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How much draft ?

7K views 35 replies 20 participants last post by  flomaster 
#1 ·
I am still trying to narrow down my possible "boats to consider list". Draft is a big concern. I hope to sail around the world. Planning to leave Florida in a few more years and take our time just sailing to new places. A good amount of the list of places to go, we would need to be at a max of about 4 feet. But I think I would want more than 4 feet of draft on any serious offshore passage.


So I guess I have 2 questions. How important is draft from a true safety point of view. And are boats with a center board or swing keel realistic choices?


Thanks for any help and if a thread already exist just point me in the right direction.
 
#2 ·
There is a fairly lengthy discussion of draft issues here: http://www.sailnet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37466

But you don't say what length boat you're looking for. 4 foot draft on a 20 footer could be considered "deep draft", on a 50 footer it would be considered extremely shoal draft. We would need more parameters to help you on this. But, off hand, I am curious where you plan to go that you feel you'll be constrained by more then 4' draft ? Are you heading to the headwaters of the Nile?
 
#3 ·
Not disrespect intended but this is a pretty fundamental question which makes me wonder, even if a few years off, if you should really be considering offshore travel or for that matter how much you might want to learn before buying a boat for such condition.
Having said that, you might want to consider a full keel boat, the characteristics of which present the best all-around draft for your plans.
 
#6 ·
Gonesailing....with all due respect...if at this stage you don't know the answer to your questions, you need a little more effort, and knowledge before you go on something like this.

I am not saying you should not or you will not be prepared to do it in a few years...it just seems to me you're lacking basic knowledge to successfully achieve such goal. Sure you don't want to be anther statistcs number.

Please read more, learn more and then enquire about the boat...You will realize, that the more you know, the more the right boat seems to present it self in fron of you...

At this stage your question sounds like this:

I want to fly around the world in a plane, should it be red or white?

Please, as I said, no disrespect.
 
#9 ·
Gonesailing....with all due respect...if at this stage you don't know the answer to your questions, you need a little more effort, and knowledge before you go on something like this.

Please read more, learn more and then enquire about the boat...You will realize, that the more you know, the more the right boat seems to present it self in fron of you...

At this stage your question sounds like this:

I want to fly around the world in a plane, should it be red or white?

Please, as I said, no disrespect.
I was raised sailing. First a venture, then a hunter, the a cal, then a sunfish, then an O'day, then a scorpion , now a san juan, being from southern Louisiana I also have experince in jon boats, go devils, canoes, pirogues, and upside down garbarge can lids(the round ones with handles on th side) when the streets would flood. I learned to use a sextant before I learned to drive a car, I still question my driving ability.
As far as effort is concerned I own and have read many books, watched dvd's, and read all the magazines.

I was hoping for a little insight on draft. If you take all the books I have read and combine the information you will find that every boat is good enough and no boat is good enough. Thought someone might have something to say that might give me a different point of view to consider.
 
#7 ·
Gonesailing - here's a suggestion that might be helpful for your "years with purpose." Contact the crewed charter boats in the Caribbean and talk yourself on board as crew. You may have to do it for low pay, but you'll get room/board/boathandling/on-the-water experience etc. I did this for a couple of years and it was invaluable as a learning tool (learned celestial as well.) Of course there were some awful people and a couple of lousy berths, but there was always a glass of rum somewhere nearby.
 
#8 ·
I agree with my friend Giu on this.

If you really want to go circle the globs, go for it. But there are a LOT of issues in doing so. First, most solid passagemaking boats that are cabable of doing that are quite expensive. You can get cheaper ones (around 100k or so), but they will very likely need a lot of refitting to the tune of tens of thousands. You can basically forget taking out a loan for the boat. Cash only... since you will need insurance and it is very hard for lifetime sailors to get insurance to circum. Newbies can just about forget it. No insurance=no boat loan.

Also, the type of boat that is req for crossing the pond is traditionally not as wide and comfortable as a boat that is intended to cruise these waters of N/S America.

THere is more to see here than you can see in a lifetime. I am not trying to dissuade your dream, but I am giving some realistic advice... and this only is the tip of the iceberg.

- CD
 
#15 ·
I agree with my friend Giu on this.

