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I think I've been snookered

13K views 79 replies 35 participants last post by  HoffaLives 
#1 ·
'Cause I bought the myth of simple life aboard. I'm seriously thinking of selling my beloved CS 36T, which I've owned a paltry three months.
So here's the sob story. I'm a writer, and the more junk/trouble/money problems in my life, the less art/love/time for what's really important. So after fulfilling my biological imperative, we pushed the kids out, sold the whopper of a headache house, and paid off four-fifths of debts. Compared to the rest of 99% of our compatriots we are well off, living downtown with a lovely waterfront view with minimal expenses.

I thought I had found my dream.

And then that damn rope slipped off the bow. Nothing stupid like running onto rocks or blowing up the engine or anything like that, just a poorly flaked length of rope slithering off unnoticed in a chop.

After all the dust clears, even with insurance, it looks like we could have as much as 4 grand worth of stuff we will have to pay for, as we found previous crummy repairs that need to be set right. The insured portion could be in the range of 10 grand.

Just a f***** rope.

We have to come up with the ten grand, and then submit receipts to the insurance company. Could take a few weeks to a month to see a cheque.

So at this point we have to provide 15 thousand dollars to take care of a prop wrap. If I had run her aground (like the other CS 36T in the yard) what would I have to come up with then? $40,000.00? $50,000.00?

And I haven't even begun on the part of where the hell do you live while your home is pulled apart for 6 weeks?.

I'm not sure about those who follow this forum, but I'm not a retired boomer with a quarter million in his bank account to draw on when hell breaks loose. We are not impoverished by any means, and I've had a few previous boats and know they cost money, but this is insane. I left the heritage house behind because I was sick of the bills, and the sheer cost of living in the suburbs. But I've never been handed a bill for 15 grand before, not even anywhere close.

So where's the simple life in that?

I love sailing and I'll always own some kind of sailboat, but now I'm thinking do I even want to take this boat out again (when it's finally fixed) if an easy afternoon sail can set you back 15 grand or possibly much more? I don't know how people do it. No offense intended, but are most of us well-off folks pretending to be hippies or what?

I'm seriously thinking of selling this and buying and converting an old wooden troller or tug, and just leaving it tied up 99% of the time. Calming my sailing demons with a dinghy or small sloop.

Thoreau had it right when he said that most men lead lives of quiet desperation, and go to their graves with their song still in them. I'll be damned if that's gonna be me. I know what I want, and I'm afraid I haven't found it.

Maybe I'm not looking at it right (a definite possibility), but if so, I would sure like someone to show me how I've got it wrong.
 
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#2 ·
Sorry to hear about your troubles.:confused: But don't throw in the towel yet.....

I won't rub salt about boats being expensive, you know that and make it clear that you knew that before you made the leap.

I don't have any great wisdom to add; just wanted to send you a "chin-up"

Fred
 
#5 ·
Hoff...you gotta work out what feels best for yourself, but the "cheap" liveaboard life costs about double what you think it will because stuff happens.
BTW...you have a whack insurance co. or adjuster. The normal procedure is to get an estimate in writing and the insurance company approves and pays the yard directly in scheduled payments...generally 1/3 to start...etc.
There is no reason for you to be out of pocket anything but your deductible and whatever work is not covered by your policy.

Now get back to writin' and quitcher whinin'!! You need to make some bread!!(g)
 
#7 ·
Hoffa,

I feel your pain and all I can say is if you are in the Long Island Sound area you are more than welcome to sail with me.

My philosophy is to have little and end with a zero balance... come in with nothing and go out with nothing. Fortunately, I have no children to worry about... but not pleasure from them either.

I grew up in the burbs and knew I would not want to live there and deal with owning and maintaining... be a slave to property. Instead I have my little boat which if it survives me can be taken over by another sailor.

It's hard not to consume and acquire. Our society produces some fine stuff to own. But even my books I read and give away if they have no use. Let someone else use them.

I also have perfectly good stuff which has no value and I hate to put it in a dumpster. Things like a Loran. A friend who was a pilot died a few years back and before he did he gave me all sorts of pilot gear... which I have no use for. I just found a young man who wants to become a pilot so I gave him the lot. He was thrilled.

