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Ocean baby rescue underway off Mexico

87K views 619 replies 90 participants last post by  smackdaddy 
#1 ·
A U.S. Navy warship reached a crippled sailboat hundreds of kilometres off the Mexican coast and was preparing Sunday to complete the rescue of a sick one-year-old girl.

"...the sailboat, which does not have steering or communication abilities" - this can't be right. According to the article the sailboat takes on water when the engine runs, so "It's now slowly moving using only the sails." Doesn't mention any issue with the rudder etc. I guess that must be another example of journalistic accuracy in action.

I hope all goes well with the transfer, and with the family's voyage.
 
#526 ·
man I just dont know enough about what the kauffmans did before their trip, their blog etc...to realize that they KNEW about shoddy satellite phone service


see if they didnt, and wanted to make a call and it failed cause if a bad chip or whatever that would piss anyone off,

BUT if they alread had problems, left anyway, and then come back to sue thats two timing and just as shoddy

this is so weird still to me...

dont know who to beleive really
 
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#527 ·
man I just dont know enough about what the kauffmans did before their trip, their blog etc...to realize that they KNEW about shoddy satellite phone service

see if they didnt, and wanted to make a call and it failed cause if a bad chip or whatever that would piss anyone off,

BUT if they alread had problems, left anyway, and then come back to sue thats two timing and just as shoddy

this is so weird still to me...

dont know who to beleive really
On a site that does not allow you to delete your own posts (although they do delete whole threads or posts if they feel they violate the TOS) Eric himself said that they do not rely on the SAT phone as it is flukey. And they have had many issues with the operator. They KNEW. Of course to be fair that was some time before they went on their journey. 5 DAYS! (post dated from 15-03-2014, 14:40)

The actions of trying to delete posts, rewrite history, and find someone else to blame and working with a lawyer who specializes in publicity rather then law.... is the part that disheartens me.

Eric in the past has been presenting himself as a licensed USCG 100 Ton certified captain... aware of what he is doing... Dismissing others....

And then this happens...

:(
 
#529 ·
they dont, read latitude 38 updates and you will see spotty sattelite phone service, especialy lately, this is a new thing

satellite phones are going the way of cellohone providers, with their plans, limited time, minutes that expire and or service plans that need to be continously activated...

what the hell is the purpose of that may I ask?

I remember back in the late 90s I was lent a satellite phone and that dang thing was as reliable and trustworthy as they come...there was NO question on wether they would work or not(maybe in a sever severe storm it might drop a call)

seems this is not so anymore

regardless of what these guys do, there is a point to be made and that is, that no aid to navigation or emergency system is infallible...
 
#530 ·
I agree totally that nothing is infallible. I also agree with the buyer beware advice. After somewhat following the discussion prior to this lawsuit thing I realize that suing the phone company for the total loss of the boat and insinuating that the success or failure of that cruise was solely dependent on sat phone service is just ridiculous. I do however feel that IF the sat phone provider failed to provide reasonable reliability implied by their advertising, they should be held accountable.
 
#543 ·
No more speculation.. We have some 'facts'. There is more then media bluster... Here is the lawsuit:

Plaintiff Charlotte Kaufman ("Charlotteo) is an adult who resides in San Diego County, California. Charlotte has an ASA Basic Keelboat Certification, and has substantial experience sailing the California and Channel Island coasts, down Baja California, in the Sea of Cortez, the Pacific Coast of Mexico, and blue water sailing in the Pacific Ocean. She has lived aboard ship since 2007, and has raised both ofher daughters from birth on her sailboat. Charlotte is also a PADI certified diver. At all material times, she was the registered owner of a 36.17' Hans Christian Yacht, CA Hull ID XSA000040675, USCG 1101961,named the Rebel Heart.
Most intriguing to me is the 'fact' that Charlotte Kaufman sailed extensively down baja coast (different fact then what was posted on their blog) and blue water sailing in the Pacific Ocean.

I now see that their blog is just for entertainment, and in real life things happen quite differently....... or am I missing something.....?
 