If you really want to go circle the globs, go for it. But there are a LOT of issues in doing so. First, most solid passagemaking boats that are cabable of doing that are quite expensive. You can get cheaper ones (around 100k or so), but they will very likely need a lot of refitting to the tune of tens of thousands. You can basically forget taking out a loan for the boat. Cash only... since you will need insurance and it is very hard for lifetime sailors to get insurance to circum. Newbies can just about forget it. No insurance=no boat loan.

Also, the type of boat that is req for crossing the pond is traditionally not as wide and comfortable as a boat that is intended to cruise these waters of N/S America.

THere is more to see here than you can see in a lifetime. I am not trying to dissuade your dream, but I am giving some realistic advice... and this only is the tip of the iceberg.

- CD
What do you sail? I see it says Catalina 400 technical something at the end of your post. Is that what you sail? Cause if thats what you chose to spend all that money on, then you can not possibly know much about passage making.
 
#10 ·
Other Suggestions

Ok, so "Gonesailing" wants to know some rudimentary information. Instead of verbal abuse, lets look at the question. As a follow-up, what areas do you want to visit? If you have some specific areas in mind, get ahold of nav. charts for the areas. The mean low water levels will dictate where you want to be with regard to draft.

In discussing depth, there are plenty of boats from 30 - 40 feet that (with full keel) would be great offshore boats with 5' draft. 4' is the draft of my Cal 25. I sail the Chesapeake Bay. I've only gone aground once,and that was my own fault for not heeding the depth alarm.

There are plenty of offshore sailors who are perfectly happy with a draft of up to 6 feet.

I think the best bet is to define your scope (where do you want to go) and decide on a draft based on the number of anchorages you can visit. The overall length of the boat can come later.

Regarding seaworthiness, there are several other factors besides keel depth that lead to overall seakindliness/seaworthiness. Look at the boats that have survived it all, like the Westsail 32, Cal 40, Outbound 40 - 44, etc. Things to consider are small self bailing cockpit, small, heavy port/deadlights, bridge deck and small main hatch, sealable dorade vents, sound rudder (attached to a skeg or to the keel). Hull shape that is unstable when the boat is turned "turtle" so she'll right herself, lazarettes that are structurally sealed off from the rest of the boat, heavy through hull fittings with ball valves, heavy hull construction ie: solid glass cloth instead of chop strand matting or "cored" glass hulls. Also, a keel stepped mast, double lower shrouds, multiple bulkheads to prevent oilcanning or twisting of the hull in heavy seas, etc. Of course, these are just my opinions. Every boat has it's own merits. Heck, in 1968 there was a kid (Robin Graham) who sailed a lapworth 24 around the world. Another cruising couple sailed a Cal 25 (like mine) around the world and had 2 or 3 kids along the way. Of course, I'm not recommending this, just commenting that seaworthiness is as much attributed to good planning and heeding weather forecasts/sea states as it is to a solid boat.

There are several good books on picking an offshore boat. One of which (If I can remember the name) is something like "The Seaworthy Offshore Sailboat."

Just remember, there is no such thing as a dumb question. Even the most elementary question leads to others. Isn't this how we build knowledge?

Finally, there are offshore sailing schools, where you learn the basics of navigation, routine maintenance, and successful passagemaking. I believe Annapolis Sailing School has a location in the BVI.

Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Scott
Cal 25 #1651 Indefatigable
Annapolis, MD
 
#13 ·
Ok, so "Gonesailing" wants to know some rudimentary information. Instead of verbal abuse, lets look at the question. As a follow-up, what areas do you want to visit? If you have some specific areas in mind, get ahold of nav. charts for the areas. The mean low water levels will dictate where you want to be with regard to draft.

In discussing depth, there are plenty of boats from 30 - 40 feet that (with full keel) would be great offshore boats with 5' draft. 4' is the draft of my Cal 25. I sail the Chesapeake Bay. I've only gone aground once,and that was my own fault for not heeding the depth alarm.

There are plenty of offshore sailors who are perfectly happy with a draft of up to 6 feet.

I think the best bet is to define your scope (where do you want to go) and decide on a draft based on the number of anchorages you can visit. The overall length of the boat can come later.

