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Is the Newport 27' a suitable liveaboard for a small family?

15K views 76 replies 33 participants last post by  clip68 
#1 · (Edited)
Hello,
First post!
My wife and I met sailing square rigged tallships (lady washington/hawaiian chieftan) and fell in love with the sea, she turned me on to the book "Sailing the Farm" and we have since dreamed of sea-steading. We now have one one year old son :D
I recently found a Newport 27' in my price range that looks great - I plan on doing some work on it (modifying living spaces, installing solar panels, aftcabin greenhouse etc), so I don't see us using it as a liveaboard until my son is at least four...
It looks really roomy on the inside (sleeps five, in bunks presumably), but...it's only 27'. That being said, I'm about to start school and my wife works so It's not like we'll all be on her all day...until we head out to sea!
Do you think this would be suitable for me my wife and four year old son? My wife and I are good at confined spaces; after working on the boats for 4 months we moved into a dodge caravan for 8 months!
Any information's appreciated! sorry to give too much from my end ;)

Preemptively thanking y'all for your time!
 
#2 · (Edited)
Are you looking for an endorsement of your parenting? Meet with a child psychologist or family counselor to discuss your plans.

Worried about violating the law? Consult with a family law lawyer in your jurisdiction, or better yet, call the state department of social services for your city or county for their view and/or input.

Many would think that is o.k., particularly on a forum like this - imaginary-sailing-make-believe-happy land; many would disapprove for various valid reasons, particularly given the small size of the boat for a family.

The controlling standard in custody cases in Virginia is the best interests of the child. That is a useful standard for other purposes, as well.

I believe, you, as a good parent, should put your child's best interests above your own desires.

So, do you believe it is in your child's best interests for you to live aboard a Newport 27?

Why don't you state the pros and cons here so we can better evaluate your motives, interests, values and priorities?

...or do you really just want approval and not any opinions contrary to your own?
 
#67 · (Edited)
Siiigggghhhhh. James, James, James...okay, I'll take the time to answer in more detail.

As always, you're entitled to your opinion, but let me lay out why I think you are seriously myopic and hopelessly holier-than-thou on this topic. Let's look at some of your statements that are pretty full of judgmental condescension and just plain silly.

Are you looking for an endorsement of your parenting? Meet with a child psychologist or family counselor to discuss your plans.

Worried about violating the law? Consult with a family law lawyer in your jurisdiction, or better yet, call the state department of social services for your city or county for their view and/or input.

Many would think that is o.k., particularly on a forum like this - imaginary-sailing-make-believe-happy land; many would disapprove for various valid reasons, particularly given the small size of the boat for a family.
Are you yourself looking for endorsement of your own parenting and your own choices in life, James? Well, I can pretty much guarantee that "many would think that is o.k., ; many would disapprove for various valid reasons". Yours has never been proven to be the "best" or "only" way to raise healthy, happy, productive children. That too, I can guarantee. There is a whole world of evidence out there on which to draw that conclusion...some of it below.

I believe, you, as a good parent, should put your child's best interests above your own desires.
That's fine. Others, like me, believe that good parenting also means having and enjoying shared desires, interests, and activities. Being together. Enjoying one another. It works pretty well from what I've experienced and seen.

Why don't you state the pros and cons here so we can better evaluate your motives, interests, values and priorities?

...or do you really just want approval and not any opinions contrary to your own?
This is just ridiculous. Does anyone really owe you ("us") this on a forum? Please.

Exactly, and parental love means sacrifice. You give up being Peter Pan pursuing the next adventure, and start being the adult who sacrifices to provide his or her child with every opportunity possible.
Every opportunity possible...except living together on a boat? Seriously?

The OP needs to grow up, start acting like a parent, and stop looking for the next adventure.

The saddest thing is the parent who justifies the pursuit of his own desires as somehow being best for the child.
Do you realize you still have no idea what the OP's real motivations are? Is that stopping you from judging him?

"When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things."

1 Corinthians 13:11
Matthew 7:1-3.
1 John 4:7-10.

I find it comical that some of you judge the appropriateness of a child's environment by the child's level of happiness.