We are a wasteful lot and only in the last few years has this message even been heard. I hope you find the peace you deserve in your sunset.

Thankfully my boat is paid for and in good shape, and insured, but all it takes is one screw up and ... there but for the grace of god go I.

Fair winds

jef
sv shiva
 
#19 ·
well said

I have to agree with you Jeff, after spending the morning argueing with the wife over all the accumulated stuff thats upstairs,downstairs,in the garage and upstairs in the garage and out in the yard we loaded up a 6x12 Uhaul trailer and headed off to waste management by the # we spent $100 dollars to throw away some pretty good stuff and we have not even put a dent in it !
I am at the age where I know the inevitable is comeing and I dont want someone else having to clean up my mess when I die,been there done that dont want to put someone else threw it.
So I plan on getting it down to a managable slight some and living a simpler life sooner or later...most likly later but Im heading that way.

I need to start "living the dream"

CW

Hoffa,

I feel your pain and all I can say is if you are in the Long Island Sound area you are more than welcome to sail with me.

My philosophy is to have little and end with a zero balance... come in with nothing and go out with nothing. Fortunately, I have no children to worry about... but not pleasure from them either.

I grew up in the burbs and knew I would not want to live there and deal with owning and maintaining... be a slave to property. Instead I have my little boat which if it survives me can be taken over by another sailor.

It's hard not to consume and acquire. Our society produces some fine stuff to own. But even my books I read and give away if they have no use. Let someone else use them.

I also have perfectly good stuff which has no value and I hate to put it in a dumpster. Things like a Loran. A friend who was a pilot died a few years back and before he did he gave me all sorts of pilot gear... which I have no use for. I just found a young man who wants to become a pilot so I gave him the lot. He was thrilled.

We are a wasteful lot and only in the last few years has this message even been heard. I hope you find the peace you deserve in your sunset.

Thankfully my boat is paid for and in good shape, and insured, but all it takes is one screw up and ... there but for the grace of god go I.

Fair winds

jef
sv shiva
 
#8 ·
Sorry to hear that Hoffa. I go through life learning lots of things by mistake. Luckily, I saw a buddy of mine tie all the lines to the pulpits when we went out one time. I said,"oh, I get it". But I am sure I will learn something else the hard and expensive way. It happens to everyone, and for the people it doesn't happen to, well they are just too uptight to be any fun. If you remember awhile back, I learned a docking lesson to the tune of several grand.
You could be right, maybe a tug or a ferry with a dinghy is the way to go, but right now don't do anything. Just fix what you've got, you've invested too much on a good plan to just change it all after a few months. You will lose way too much money. If you fix things, then decide on a clear head that its not right, then you can still do it. Rent a room while its getting fixed, treat yourself, have fun and enjoy it, or go on vacation.
 
#9 ·
Ouch... what insurance do you have that you've got a $4,000 deductible on a boat that is probably worth $80,000 on the outside. Most yatch policies I know of have a 1% or 1.5% deductible, not 5%. Also, is yours a liveaboard specific policy. Some of the liveaboards I know have a policy that pays for temporary housing if they're forced off the boat due to making covered repairs.
 
#10 ·
You've gotten lots of good and sound counsel regarding boats and insurance from the others. I'll take another course.

Don't do anything quickly or rashly. Everything seems worst sooner and better later. Doing nothing costs nothing. After a bit of time emotions will settle and cognitive thought will take over.

Don't throw away the dream because of a bad episode. You have taken a bold move in trying to live the dream. Stay the course and give the dream a chance to blossom.
 
#11 ·
Couple of things. I expected a "suck it up" reply, and to the heartless bastard who offered it, here's hoping you catch your wife in bed with a jockey named Osama.

For the dude who likes my writing style, I wish he would tell those illiterate baboons in New York.

As to the insurance, up here in igloo land we pay and the insurance co pays. SOP. The deductable is 1% - 1 grand. The rest is fixing old, screwy repairs done in the past by a yard specializing in yacht repairs and coffins. Run by a one-eyed Russian on the lam from the Stalingrad mob.