Regarding seaworthiness, there are several other factors besides keel depth that lead to overall seakindliness/seaworthiness. Look at the boats that have survived it all, like the Westsail 32, Cal 40, Outbound 40 - 44, etc. Things to consider are small self bailing cockpit, small, heavy port/deadlights, bridge deck and small main hatch, sealable dorade vents, sound rudder (attached to a skeg or to the keel). Hull shape that is unstable when the boat is turned "turtle" so she'll right herself, lazarettes that are structurally sealed off from the rest of the boat, heavy through hull fittings with ball valves, heavy hull construction ie: solid glass cloth instead of chop strand matting or "cored" glass hulls. Also, a keel stepped mast, double lower shrouds, multiple bulkheads to prevent oilcanning or twisting of the hull in heavy seas, etc. Of course, these are just my opinions. Every boat has it's own merits. Heck, in 1968 there was a kid (Robin Graham) who sailed a lapworth 24 around the world. Another cruising couple sailed a Cal 25 (like mine) around the world and had 2 or 3 kids along the way. Of course, I'm not recommending this, just commenting that seaworthiness is as much attributed to good planning and heeding weather forecasts/sea states as it is to a solid boat.

There are several good books on picking an offshore boat. One of which (If I can remember the name) is something like "The Seaworthy Offshore Sailboat."

Just remember, there is no such thing as a dumb question. Even the most elementary question leads to others. Isn't this how we build knowledge?

Finally, there are offshore sailing schools, where you learn the basics of navigation, routine maintenance, and successful passagemaking. I believe Annapolis Sailing School has a location in the BVI.

Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Scott
Cal 25 #1651 Indefatigable
Annapolis, MD
Thanks for not attacking my simple question.

Robin Graham did not make it around the world in a 24' lapworth he finished his voyage in a 33' Allied Luders.

There is no such thing as a dumb question but as many of your fellow members continue to prove there is an endless supply of dumb answers.
 
#16 ·
There is no such thing as a dumb question but as many of your fellow members continue to prove there is an endless supply of dumb answers.
Here we go again . . . a poster who only wants answers he likes to hear, all others are "dumb answers".

In contrast to his sometimes condescending style, Giulietta is perhaps the most knowledgable sailor on these forums. He was sincerely offering his POV based upon your extremely non-specific question. IMHO, calling anyone's response dumb will certainly earn you no respect.
 
#18 ·
I would like to thank you all. I have read your board on and off for a few months then decided to join. If possible to cancel my account please do so. I have read many a condescending answer to many peoples question and I do not fit here. Also my current boat is "Just Drifting II" My next boat will be "Just Drifting III" If any of you condesending middle aged EDITED BY CD - NO PERSONAL ATTACKS. see me, come on over and say hi.
 
This post has been deleted
#19 ·
You don't understand two things -
1. without exception everyone gave you good advice, and
2. there are an endless myriad of people who come here asking how to saill around the world who obviously have no clue what it involves.

Your original post clearly IMPLIED lack of knowledge - we simply responded accordingly.

Have a great trip when you do go
 
#21 ·
GS40,
I agree that you got a whole lot of nothing from the messages generated. If you wanted to be talked out of "goin", you got that....I'll apologize for them to you....
You don't want a flat bottom boat in the ocean...too rough riding. You want the keel to be 40% (or there about) of displacement...that will help you get back upright in a knockdown. You don't want alot of beam for length ratio...that way she'll be more apt to come back from turtle. And, go as deep as possible...righting moment. I'd be really suprised if, wherever you may go, you can't get in with 6 or 8 feet hanging below you....
Oh ya, go sailing alot ! ! ! Even if you're an experienced sailor, GO SAILING A LOT !!!!!
 
#23 ·
Excuse me? I don't think anyone tried to talk him out of going. I didn't. I even started off my thread with: If you want to corcle the globe, go for it! I did give him a very small dose of the reality of doing it.

I was not a jerk, neither was Giu or K1 or anyone. In fact, I think we were quite nice. Instead, he puts some comment out about being a Catalina Tech editor I don't know anything about passage making, or something like that. Where did that come from??

Nah, don't apologize for me. I did nothing wrong, or Giu or anyone. He could have responded back totally different and his responses would have been totally different.