The child might be happiest if the child were allowed to eat chocolate cake and ice cream all the time, live in a tree fort, and not have to go to school.
Can you point to anyone who is advocating this - or are you just being comically hyperbolic?

What I referred to is "the best interests of the child" as the appropriate standard. Children do no know what is best for them. Their parents or adults in charge of them should be doing what is best for the children, not what makes them happiest, and certainly not what makes the parents happiest. Contentment is the result of a life well-lived, not an appropriate goal.

Children often like childish choices by the parent. Being a parent is difficult. The parent who refuses to grow up and aims to make the child happy ends up with an irresponsible, spoiled brat, who may later follow the same path, which might include being unable to earn a decent living and having to live aboard a small boat at the expense of the development of his or her children.

A parent's job is to try to give his or her child every opportunity to reach his or her potential and become a healthy, loving, productive member of society. That would include allowing the child to reach his or her full emotional, psychological, physical and intellectual potential. This gives the child the full range of choices when he or she becomes an adult.

Living aboard a boat limits the possible opportunities for the child. If nothing else, it certainly limits the physical potential. It is really that simple.
I find it comical that you really think "it is really that simple". There are many, many examples of children being happily and successfully raised on boats. Quick ones that come to mind are our very own Cruisingdad and his wife and boys, and the Bumfuzzles, and Liz Copeland. Oh, and then there's BJPorter (here and over on SA). They've been on the boat a long time - and their teenage son just apprenticed with Bob Perry. No atrophied limbs or broken minds, just really bright productive kids. Now how the hell did that happen?

These families alone blow your thesis apart. And this is just a very small sampling. The boat has virtually nothing to do with it. It is really that simple.

What is not addressed in this thread is whether this is really a choice, or whether they must live aboard a boat because they cannot afford a home in a nice, safe community somewhere...
Again, what business is that of yours or ours? The OP is asking about what it's like living on a smaller boat. That's it. He's not asking for your definition of what exactly a "nice, safe community" means, or financial planning advice from you, or your critique/approval of the live aboard lifestyle.

...or, do what most of us do, own a house and a boat! What an amazing concept! Then you can enjoy all the comforts of home, and spend time on the boat when you want to. Your child can enjoy the magical experience of being on a boat, while he or she resides in the best possible environment on land.
Good for you. Not everyone has the ability or desire to own both. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Right now, my four year old is enrolled in lessons for 4 sports: gymnastics, soccer, swimming and Tae Kwon Do. My wife takes him to the library and the playground almost every day.

In the evening or weekends, he and I can easily walk into our fenced backyard and play frisbee with our dog, or throw a baseball around. He can also ride his bike in the street anytime he wants, with our supervision, and play with the neighborhood kids. We live in the best elementary school district in the area.

Your child will never be able to enjoy those advantages living full time aboard a boat. It is simply too difficult. Living in a single-family detached home with a yard in a safe suburban neighborhood is the best and easiest way to give your child a decent upbringing. Then go boating when you feel like it.
This is just so ridiculous I don't even know where to start. What do you think living aboard a boat means? Locking the hatch and never venturing outside? You are seriously doing this whole sailing thing wrong.

Why can't kids who live on a boat be in 4 sports if they want to? Are you really that misguided?

And, BTW, why don't you post a picture of your "safe, fenced backyard" so "we can better evaluate if it's adequate for the well-being of your children".

See, I can absolutely guarantee you that the several play areas in our marina are WAY bigger and better than your backyard. Why, we were playing frisbee just last weekend in our lush, palm-tree-lined "yard" and having a blast. And we also have two playgrounds, two tennis courts, lots of verandas with grills where we played the ukulele and sang together, and two pools (that we use a lot). It's really an incredibly nice place. And safe.



That's why this particular statement is beyond ridiculous:

Almost any apartment complex would be better than a boat in a marina. Remember, you can own a boat in addition to your regular dwelling. The sad truth is some marinas have become the modern equivalent of a trailer park, with a bunch of rent beaters/societal drop outs walking around barefooted and shirtless, beer can in hand. Sorry, that is not the best environment to produce a child with the maximum potential to live his or her life as he or she chooses as an adult.
Psst - some of "those people" you shield your children from also live in apartments. Why, I bet even some people on your own block probably drink too much beer without shoes on...and worse.