The damage was a prop wrap that bent the shaft, and made the engine jump so that the shaft log snapped. 10 big ones, and I'm not talking aroused dwarves and a foxy stripper named Snow White either. Wait, wasn't that seven dwarves? Sneezy, Happy, Horny...ahhh WTF.

I suppose it wouldn't be so bad except for the sprung raw water pump when we first put her in the water. Said rebuilt pump rebuilt three more times. And the windlass and alternator that blew on her maiden voyage. Both depthsounders going, the leaking propane system that suddenly needed replacing, the new Dickenson furnace that broke down, the new tankwatch system, ALL the engine gauges, fuel tank sender and gauge, the mainsail repair, etc, etc etc.

Like I said we owned this boat only a couple of months, and none of this was on the survey. I expected $$$ for upgrades as we went along, not $$$$$$$ from bad luck.

Somebody said write for money. Hah. I'd sell my ass but you can't afford me.

I'm starting to suspect that my wife is buggering things up while I'm asleep, and a pox on those of you with dirty minds.
 
#12 ·
I don't think anyone is really telling you to suck it up. Where all on your side here, wish you the best. I can't speak for anyone else, but I replied to say don't give up your dream, even if you will need to adjust it a little.
 
#13 · (Edited)
Sorry to hear about it HoffaLives.

I didn't see where someone told you to suck it up, I even went back and reread everyone's post and didn't see it ? Anyway, I don't think anyone is being like that, accidents happen, could happen to any one of us.

As for the lifestyle, no helpful words there. All I can say for myself is that I've tried to keep the boat costs down so that my boat never becomes something too precious to use. Sure, I like looking at all the spit and polish on other people's boats, but that's just not for me. If I had a really nice boat all i would do is sit around worrying about it all the time.

It's so easy to spend money on boats. I mean I went into it thinking it would basically be a hull with sails on it, and a rudder, and I was very serious about keeping costs down and only buying necessities. But I've been seduced into solar panels and some of the rest too. It's easy to spend that few hundred here, few hundred there, and before you know it she's precious.

Hope it all works out for you soon.
 
#14 ·
Hoffa, I think you're being tested, fight though it and you will be rewarded, hell if you look hard enough you may see the rewards staring you in the face right now, you're just too pissed off to see them ( and I can understand why ), you just need to step back, take a deep breath, and let Neptune know you've got the stones and he ain't going to beat you before you get started, he will reward you in the end.
 
#16 ·
Hey Hoffa, I've been re-reading this thread and sure hope that my post wasn't mis-read as the "suck-it-up" thread. I can see where it might be.:confused:

If so, I apologize, not what I intended at all! :rolleyes:

If anything, I commiserate, having been in a similar situation with a boat for which my livleyhood (sp?) depended upon.

I agree with just about everybody else, don't do anything rash. Go out and put on a good bender, cry the hurt and disappointment out of your system; then when the fog lifts sit back and reassess.

Maybe your first reaction is right. Maybe the dream really isn't for you; but it would be a shame to come to that conclusion in reaction.

Maybe this IS a test? How is the other half reacting?

And by the way, your writing style IS a hoot. Maybe THAT is the good thing to come out of all of this. The whole "suffering artist" deal?

Best of luck with whatever you decide, in any case.

Fred
 
#17 ·
If this is just a rant, rant away.

However, if this is really this big of a set back, maybe you do need to reevaluate. Boats are certainly expensive.

That said, the most expensive year is often the first one. I too bought a boat this year and I had more in it than the purchase price in less than 4 months. With luck, I won't have to put so much into it in subsequent years.

Like I said we owned this boat only a couple of months, and none of this was on the survey. I expected $$$ for upgrades as we went along, not $$$$$$$ from bad luck.
The way I see it, you can look at this two ways. First, expect bad luck (and good luck, too). Alternatively, if it aint broke, don't use it.

Personally, I would stick it out a lot longer than three months. You're going to have a learning curve, but there are some fine rewards to owning a nice boat.
 