#544 · (Edited)
No more speculation.. We have some 'facts'. There is more then media bluster... Here is the lawsuit:

Most intriguing to me is the 'fact' that Charlotte Kaufman sailed extensively down baja coast (different fact then what was posted on their blog) and blue water sailing in the Pacific Ocean.

I now see that their blog is just for entertainment, and in real life things happen quite differently....... or am I missing something.....?
That actually struck me as well in their interview. RH-The-Feminine spoke glowingly about off-shore cruising with their kids in the interview - how it "ruins you for anything else" - while pretty much all she did was complain about it the whole time on their blog.

Which is the truth?

Interesting that she is the owner/plaintiff and RH-The-Masculine is a co-owner and "nominal defendant". (I know, it's technical language.)
 
#545 ·
I'm certainly not going to go so far to conclude Whenever didn't screw something up on this deal (especially not knowing what the service contract laid out)...but, based upon what I've seen in the blog, in forum posts, etc. - some of this language is giggle-inducing:

9. Prior to leaving, the Kaufmans prepared diligently for their voyage, packing and planning the trip for years. Although Lyra was recently sick in Mexico, her physician had cleared her for departure on the voyage, and the Kaufman's had ample medication and supplies in their fully stocked medicine locker.
11. Another important safety preparation for the Kaufmans was obtaining and packing a satellite phone, which occurred on August 13,2012, when Eric purchased the phone and executed a service plan agreement with Whenever at its SatellitePhoneStore.corn location in Point Lorna, California (San Diego County). At the time Eric purchased the phone, Whenever knew or should have known that Eric would use the phone on sea voyages and that other, non-signatories would reasonably rely upon the satellite phone not being deactivated without Eric's consent or for other reasons (e.g., non-payment of the bill).
Hoo boy.
 
#546 ·
I'm certainly not going to go so far to conclude Whenever didn't screw something up on this deal (especially not knowing what the service contract laid out)...but, based upon what I've seen in the blog, in forum posts, etc. - some of this language is giggle-inducing:

Hoo boy.
The only way this works is if the blog is a fiction. After all, on the blog it was mentioned how Eric Singlehanded down baja. But in the lawsuit...... She is a 'bluewater' sailor that went down coast of baja...

I wonder if their lawyer read their blog before writing this work of fiction...
 
#547 ·
Therein lays the problem, the more this goes on the less the pieces fit. Honestly I am at a loss as to what to think or who to believe at this point. The judge will have their hands full trying to sort this one out. The sad part for me is this could have been a learning lesson and now it is just a convoluted soap opera.

Here is another angle on things just for ****s and giggles REBEL HEART: Lawsuit Against Sat-Phone Provider

At least it is all entertaining!
 
#549 · (Edited)
the truth will always come to the top of any epic nonstory. this is same, as no one will ever really know, except those around to read the first part of the epic saga will remember what was said, and some specific souls who were recipients of the calls he was successfully able to make before arriving on terra firma............... hhhhmmmmmm

i was actually finding entertainment in his tales of woe--different each time told....

in wws, a fb group she founded, women who sail.. what a misnomer.... she tells of hotels and airplanes and buses.
there is no evidence that she sailed coastal mexico with him.. she actually asked of me, where she should go to have her baby. what hospital is best for that in mexico. they wanted somewhere near a marina, and with good transportation services. ok. i gave her a list--she chose nuevo vallarta. nice new and clean private ****** used clinic and hospital near 2 marinas not used by the rh family. it was during these communications i earned of her seasickness, and that she hadnt planned on sailing with the boat as long as she was preggers.
 
#550 · (Edited)
I posted this over on SA, but I really think this is going to become a crux issue in this debacle - and has potential implications for everyone cruising off-shore with kids:

armido, on 16 Jul 2014 - 09:36, said:
Well said. I'd rather sail alone than have a chronically seasick person aboard. It's like having a cadaver aboard. Dead weight. Except unfortunately, you still have to care for them. :huh:

Panoramix, on 16 Jul 2014 - 09:17, said:
+1

It's always easy to be wise with hindsight.