You are definitely a piece of work, James.

There is a range of views on parental responsibilities, from the very low expectations of keeping your child alive until age 18, to the high expectations of grooming your child to be successful in life.

The parents in the circles I run in are doing everything they can for their children, including sacrificing their personal wants.
I have no doubt that's what everyone in your particular circle is doing. But I also have a strong hunch career (the parents' choice) is taking up a huge amount of the invaluable time that could otherwise being going to the kids. There are many ways to define "sacrifice", James. You ever heard the song "Cats in the Cradle"?

People who choose to live on a boat with their children in a marina because they cannot afford both a decent home in a good neighborhood and the boat they want are making a terrible decision with misplaced priorities.
Again your apparent self-righteousness and arrogance are truly impressive. I must say.

Some do not put sailing, or any other activity, in it proper perspective. In the grand scheme of things, sailing or owning a boat is not very important, particularly when you have children.

It is merely a pastime, a hobby, a sport, a leisure-time activity. Some of you have elevated it to a position totally out of proportion to the important things in life (like someone who has 10,000 posts and spends all his time on this forum?) I really don't care how that affects your personal life; but, when you involve your children and you ask others advice, you might find many disagree with your choices and your lifestyle.
I've listed several examples above of people very successfully doing precisely what you say is not possible. I don't think there's much else to say...except that, in the general scheme of things, you're clearly wrong as to the pros and cons of living on a boat.

Now, size of boat, that might be another conversation. You know, like the one regarding the OP's post?
 

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#3 · (Edited)
Thanks for your reply. I definitely welcome all opinions, I'm not here for a pat on the back.
I'm definitely not seeking endorsements of my parenting and I regret inadvertently implying otherwise.
I am also not worried about violating laws. I know a couple families who live on boats and have become relatively well versed with the pertinent regulations.
To clarify, My wife's and my dream of sea-steading was for when we have a child which we now do. I definitely think it's in my child's best interest to live on a sailboat when he's around 4 years old (depending on how he develops) though I know as he grows, we will want to give him a more stable school/friend/home environment. I absolutely do not plan on living as a family on a 27' boat for decades...

What I dont know is if a 27' cruiser with an augmented cabin would be big enough - I'm hoping that someone has lived aboard a similar vessel and can relate their experiences.
My motives, interests, and values? To be able to travel to nearby places along the west coast, teach my son to sail and all the life lessons that accompany, reduce my families tax on the earth a little, learn as a family about ocean conservation and marine biology, and have a novel experience together as a family. My priorities are my and my family's well being.
Please try to refrain from such stark sarcasm, all I could really gather from your response is that you think 27' is too small...did I read that correctly?

Thanks again.
 
#55 ·
I love it! I can relate though, one asks a question anticipating sound advice and gets barraged with Smart Alec remarks from people who feel the need to belittle those who are in need of advice. :cool:

Insecurity? Pompousness? Just a bad disposition or perhaps the underwear is not fitting just right at the time? Who knows why people respond like this! :laugher

Anyhow, personally, a 27 footer would be a bit small for me, especially for a family of 3.

But do keep us updated!
 
#6 · (Edited)
TB, thanks very much for your reply!
sea-steading is like home steading but on the sea...an aft cabin greenhouse is just a greenhouse of whatever size towards the stern.
Can you suggest a more suitable vessel? I've heard good things about the catalina 30, but that's only three feet more - maybe a 35' cruiser?

Thanks again :)
 
#20 ·
More than length look at displacement and for live aboard the layout.
More modern boats will have more space inside but generally less storage. With a child for full time live aboard I think 27 foot is small. I would look at at least 32 foot. But the Catalina 30 is a big 30. The head is where a bigger boat is really better and aft cabin/quarter birth. It is a very personal thing. Some people are able to live in smaller spaces than others.

Where you will be plays a roll as well. Will you be in marinas or on the hook? If on the hook you will need more more tankage. Will you be in the south? If you will be northish you will need a source of heat. Storage is another issue. I doubt the Newport will have much.

Standing headroom would be a requirement for me, but not for everyone.