- CD
 
#25 ·
I was out of line. Sorry bout that.Sure you all meant well. Sorry I asked such a generic and simple question. I was trying not to preload any thought into your heads and was attempting to be vague on purpose.
Many of you guys come off as a bit pompous and condescending.
And the notion that such an expensive vessel is required to safely navigate through the waters of this world (at least that is the way it sounds on this board) is just nonsense.
Most of the reading material on my shelf suggest otherwise.

Anyway sorry I ruffled your feathers.
 
#26 ·
Out of curiosity (and I'm sure I'll get flamed here, but it's turning cold here in the Northeast so I can use some heat :D :D)... I posted almost the exact same question last week (and it was even linked to here) and none of you jumped on me the same way you jumped on gonesailin...? Everyone answered my questions thoughtfully and gave me an honest opinion. With gonesailin people seem to be questioning his goal instead of answering his question... IM (very)HO, I actually could interpret some of the comments as inflammatory and not representative of how caring this group actually is. OK... come run me off my soapbox now!!!! :eek: I'm ready!
 
#28 ·
I know your sailing experience. To the best of my knowledge, I have never spoken to him. In other words, I have some background on you. We have talked before.

I am not sure which way I came across like 'that', honestly. It was not my intention. I traditionally word my phrases carefully. SHort of photoshopping a few people here, I go out of my way not to ruffle feathers - even whien I probably have the right to do so.

I ASSUMED, incorrectly I guess, that he had little/no sailing experience and wanted to sail around the world in a shallow draft boat. I could not count the number of times I have had people that have never set foot on a boat come to me about buying a Valiant to circle the globe a couple of times. Now, is their dream stupid. No. Hell no. That is what it is all about. But MANY people dream of doing it and end up getting the wrong boat - only to find out they would have been happier with a Catalina (for example) cruising North America or South America or the inbetween in comfort. THey end up frustrated and broke.

I personally would rather keep them around and invite them over for a sunset drink of my tub.

I cannot speak for everyone, but only for me. I hope that answers your question.

- CD
 
#27 ·
Gosailin40 was posting in the off topic area. I found his post so far out in left field, I wasn't even sure what part of the world he was from, never mind this country.
 
#30 ·
To go to the original questions. I wonder really how many places are restricted to a 4' draft. The French canals can take around 5'- 5'2". I understand the ICW is about the same, and in the Caribbean 6' draft will limit some of the places, but mostly you can anchor out a bit. Besides there is a wide choice of places to go. However, those are not my waters.

From a safety point of view, I don't know that strictly it makes too much difference but most offshore boats are 5' 6" to 6'. The greater depth gives a greater righting moment so less ballast is required lessening sail area for a given SA/Displ. That makes it easier to handle to a degree. Conversely the SA could be increased making it faster in the light.

The deeper draft could go to windward better which could be useful and a safety point but most cruising is downwind and longkeeled boats can go to windward if not as well.

The shallower draft models, say where it is an option, would tend to have more ballast to compensate for it being higher, and thus tend to be a bit slower, again SA/Displ.

Full keels are shallower slower in the light and make more leeway. Arguably they have a more comfortable motion, although there is some dissension on this. Probably a compromise of a cutaway forefoot is the middle ground.

Extra speed might have some benefit in less potential exposure to storms, but for a given size assuming trade winds the difference is probably under 5% which is 21 days not 20 on a very long passage. You could well more than make that up by reasonable sails and say a folding prop, and good trim.

Although there are areas of lighter airs this may be more of an issue in coastal sailing and downwind you have the option of a cruising spinnaker.

Offshore comfort and the ability to hold a course makes selfsteering easier and thus less tiring, which tends to favour the cutaway or full style.

I don't know the detail of centreboard styles but some qualify as ocean going. They would save leeway, be slightly faster through less drag, but because of less weight down deep have the disadvantages of shallower drafted boats in other respects. You could anchor closer but it is another thing to jam or go wrong.

One thing like draft cannnot be taken in isolation, because for a given righting moment displacement sail area, speed leeway and drag come into it. I think if you look at a designer like Perry or other successful designs you will find he uses mainly 5' 6" - 6' maybe down to 5'. This seems to represent the best compromise. Four foot is out of the ballpark, unless you go into cats or sail in a restricted area.