#18 ·
I don't know what you normally write about, but I'm very interested in THIS story, and I am wanting more detail as to what happened, what it will take to fix it, where will you live while you boat is fixed, this looks like a 10 part article that SAIL or Cruising World would be interested in. I know I would be thinking a year's subscription to make sure I didn't miss an installment. I'm truly sorry about what happened to you and your home, I hope everything works out and I would be interested to read how it works out. Until today, I thought the only negative to running over a line was having to go under the boat and get it loose....I'm in shock.
 
#21 ·
Hi,

FNG here but all I can add is..

As a former insurance adjuster a couple of things..

In the insurance gig EVERYTHING (and I mean that) is negotiable and the squeaky wheel gets the grease which is to say if you yell loud enough (be nice) you will be heard. I would spend the extra $$$ to have a public adjuster look at your problem, a marine expert even better. Insurance is to make you whole again, what is insured is stupidity and just plain ole dumb luck. As far as where to live while your boat is on the hard, check your policy for anything that looks like "Loss of use" and you could be camping at the 'Casa de Best Western'. Hope this helps and I LOVE this place!

All the above supposes that you are in the Good 'ole USA btw...

Tim
 
#22 ·
I feel so much better now. The wife gave me my shot and everything is turned around. I don't know what's in it, but it sure does the trick.

And the degree of support I've found here doesn't hurt, either. And no, I wasn't offended at all, that's just my Walter Mitty complex showing through. My real name is Norton and I'm a short pale Jewish chap that lives with his mom. All bluster if you get me.

One thing I notice in these posts is folks really aren't coming clean about where they are at; Are most liveaboards really well-heeled suburbanites slumming? If so guys like me would really like to know. I chose the lifestyle for many reasons, not least of which is I want to live free and thet means inexpensively; as someone observed, the more dough involved in anything, the less freedom accompanies it UNLESS YOU GOTS LOTS OF DOUGH.

Getting back to the original intent of this thread, I'm still thinking that as an alternative, inexpensive way of sheltering yourself, owning a well put together sailboat is probably not the best way to go. There are many, many boats that are worth far, far less, and yet would actually give you more when tied to a dock. One of my neighbors has a wonderful old fishboat hull that he built a small house on. It looks sweet, comfortable, and homey. He needs to tow it when he moves, but he never moves (which is interesting given that the harbour is a no discharge area).

And as for sailboats for cruising, there are some wonderfully inexpensive, well-built small boats that "can take you anywhere," boats that you might not even bother insuring. I wouldn't want to liveaboard one though.

Where th $$$ seems to come in is when you want a nice boat that functions well as a liveaboard and that you could also sail to Hawaii.

Basically, the more you ask from your boat, the more responsibility it entails., the more $$$ required.

I have a wonderful boat, but sometimes I look wistfully at the deranged hermit living aboard the disintegrating, listing scow that hasn't moved since WWII. You can bet he doesn't worry about coming up with 15 grand for the insurance company. No, he spends his days worrying about aliens from space, which as it should be.

I think I would be happy floating in an upside down bus, but then the wife comes into the mix; for her I would move ashore in a heartbeat.

Hell, I could live in a garbage can, popping up now and then to yell at the neighbors.

I'm thinking there might be a book in ghis, something I haven't read in anything about living afloat - what your money gets you. From a floating reef to a megayacht, what lifestyle you can expect with such and such $$$ and income. If I had that from the start I wouldn't be scratching my head right now.
 
#24 ·
One thing I notice in these posts is folks really aren't coming clean about where they are at; Are most liveaboards really well-heeled suburbanites slumming? If so guys like me would really like to know. I chose the lifestyle for many reasons, not least of which is I want to live free and thet means inexpensively; as someone observed, the more dough involved in anything, the less freedom accompanies it UNLESS YOU GOTS LOTS OF DOUGH.
I am a self-employed urbanite who paid off his house in eight years by never taking a vacation, using the same 1992 TV with rabbit ears and by not driving a car. I then used the house for a fresh $200,000 mortgage to pay for a 40 foot cruiser plus enough money to reno the house for two pairs of tenants, who will pay down the mortgage (and pay for our diesel) while we cruise. I'll work while I'm gone for a five-year (hopefully) circ; I'll sell the boat when I return (in Europe, because they live proven steel boats), and I'll never retire because I don't have a pension and the demographics will look pretty ugly by 2026, anyway....so I'm taking my retirement in my late 40s with my wife and kid while I can.