Sent from my ADR6425LVW using Tapatalk
 
#7 ·
A Cat 30 is 3 feet longer BUT it is a whole lot more boat. I had a Catalina 30 and my kids and I would spend almost every day on it, for about 3 to 5 hours. The kids enjoyed the time aboard but we always went home for the night. At the time they were 6 and 8 years old, they have always been aboard boats since they were born. They are now 23 and 25 and still like going out for a sail. We have been without a boat for around 17 years and I picked up a Coronado 25 last summer, after some refurbishing we have been sailing several times, we are now ready to weekend on it. First overnight (not at the slip) will be at Catalina Island, probably the second week of August. I believe that a minimum of 10 feet per person and with a child add 5 feet to that for live aboard. Also if your going to live aboard with a child you better be prepared invest in water safety lessons and your going to need a budget for kayaks, sailing dinghies, and snorkeling equipment etc.. and your going to be doing a lot of sailing, your boat will have to be seaworthy so scratch the greenhouse. The ocean will become your child's playground. Be Ready
 
#8 ·
socal, thanks for the reply!
I'm from LA originally, I used to looooove sailing out to Catalina; those channel islands are so gorgeous :) what a place to go skin/scuba diving too...
The water safety lessons are a given, the snorkels are lined up, I appreciate your reminder about the dinghy, but can you explain why kayaks are a necessity?
re: the greenhouse, quite a few people have sailed across the pacific with aft cabin greenhouses, there are designs for seaworthy greenhouses available. Even if you don't plan on going that route, "sailing the farm" is a very interesting read, written by a guy who sailed around the world with an aft cabin greenhouse and all sorts of innovative stuff before he paused to write ;)
With your 10+10+5 rule that puts me at 25'; I don't know why but 27' somehow seems better than 25...Do you think the Newport 27' is pushing it and I should go for the Cat 30? The reason I ask about the Newport is because a friend wants to upgrade and will sell me his nearly flawless newport for 5000usd...

thanks again!
 
#9 · (Edited)
P.S. most of our time will be spent moored (there is very affordable live-aboard moorage close to our work/school) so we'll have shore heads/showers and there's an awesome playground by the docks. The longest we'd be at sea would be 3 days or so, but rarely more than a day or two - we'd mainly go up and down the west coast, along which we have many friends to visit. I say this to refute any possible misconception that the three of us will be on the boat all day every day ;)
 
#10 ·
I'm kind of partial towards the C30 for the amount of room you get for a boat that size. There should be plenty of them along the west coast as that's where the company began. Resale should be easy.
 
#34 ·
Interesting discussion.



I agree with Donna.

It sounds like your son is not yet 4 years old, which is your threshold for moving aboard. That means time. I infer that the coastal cruise to MX you describe is even further in the future.

I suggest you let go of doing everything at once. Your first step is to explore boats. You're doing that. In parallel you can start looking into community gardening in the area you live. Most areas have public or public/private programs to use shared ground for gardens. You'll have a lot more space and a lot more flexibility in what your grow. You'll also develop relationships with other community gardeners who may look after your plot as weekend sails grow to week long ones.

With regard to the boat, the Newport 27 is going to be tight.

The Catalina 30 is substantially more spacious, and importantly laid out better. With a child you'll likely put the kid forward which means swapping the dinette to a bed and back every day.

It is my observation that some people sit down and stay put and others move around a lot. If you and your wife sit down and stay put a Catalina 30 could work. If one or both of you move around a lot you're going to be in each other's way. Your tall ship experience isn't applicable - individual space is constrained but common space is pretty expansive. I'm a sit down and stay put person; my partner moves around a lot. We are comfortable in our 40 footer because I have two places I can park myself that don't keep her from moving around.
 
#12 ·
Ferron, thanks for your reply!
Having discussed our plans with friends the Cat 30 was kinda what I had my eye on. I've never been aboard a Newport but the inside dimensions seem pretty good, but I'm getting the impression from y'all that despite slight difference in length, the Cat 30 is considerably more livable.

Thanks again!
 