As someone pointed out most Americans can and do end up doing that.
 
#31 ·
Cruisingdream: Thanks for the link to a great article.

Gone Sailing: Does your original question on Draft have to do with references to the advisability of a shallow draft when sailing the Caribean?

To All: I'll have to admit, I'm a 'leap before I look' or 'ready-fire-aim' kind of guy. I've been that way all my life. I suspect that if I had sat back and coldly examined the risk of an undertaking when compared to my relative inexperience or lack of preparation, I would have missed all of the BEST experiences in my life. I wouldn't have married my Bride of 32 years when I was 19, I wouldn't have had children, I wouldn't have joined the Army as a PFC when I was 27 and I wouldn't have bought a sailboat (my first boat whatsoever) when I was 47. Will I be ready to cast off when I retire? Probably not, but I suspect I will anyway. God willing, I won't be another one of your statistics but here's to the dreamers like Gonesailing40! Keep giving him (and me) your doses of reality. We really do need it from time to time.
 
#32 ·
I say 4 foot because sailing the gulf coast of the US over 4 foot resticts most of our favorite places to anchor. Having only once had the pleasure of the Bahamas I found a few places we could not enter because dads' Hunter drew to much. So that is where the 4 foot idea comes from.

When we (wife and I) think about sailing we look at ocean crossing as a needed evil to get to the cool places. We want to be able to duck in to places others can't.

My personal experience with center board,dagger board, swing keel is all in protected waters and I do not find sufficient writings on there use as true bluewater boats. (I am Sure you guys can give the names of some books I just hadn't really found enough info.)

I am comfortable in close quarters in a 33 footer. A decent amount of experience. Much larger than that and well you know married coouple in their late 40's, slow reflexes and all.

Thoughts on multi hull vessels. Well sailing flat to me is a very uneasy feeling. Tried it a couple of times with friends and it just isn't me.


To anyone jumping in late to this thread, please disregard my earlier ramblings. Obviously I forgot to take my Midol this Am.
 
#33 ·
First post here on SailNet, but I've been lurking for a while.

I sailed dinghies and windsurfers as a kid, but have recently started cruising and racing (albeit poorly) larger boats as crew.

The boat I have sailed the most is my father-in-law's, a Pearson-Invicta. She has a combination shoal keel and swing keel. With the keel up her draft is just a hair under 5' and down it is around 8'. I am not sure if there are many modern boats with this kind of design, but may help split the difference a bit between safety and being able to gunkhole.

Another idea is to carry a sailing dinghy and use that to get up the really shallow areas. This can be loads of fun.

I sincerely hope you can make your dream happen of long term cruising, whether it is just continental or circumnav. Good luck! And don't forget to write so that all us beginners can learn from your mistakes!! :)
 
#36 ·
I sail an Islander 32--the shallow draft model. She draws 4 feet even. I'm in FL right now, but my old stomping grounds were NC. I racked up alot of miles up and down the coast (not in the ditch, either), and I can say that having 4 feet of draft is an exceptional advantage. Being able to duck in the inlets up there (please don't try it without local knowledge up there) is real nice. Also, if you ever get the whim to sail to Bermuda, you can believe that having 4 feet of draft is a good thing if you hit the island at night (reduced pucker factor--some of you have been there--you know what I mean). On the sea, when the waves get steep she doesn't tend to trip on her keel, so I don't get those nice, half-sideways landings at the bottom.
In a bigger boat, say 37-40, there will be some concessions you'll have to make for a shallow draft boat. Most deep draft boats point better. Most deep draft vessels get better VMG.
I'll be honest here--lot's of people on the dock think I'm crazy. I singlehand, and I'm not afraid to sail in all but perfect weather because I know how to sail my boat. Most people on the dock never get out past the inlet, either, so you have to take some of the dock-talk with a grain of salt.

I also read in one of the posts that you have to spend alot of money to get a seaworthy boat. I think that's a misnomer. An Allied Princess can be had for under 35K--about 45K in sailaway condition, and I'd sail one of those anywhere.

Sorry about the long post. Good luck with whatever boat you buy. Not sure if I missed it, but what are your prospects sofar?
 
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