It's doable if you can exercise discipline and stick to your goals. Job 1 is simply not spending money on crap: we did five years of double mortgage payments while having a single pair of tenants in order to be in a position to use an appreciating shack in an up market to capture the increase. If the boat itself is paid for, that's half the battle, because boat loans are crazy.
 
#23 ·
Hoffa,
I'm a more than a little confused by your story... but let me add a couple of things based on personal experience. I just bought a boat, and it's a ten-minute bicycle ride away. The reason I bring this little fact up is because I have it on good evidence that this helps keep catastrophic damage to a minimum. I can and do check on her often. Don't know where you live relative to your boat, but there you go...

One more point about "sucking it up." You'll have to this time, but I'm convinced that this sailing/cruising thing can be done very very inexpensively. You aren't going to be nearly as comfortable while doing it, but being physically uncomfortable and at ease in your head -- simultaneously -- is what it's all about.
 
#25 ·
I agree with Mr. Hog. As stated above, I have no car; however, I do have a bike and various trailers able to carry all manner of boat gear such as sailbags, fenders, cradle pads, even whisker poles if lashed right and tipped with a red rag...<G> So when I *don't* have the trailer on, it's actually a pleasure to cycle 15 minutes or so down to the club to double-check chafe gear, redeploy fenders and make sure I haven't left something on deck that could leave in a blow. I do this because I'm at a finger end and because I nearly chafed through a bowline once: if the boat had gone, it would have piled into a line of another club's boats on the beam after a 100 metre sprint. So now I check. Proximity to my house is the main reason I picked the club.

The second point is also valid. After initial expenses to achieve a pleasant and safe life on the hook is established, you can stash a 200-DVD library of movie classics, carry around 100 sailing books and 100 tradeable paperbacks, learn to become a better cook, learn marlinespike seamanship and make nautical crafts, sew sails or fish from the taff rail. You can row to and from other people's boats and get free liquor for oil changes or simple things that older and perhaps arthritic sailors can't manage easily anymore. You can go exploring out of the tourist zones. Very little of this sort of life is expensive, and it certainly needn't be monotonous.
 
#26 ·
Hoffa, I think I'm a well done, slightly on the burnt side suburbanite.

The only thing we kept from our 30 yr accumalation fest was 3 boxes of clothes, my wifes XK8, my Titan truck and my job that I've had for the last 27 yrs.

This lifestyle is something we have dreamed about off and on for our entire married life, ( even longer for me ) but never thought life would take us on the detours nor test us the way it has, I honestly think we have past another level in the game and this is what we have unlocked, I'm sure the next level will be every bit as mysterious with all the setbacks and trials as the previous ones, but I do look forward to whatever we unlock next.

Who knows, maybe it's will be a lower Lattitude or maybe it will be game over...............we'll never know till we get there
 
#27 ·
A lot to learn

Sounds like you've already made up your mind, and I hate to say this, but maybe you don't have what it takes to be a cruiser, and what you dont realize is you dont have to have money.
The first thing you have to learn is that if you dont have a big bank roll, you'll have to do most of the work yourself.
I was talking to the wife this morning, the bottom paint around the waterline is starting to show blue. (blue was a guide coat of bottom paint I applied the last time I did a bottom job- about four years ago)over the blue, I applied red--when the blue shows through, put more red on.
Anyway, I'll be taking the boat up the slough to a sandy beach I spotted a while back. We'll ease her into the sand bank as the tide starts going out. we've only got about 3 feet of tide so I figure a foot or so should do it.. as she lays over and the waterline comes out of the water, we paint it... pretty simple, and we've just saved the money for a haul-out. and my boat, its a FIRST 42 from Beneteau.
Your boat as ours and many outhers, is in constant need of repair, of some kind.. either varnish, sanding, repairing or just cleaning up. Hoses break, pumps go bad, Dock lines wear out, and crap get caught in the prop.. Its all part of the boating life..
I've got a maxie prop in my boat, and while cruising in the north-west, I hooked a Crab Pot and wound the line around the prop. So I tossed out the anchor, got the swim fins and mask out and a good sharp knife and put up with the cold water for a few minutes.. after a hot shower, I was good as new, with another story to tell.
As I said, some people dont have what it takes, and some do, The mantaince and repair are all part of the cruising lifestyle, And I think its the pride knowing that keeping your boat in top condition while cruising is a great part of the satisfaction.
And I'll close with this last remark.. we all call it cruising when in reality it should be call " Repairing your boat in Exotic Ports"
 
