seconds, a length of 76 m (246 ft), and a speed of 10.9 m/sec (35.7 ft/sec). Waves in bays have rather shorter periods of about 3 seconds, and are 14 m (45 ft) long, with a speed of 4.7 m/sec (15.4 ft/sec); and ripples on ponds have periods of 0.5 seconds, and are 0.4 m (1.3 ft) long, with a speed of 0.8 m/sec (2.6 ft/sec)."
Just taking the ocean swell and windwaves wavelengths of 156 and 77m the wavespeeds are roughly 31 knots and 22 knots.
You would need a rather fast boat to travel at those speeds most of the time. Logically you would be on the rising part of the swell for just over half the period going downwind pretty much regardless of the boat length.
In shallow water you may be able to stay on the face at 9-10 knots for a proportion of the time, more so if the boat is designed to surf easily.
That reasoning of boat length in relation to wavelength seems to me to apply mainly in short choppy conditions in shallow water where the longer water line boat is supported on more than one wave rather than ploughing up and down each one.
09-30-2007 03:08 PM
albertoderoma
Quote:
Originally Posted by catamount View Post
The Transpac has minimum standards for boats that they will allow in the race. ...
Thanks catamount,

Yes, the minimum requirements are a major consideration.

27' LOA seems to be the rough minimum for most of these races, although the SSS Transpac (the single-handed version) seems to be happy accepting boats as small as 24'.

Alberto
09-30-2007 03:02 PM
albertoderoma Hi John,

Thank you for your thoughtful replies and suggestions. I am definitely looking into Pacific Seacrafts - they have a lot of fans and repeat buyers.

Alberto
09-30-2007 02:18 PM
albertoderoma
Quote:
Originally Posted by blt2ski View Post
What is wrong with a J105 for what you want to do. There is one fellow here in the NW that has done the Vic-maui a few times with one, and is now headed out for a 2 yr cruise in one!

if you want it to be a bit nicer, a J109 might fit the bill if this is a style of boat you like. The dana's or equal are nice yachts, there are a few locally in my marina on the sound. Look slower than the perverbial dead slug going backwards!

Then again, i think even if I was going to do a world cruise or some uch race as transpac/vic-maui/Van-isle, I would look at seaworthy fin keel personally vs a full keel. that is me, there is no right or wrong to what type of boat one should choose!

marty
Hi Marty,

I am 6'1" and the J/105 accommodations are a bit too uncomfortable and spartan for a 2weeks+ trip. What can I say, I've done the ULDB and 4' of headroom thing, I am looking for a change of pace. The J/109 looks fabulous and quite possibly it's the best combination racer/cruiser out there - but the go for $220K+ USED and sell almost immediately in the used market.

Alberto
09-30-2007 12:20 AM
sailingdog While the Mini Transats are purpose-built boats, they are relatively fragile boats from what I've seen. Jesse Rowse, used to keep his Mini, Reality—USA 176, up in Boston Harbor, and was fairly paranoid about any possible damage to the boat. Many race boats are actually more lightly constructed than cruising boats of the same size. It might also be worth remembering how many of the Volvo Ocean Race and Open 60 boats had serious structural and mechanical problems, including the sinking of Hugo Boss.
09-29-2007 11:23 PM
catamount
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tartan34C View Post
The waterline on the boat I used for my first solo trans-Atlantic was only 16 feet 3 inches. I found that boat to be more then adequate for the trip and think that the racing rule was made for the most part to guarantee that all contestants finished in a reasonable time and not because a smaller boat was unsafe. In many cases a small boat is safer then a larger boat and look at all the Mini Transit boats or MORC and JOG boats that race offshore. Lots of boats less then 22 feet long in these races.
Indeed Robert, there was a whole class of Mini Transat boats that took part in the Bermuda 1-2 Race this year. Still, most of these small ocean-going boats are purpose-built, with a lot of attention to detail -- they are NOT your typical 20-something trailer sailer!

And if Alberto really is interested in participating in a Transpac or PacCup, he does need to make sure the boat he chooses meets the minimum standards for eligibility, i.e. greater than 26' LOA and reasonably fast (PHRF<144), which rule out the Dana24, Alberg 30, and some of the other boats suggested here (even the Mini 6.5's).

Regards,
09-29-2007 11:04 PM
blt2ski What is wrong with a J105 for what you want to do. There is one fellow here in the NW that has done the Vic-maui a few times with one, and is now headed out for a 2 yr cruise in one!

if you want it to be a bit nicer, a J109 might fit the bill if this is a style of boat you like. The dana's or equal are nice yachts, there are a few locally in my marina on the sound. Look slower than the perverbial dead slug going backwards!

Then again, i think even if I was going to do a world cruise or some uch race as transpac/vic-maui/Van-isle, I would look at seaworthy fin keel personally vs a full keel. that is me, there is no right or wrong to what type of boat one should choose!

marty
09-29-2007 11:40 AM
JohnRPollard Alberto,

Don't discount the Dana 24 solely on your friend's advice. Sure, a longer boat will get you there faster (usually), but plenty of Atlantic and Pacific crossings have been made safely and comfortably in the Dana. One owner from Japan picked his new boat up in CA a few years ago and proceeded to sail home single handed.

I suggested the Dana in your previous thread based on your sailing location, and also based on our prior ownership experience with one. The Dana may not be the best light air performer (althought it's not bad in light air either), but this would really be a great boat for singlehanding around boisterous SF Bay and beyond. And from my personal vantage, I can say not a morning passed where I woke up aboard that boat and did not feel immense gratitude and pride in owning that tidy little ship. It is a veritable testiment to ingenious naval architecture -- thank you Bill Crealock -- and quality build by PSC.

Cameraderie suggested, among others, the PSC Crealock 37. If I recall your price range correctly, it will be challenging to find many examples for less than $100K that aren't getting pretty long in the tooth (I think you mentioned you don't want a project boat). Its smaller sisters, the Crealock 34 and Crealock 31, can more often be found in your price range. If you like the open interior layout of the Dana, the Crealock 31's is almost identical, but with the addition of a nav station and large quarter berth.

There looks to be a nice Dana for sale right there on SF Bay.

Our old Dana, now in the PacNW, and looking better than ever:



Light air sailing in the San Juans:

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