#13 ·
I'd bother with the greenhouse for a few reasons:
I've been growing food since I was a kid and there's no better food than vegetables you grow with care.
I am going to school for horticulture and botany: I love growing.
The plans that I'm fond of are relatively easy and inexpensive so If it turns out to be more trouble than it's worth I can scrap it.
The length of time I'm at sea or moored is inconsequential; either way I can grow my own fresh, delicious, food. It's the same reason that, on land, I have a big garden, rabbits, a greenhouse, and an indoor garden. Grocery stores are nice but my garden's better and if I can have a garden on my boat I'm stoked.
 
#14 ·
... It's the same reason that, on land, I have a big garden, rabbits, a greenhouse, and an indoor garden. Grocery stores are nice but my garden's better and if I can have a garden on my boat I'm stoked.
OK. I get the fresh is best thing. But your house isn't moving. Your house isn't susceptible to the same always-changing conditions as a boat. I guess I'm thinking about it from a safety perspective.
 
#15 ·
In my recent search for a liveaboard boat, I have been on 2 newport 27's and 2 catalina 30's. The cat would be far more suitable for my liveaboard needs, and I'm only worried about me. My daughter will visit from time to time, but as she is still very young she does not need or desire a lot of space. She loves crawling into little cubbies and making her own little home out of it.

However, as with the 10+10+5 rule, I would start at 30 and apply it from there. I'm also not looking at a green house and the space that it would consume. Perhaps you could build it on a little dinghy of some sort and pull it along behind your boat? I'm not sure. I did consider enclosing a small fishing boat and using it for storage while cruising, so maybe that could work.

But the newport 27 would satisfy for a weekender only in my personal opinion. I could not live on it because of the severe lack of headroom and other creature features. If you have that much time between now and when you want to set sail long term, perhaps you could find an old 40 foot fixer upper and be much happier in regards to space.

And just 3 feet is not the only factor, I'm looking at a 30' Jeaneau and its not nearly as spacious as the Catalina 30 because of beam and headroom. Its very boat to boat. But please dont settle on the Newport and suffer later because its cheap. I even looked at an Irwin 32 Center Cockpit that was much roomier than even the Catalina, especially with the aft cabin.

My opinion: wait till you have a bit more budget, get a bigger boat. If you can get a loan, $35,000 will get quite a large fairly well equipped boat. Perhaps a 40' or more. It will probably need elbow grease though. If you are comparing the payment to a car it will be depressing, but compared to a mortgage or rent for a house you will be making out pretty well.
 
#16 ·
ferron, thanks for the input! Safety is of course my priority and I'm not married to the idea, but I've seen it done and would like to at least see if I can make one that meets everyone's (my, my wife's, and the coast guard's) approval.
Worst comes to worst we eat a lot of sprouts and that's not so bad last I checked.

Keepin my eye's peeled for a cat 30. Thanks for everyones input!
 
#18 ·
There are no rules about greenhouses in the cockpit and you haven't mentioned how large it would be. You'd want something that won't restrict your ability to keep watch nor turn into a missile when the winds kick up so it has to be small enough to easily take below during storms I would think. In theory only it sounds like an interesting idea. I think you're trying to take your land-based home onto the boat and mixing two very distinct worlds. Almost like a trawler would be a better fit than a sailboat.
 
#17 ·
jwatt, thanks for your thoughtful reply!
I guess I figured since the Cat and Newport are designed as weekend cruisers their interiors would be similar, thanks for letting me know otherwise.
Definitely not settling on the Newport, but I was hoping it could work considering the condition and the price. Le sigh.
Re: greenhouse (of which I'm tiring of talking about) we're not talking about a ten foot tall dutch style farm, just a small, couple feet tall, enclosed area that lets light in in which I can have some simple hanging hydro/aero-ponic troughs.
Fortunately for me I'm in Western Washington so there are plenty of boats for me to puruse.

Thanks again for your advice!
 
#21 ·
The thing I'm not getting a real clear picture of here is just what you want from the boat.

Are you merely looking for a home that floats, or a boat to journey on? You say, "till we head out to sea", yet talk about weekender designs. While some of your comments show little actual knowledge of sailboats in general.

I'm not trying to put you down or rain on your parade, it just seems you haven't fully thought this whole thing out yet.
 
#22 ·
I'm with James Wilson on this one - the question here is not living on a 27' boat, nor living on a 27' boat as a couple, nor doing so with an infant.