Also it is much harder to sail with inefffective seasick/ill people on board than to sail solo. Sure some crews would have managed to repair somehow the boat and to limp somewhere sailing the old fashioned way but not all crews are composed of Parlier style super heroes. And anyway they would have gambled their daughter life doing this.


smackdaddy, on 16 Jul 2014 - 13:11, said:
This is an aspect that I think, when explored in more detail, will cause some additional discussion on "parenting at sea". In a situation like this, where you KNOW you're going to be cut-off from medical services for an extended period - does knowing techniques for administering medicine to your very young child when they want to spit it out become a reasonably critical piece of knowledge?

As mentioned in the complaint, the RHs had everything they needed already onboard to care for their daughter. The SAR dudes used exactly what was there and she quickly improved.

RH is also apparently an EMT.

So what responsibility does a parent/EMT have in knowing how to properly use/administer the medical means they themselves have brought along? And what liability does a satphone company have in relation to this knowledge or lack of it - when the circumstances make it clear that the parent/EMT has voluntarily assumed an increased burden of responsibility by their action of "leaving the grid"?

Interesting.
PS: I thank MOD for how things are handled on SN. CF is ridiculous. They close every single thread discussing this case, when it ABSOLUTELY has relevance to what we all love to do. It's like junior high over there.
 
#551 · (Edited)
passing emt cert for cattle boat driving, his former profession, 50 ton cpt, fishing tour (cattle) boats, san diego, his boating experience, en toto. is not emt work or experience at all in any way shape or form. he got to drive after a stint of putting bandaids on hoooked fingers.
when i lived in sd i asked around as to what the requirements were to work the cattle boats--i didnt wanna be captain, i just wanted to work the boat-- lol.. yes emt required for service on a cattle boat,. and minimum 50 ton master to drive em
 
#555 · (Edited)
Before I was a PA, I was an EMT. Let me tell you the big downside of being an EMT. They can't possibly train you in all the stuff you need to know to make a real medical diagnosis. To do that, you need Medical School, PA or NP school. Unfortunately in EMT school, they pretty much ONLY teach you the bad stuff. That's okay for your role, because your role is to watch for the bad stuff, and take them bodily to the hospital for the medical providers to sort out.

Problem is, everything seems bad. I'll give an example. As a young, 20something healthy EMT, I was grocery shopping, and I got into my car. I looked at my stereo, and all the numbers were jumbled up. Damn! Stereo must be broken. Then I looked up at a street sign, which I know reads "NW Market ST". Problem was, what I SAW was "NW _________ St". The middle part was inexplicably missing.

I immediately drove myself to the closest ER (about 5 blocks away) and the symptoms rapildly progressed until the entire left half of my vision was gone. I was completely freaking out, thinking stroke, or retinal detachment, or retinal artery occlusion. All very bad things.

The ER doc comes in, is totally unimpressed and after about a 3 minute history and exam, and says I'm having a painless migraine. He's going to leave and just wait and it should resolve. He refused my pleas for a CT or MRI.

Of course, he was right. 20 minutes later, everything was back to normal. As a Doc, he had enough training to know that a healthy 20something essentially CAN'T have an embolic stroke or retinal artery occlusion and there was no history to suspect retinal detachment and 10-ish percent of all migraines are painless and I was just experiencing the "aura" before my painless migraine. As an EMT I had a list of things it could be, but they were only catastrophic things.

Point being, if I was on a boat at the time, I would have called MAYDAY without a doubt.

Generally the more medical training you have, the better, but there are select cases where it can put you in the "knows just enough to be dangerous" category. It's "possible" that his EMT training helped him to want to push the button on the EPIRB because his list of known possibilities for kiddo's issue were only a select list of bad bad things. At my current level of training and experience, my list of what can be happening to kiddo in similar circumstances includes a lot of benign things...