#28 ·
I suspect that the implied arrogance of "don't have what it takes" is unintentional, and to deprive others of their sadistic joy at the resulting blood fest, I'll spit out that bait and let it rot on the bottom like it deserves.

Having said that, I know all about do-it yerself maintenance, and have spent untold dozens of hours on rigging, plumbing, electrical, heating, propane system and engine. When the stern tube snapped I wrapped that sucker with two layers of mat and three cloth, and it took us as far as we needed to. But the hull is also cracked, and while I could patch it myself, below waterline fiberglass repairs of structural components is not something I want to bugger with. I am thinking of taking some courses, but there is a four year apprenticeship in composite repair for a reason.
Besides, there are too many sins out there hidden in bottom paint for the next guy to do properly and I don't want to be part of it.

Maintenance items that you list are in fact quite unremarkable and most dudes do it themselves. But replacing a section of hull and stern tube? If a guy does that kind of work and isn't a journeyman glasser, unless you never leave the dock, I think you are taking too great a risk with people's lives.

If it's just your life that's your call as long as they have a good bouy to mark where you went down so I don't tangle with your mast at low tide.

I've always done all my own work on everything from houses to cars to boats and I guess I'm passed the point of "satisfaction" in that. I know I can do it, big deal; it's just another job to do. And I know when the specialised knowledge required isn't worth my effort to learn as well. That's why I have insurance.

The whole point to this thread however (for me) was about separating fact from fiction about the lifestyle of the cruiser. And nobody told me about the 15 grand I would have to cough up if a caught a rope on a prop.
 
#29 ·
The whole point to this thread however (for me) was about separating fact from fiction about the lifestyle of the cruiser. And nobody told me about the 15 grand I would have to cough up if a caught a rope on a prop.
How could you or anyboby else know that you would one day run over a dock line, let alone know it would be a $15,000 ticket

That would be like Mac & Muffy Graham, knowing in 1964 that their life long sailing dream would end in their murder on a desert island in the South Pacific in 1974.

The fact is, you could have just as easy had $15,000.00 in unexpected damages done to your house that was not covered by your homeowners policy
 
#31 ·
Hoff,

In an attempt to make you feel slightly less down.......

We wanted to make a smallish modification to our rig. Rigger looked and promptly condemned the entire standing rigging due to corrosion in the swages apparently caused by the previous rigger using 304 swages with 316 wire. Second and third opinions all agreed with his assessment. $6.000 thank you very much which of course is not covered by any insurance unless the damn thing had actually collapsed while under sail.

Rigging work complete we went to cast off from riggers dock to go home and noticed oil coming out of the exhaust pipe. Still waiting for final confirmation of problem but it appears to be gearbox related. $?.??? . Watch this space.

Anchor windlass has been playing up. Thought it must just need a good service so removed from boat. Did not come out easily and once dismantled it has become obvious that the gearbox gaskets has gone and water had got into the gearbox. Choice of new windlass $2.500 or new gearbox $500 and a couple of days work on my part. Going for the cheap option.

So don't feel too bad cos none of that is covered by insurance.

What was that about cold showers and tearing up $100 bills ?

Then of course she's due for a haulout and antifouling and the topsides need re painting and with the new backstay arrangement and lazy jacks we are are going to be up for new bimini cover and sailcover.

Cheers mate.
 
#79 ·
It's always the thing we don't think about...

What was that about cold showers and tearing up $100 bills ?
That was me... Boating definitions...
My sympathies Hoffa... Seriously, that is some hard times to face with.

You can use my 22 footer any time, if you wish...

And please do check on that insurance policy for terms. I bet you can find something hiding somewhere... Ask a lawyer or insurance occupied friend to go through the whole insurance policy.
 
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