I could maybe see any of those.

The question is living on a 27' boat with a toddler.

I'm not saying hands-down it can't be done. I'm just saying there's a lot of "how" that needs to be filled in. Two adults can choose to live in a minivan if they want, but try that with a toddler and you will probably find yourself needing to justify your choices in front of some unfriendly government types.

(Full disclosure: I live with my wife and 5 kids in a small 3-bedroom apartment. I totally support raising families that don't need 1000 square feet per person. I totally do not support the government sticking its nose into people's lives. People should raise kids on boats. My kids dream of living on a boat. I love the Schultes. I have no idea how big a boat I'd want/need to fit my family ...)
 
#23 ·
Cliff,
I sail a Cape Dory 27. I do fine on it for a couple months at a time alone, but add a wife and baby, I don’t see it working. My hanging locker doesn’t hold all of my own clothes, the v berth is a storage place instead of a berth and there is no place for a cherry tomato in a pot even. Not if you sail your boat.

There is also a political side to look at. Most marinas in CA won’t accept live a boards under 28 ft. and I don’t know how well a green house would be welcomed across state lines, much less in other countries. I would want a larger boat. that’s just my opinion.
 
#25 · (Edited)
PBzeer, thanks for replying.
I'm looking for a home that floats so we can go on relatively short journeys - WA to Mexico, with many stops along the way. I'm interested to hear what considerations you think I should give in this endeavor - I (of course) haven't discussed every single detail of our plans but I welcome any advice.

JD, thanks for the advice! I guess we'll cross that bridge when it comes.

paul, thanks for the great advice!
I have come to the conclusion that the Newport, while a killer deal, is not for us...
What would you look for in the layout of the interior? I do definitely plan on doing some work on the living quarters.
As I said earlier, my wife and I met crewing on boats and then lived in our van, so a boat would not be so tiny. I think We'll look at some Cat 30's this weekend and check out how they feel.

Farron, thanks for the advice. the greenhouse design I'm fondest involves (very basic explanation) raising, and enclosing the back cabin windows, and in the enclosure, hanging troughs on stiff springs with a soil-less grow medium. do you have any suggestions/designs/concepts?
Thanks for everyone's time!
 
#27 ·
...

Farron, thanks for the advice. the greenhouse design I'm fondest involves (very basic explanation) raising, and enclosing the back cabin windows, and in the enclosure, hanging troughs on stiff springs with a soil-less grow medium. do you have any suggestions/designs/concepts?
I don't. It's not something I've ever thought of and will never do.
 
#28 ·
I'm looking for a home that floats so we can go on relatively short journeys - WA to Mexico, with many stops along the way.
This is what I was referring to about thinking things through. First, WA to Mexico is not a short trip, and unlike the East Coast, it's not as friendly to coastal hopping. Plus, what I know of the West Coast, going back north (if you intend to) is a whole 'nother thing.

From what you have said so far, it would seem you, and your family, would be better served by living as frugally as possible and saving up as much money as possible to buy a suitable boat, rather than one you can afford now.

Another for instance. You want a greenhouse and solar panels, yet logistically, they both need to go in about the same place. You need to get something like Nigel Calders The Cruising Handbook and spend some quality time with it to better understand the feasibility of your plans. The resources are available to learn as much as you want to, and knowing as much as you can never hurt anybody.
 
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#29 ·
Hi Cliff , and Mrs. Williams . Really I think you have answered your own question by saying you and yours are both really into it so your 99.9 percent there . Now you just have to find the right boat . Because you are asking I think the Newport is not right for you, also the Cat. is no good either ( every body has one ) I mean come on you guys are square riggers ! A friend of mine is selling her beloved Westsail 32 , her dad built it and she was raised up on it . It needs work but the price is right . What ever you two end up with , good luck !Westsail 32'
 
#30 · (Edited)
Sounds like a nice boat, but "SUITABLE"? ---- no. ----

Doable? Yeah, but like in a "All you need is food and shelter for survival" kind of way.


Same goes for a Catalina 30 - Much larger, and a couple without kids and a lot of clothes could do it for sure. But it would be hell on your kids.
 
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