MedSailor

PS As far as administering the drugs, he was doing that as a non-trained person. He got advice by sat phone to administer them by the Mexican doctor. It's exactly the same as when you go to your doc and he/she prescribes antibiotics. You "administer" them to yourself on their order. Eric didn't unilaterally decide to start giving his kids oral antibiotics and steroids. No IV meds were given.
 
#556 · (Edited)
Med - I completely understand, and agree with what you're saying in general. And I want to make it clear that the mayday in this case was the best possible outcome. Absolutely no argument there.

BUT, in the larger context of taking such a long, isolated passage with young children, why did they have onboard prescription-strength medication and even (apparently) the oral syringes to administer it in non-tablet form - without the knowledge of how to administer it to an uncooperative child?

In other words, if you're going to have a fully stocked "medical-grade" kit, shouldn't you have the requisite basic knowledge of how to use it? Isn't it more dangerous to have these potent "tools" in the first place if you have no idea how to use them?

You are absolutely the expert here, and I will defer to your opinion. But it is very strange to me that something this "basic" would confound a trained EMT - or even a mom - to the point we saw in this particular incident and this resulting lawsuit. And, more importantly, it begs the question of, IF this was the straw that could break the camel's back for this family, why and how could they feel comfortable being so far away from the medical care they so obviously relied on? It just doesn't add up.

From what I've seen, this isn't about diagnosing an illness or even formulating a dosage...it's about a technique for getting medicine down a young child who doesn't want it. That's a different kettle of hamsters than diagnosing a painless migraine isn't it?
 
#557 ·
Admittedly I haven't read every word of this thread for the past few pages, so apologies if I missed the part about not being able to give meds by mouth to the kiddos. I can tell you though that nothing in the EMT training would help with this.

My kiddo got croup a couple months ago. My well meaning doc prescribed solu-medrol (a steroid) in oral liquid form and we were given a syringe. My kiddo puked up every single dose. After speaking with a co-worker MD of mine, it turns out that this particular steroid (commonly prescribed) is in a formulation that is more likely to induce puking than ipecac. Bad situation all around, and at this point I was a PA with plenty of training and experience. I still couldn't get the meds down my kid, but that had more to do with the fact that this preparation really shouldn't exist because nobody can actually administer it.

My point about the EMT part was just to point out (without judgement) that this training (which is focused on bad things) could have paradoxically counted against him. I don't fault him at all for pushing the button when he did, knowing his situation and his level of knowledge.

MedSailor
 
#558 · (Edited)
On the lawsuit I have nothing to add. Let's see what happens.

On cruising with kids I agree with you Smack that carrying appropriate medication and being more than casually familiar with it and how to administer all onboard medication is a very good idea. I think what the actual situation was on RH is hard to know.
 
#560 ·
I'll say it again, very little kids can get very sick very fast. Going offshore with a toddler was mistake number one. I have no problem with taking a toddler day sailing or coastal cruising. But taking a very small child offshore is the equivalent of playing Russian Roulette, particularly if the child has just recovered from a serious infection. If they would have waited until the younger child was a few years older before trying an ocean crossing (thus giving everyone involved some more sailing experience, and allowing time to make sure that the boat was in seaworthy condition), and made damned sure that everyone was healthy before leaving, the chances are that 95% of the "drama" of this story would never have happened.

Having little kids doesn't mean putting ones life "on hold", it just means doing different things with ones life for a few years.
 
#562 ·
I'll say it again, very little kids can get very sick very fast. Going offshore with a toddler was mistake number one.......
You and I would have made the same decision not to take our young children on this passage. However, in the extreme, you have to be critical of every parent that decides to even have a child across half the planet that has nearly zero access to medical care. Judging someone, just because they come from a first world country doesn't seem entirely fair. In the end, it's the parent's decision and only their decision to make. Up to a point. That point is highly subjective.
 
#561 · (Edited)
back to iridium and how they have gone the way of cell phone providers another latitude update here:

Latitude 38 - 'Lectronic Latitude

take away rebel heart, the whole debacle, the kids, the bad condition of the boat, inexperience or false experience, whatever

take it all out of the situation and look at these 3 points being made

THIS

is unacceptable for an emergency phone provider...it HAS happened to others and its inexcuseable

I think we need to separate issues here...they are unrelated in essence but in RH case they did become a factor...

Im avoiding any comment whatsoever about the lawsuit, how fit or not they were as captains and crew , parenting etc...

the last point made by richard is the one that most impacts me(a satellite phone SHOULD be able to be used NO MATTEER WHAT THE CHARGES in an emergency, it can be dealt with AFTER but in order to save lives there has to be NO QUESTION WHATSOEVER that it will work.

in my limited experience using these phones over 10 years back and most recently about 6 years ago this was the case.

what has happened these last few years, months days?
 
#565 ·
I agree, the lawsuit has no merit, unless there was an explicit guarantee I'm unaware of. However, losing the sat phone was why they lost their boat, the sat company just doesn't accrue liability for it.
Well, I'm not so sure that's a foregone conclusion.

These folks pointed the finger all over the place (except at themselves) giving inconsistent and illogical reasons for abandoning RH. The sick kid came in and out of the picture for awhile there.

Moreover, if a 1 year old really was that sick in the middle of the ocean, wouldn't a doctor recommend abandoning ship and seeking medical treatment anyway? I mean, it's not like a doctor can reach through the sat phone and diagnose and render treatment.

Lastly, I've said it before and I'll say it again. My read on the whole situation was that it was driven by Charlotte wanting Off The F'in Boat. The sick kid, the broken sat phone, the leaky boat, was all pretext for the ultimate desire. Believe me, if I was defending the sat phone company, this would be a large part of the defense, and there has been plenty of evidence to support the theory.
 
#566 ·
Charlie Doane has dug into this a bit more, his post is well worth reading... Clarifies some issues, but muddies the waters in some others...

REBEL HEART: Lawsuit Against Sat-Phone Provider | Sailfeed

For those who have been ragging on Iridium:

Attorney Gilleon: We have no evidence that Iridium was at fault in any way and furthermore would like to thank Iridium for being as forthcoming as possible in helping us to understand what happened to Eric's account as it was handled by Whenever LLC.
One of the more interesting conclusions I draw from reading Charlie between the lines, is that for Eric to have continued the voyage himself without the use of a satphone or EPIRB might have presented a risk sufficient to warrant abandoning REBEL HEART... I'd love to hear what someone like Robin Knox-Johnston, or Webb Chiles - or anyone else who ever sailed across an ocean without an EPIRB or sat phone - would have to say about that... :)

Anyway, it's nice to know that Charlie is still praying that I'll never have to abandon a boat offshore... :)
 
#567 ·
Children have a habit of getting sick in all kinds of places: hotels, boats, in-laws house, in-laws's boat, the mall, etc.

This family sounds like they were prepared for all other contingencies. We have met other live-aboard families with happy, well-adjusted, healthy kids. I am sure those kids all got a cold, stomach viruses, chicken pox, etc, at one time or another.

Take the child away? Parents irresponsible? Really???

The parents should get the child well and get right back on the boat if it can be repaired and go on with their plan. Their children's lives will be that much richer.
 
#568 ·
Children have a habit of getting sick in all kinds of places: hotels, boats, in-laws house, in-laws's boat, the mall, etc.

This family sounds like they were prepared for all other contingencies.
I'm sorry - but being able to take care of your kid when he/she is sick is pretty important.

In light of everything I've seen in my research, I have lost complete respect for these people.

They should have stayed home and taken care of their kids. Period.
 
#574 ·
EMTs (Basic) can administer a few drugs, depending upon the rules of their jurisdiction and under medical direction. I recall practicing injections was one of the things my son did when he trained to be an EMT. What's allowed to be administered is limited, with more options typically with higher levels of training (intermediate, paramedic). For an example, here in NM EMT-basics can administer the Narcan antidote to drug users suffering a heroin/opiate overdose, and I believe New York has a pilot program now to allow their EMT-Basics to do the same. Scope of practice will vary with an EMT's locale and other circumstances.
 
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