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Message in a bottle

17K views 65 replies 20 participants last post by  SailNet Archive 
#1 ·
To all you cruisers...I have to know, how did you get away to fullfill your dreams? By that I mean, I know some of you are wealthy, and some of you are retired, but what about the others? I think about going daily (if not hourly), but in my situation it''s just not possible for at least another 4 years. At that time, I would be leaving a job at 50 years of age, 5 years short of getting paid medical benefits.I try to rationalize this by thinking "the longer I wait, the stronger the chance that I won''t ever get to go will be."Are there any cruisers out there that faced a similar dilemma? Do you have medical insurance? Are there any insurance companies that offer attractive rates for cruisers? (insurance companies offering discounts -I have to laugh at that one myself.)Anyway, to me this is a pretty big obstacle to overcome.Any advice or opinions would be appreciated.Thanks!
 
#3 ·
There have been a tremendous number of articles on Sailnet related to just these topics. The category used to be called "Finaces Afloat" and covered everything from preparation, to expected costs, to insurance. Unfortunately, the new format at Sailnet makes it difficult to find these articles easily any more.

But, here are some suggestions to find them.

1. Some of the best articles have been written by "Sue and Larry". If you look through their listed articles you are likely to find these easily.

2. Search Sailnet for "Finances" and "Health Insurance" or just "Insurance".

You will see that taking on a cruising lifestyle may be a lot less expensive than you think.
 
#5 ·
Stede,

Its sounds like finances are your key consideration. I don''t want to get into the medical insurance issue, as it varies for everyone, but rather the issue of boats and cruising costs.

I think that having a good plan, considered well in advance, is the key to limiting your cruising costs. I don''t know if you already have a boat but your choice of boat can dictate your later expenses. A nice large more traditional boat like a "Capt Ron" Formosa 51 might be compelling. But... being a 1970''s vintage it will need a lot of upgrading and most systems will begin to go. You want to spend your leisure life in leisure and not working on the dinghy outboard, replacing through hulls, bilge pumps, tech decks, rigging etc etc. Of course, if you have had a boat for a few years prior to cruising and have already upgraded all systems before going, you should be OK.

Also, in my experience, I have found that marinas have a somewhat common slip arrangement. 40ft slips are standard and may accomodate a boat up to 44ft with no extra cost. Of course most places will charge by the foot. Once over 44 ft....you then begin to pay big time. Again...this is in my experience, obviously this is not true everywhere and if you are going to be anchoring in the south pacific, it does not matter.

But in general, the bigger the boat the more everything costs. The older the boat, the more everything costs. I am not sure what the perfect boat size is...and LOA does not relate directly to cabin space or comfort...LWL and displacement are better indicators IMHO. And different people have different needs...this would be an interesting thread on its own.

After that, your cruising costs can and will be adjusted by how often you eat out, how often you take a mooring or slip and where you cruise. The islands are not cheap anymore and fresh water is not free anymore. But by and large, many cruisers are out there doing it.

Hope this helps.

John
 
#6 ·
Hello Stede,

Funny you could have been describing me and my husband. We both have sailing and cruising on the brain. It is our focus and goal to start living the cruising lifestyle within the next 2 years. I have heard that its important whether you are ready or not to set a date and all else will follow.

Our situation is the same even though you are a bit ahead of us. We''re in our late 30''s, planning to cut out in the midst of our most productive earning years, and we are definitely not wealthy. Our concerns are how to support ourselves in our older years without having to get back into the dreaded career thing again.Just want to have it be a choice not a requirement. Live in a 3rd world country? Will our measly savings and investments create enough income. How much do you really need to "retire" early etc. The costs of the cruising lifestyle I''ve heard, are fairly inexexpensive compared to land life in So Cal.

So, question to those who know given the costs of living cruising style, which I think would be similar to land life in some 2nd & 3rd world countries, how much cash reserves would be realistic to plan on for the future? Is this even a question that can be answered?

Thanks to all who share their input. I do think its a sailor thing by the way. People are so generous with their knowledge. Hopefully one day I will have the experience to share as well.

Cheers,

Pamela
 
#7 ·
Hi Pamela,and JohnDrake,
It''s great to hear from fellow dreamers that have the desire to cruise, and others that have turned that desire into reality.The financial thing is indeed the big ticket item.My dream has been for my wife to sail off into the sunset with me,but she has been battling cancer and right now things don''t look to good.It''s a very tough time,and a struggle to hold on to the dream. Planning,saving,and learning as much as I can, is the one thing that eases my mind and grants me some peace.This board is part of that process and I''m truly thankful for you all being here.
 
#9 ·
Stede,

Our thought and prayers go out to you and your wife. Breast cancer brought us ashore 2 years ago. Fortunatley, my wife has be cancer free for about 8 months now. I have sailed for over 40 years and cruised full time for 12. During those years I have been in lots of situations which turned my knuckles white, put my stomach in my throat and caused me to question my religion. But none of those events prepared me to hear "we found a growth and it appears to be spreading". Aboard our boat, I was always the one that was "in control" and my wife often looked to me for strength. How quickly roles reverse. She took the news as a challenge; I wept.

In your original post, you asked about insurance. If we had not had health insurance we could never have afforded the level of medical attention which saved my wife''s life. She would not be with us today and I would be bankrupt. Alot of people who drop everything and "just do it" seem to think that cruising is a magic pill that insures good health...WRONG. I have seen countless cruising dreams destroyed by health issues.

When we decided to cruise we developed a 3 years plan. The planned called for us to be debt free, 2 pieces of rental property paid for(approx. $1500 a month income), $50,000 in the bank (in 1988), and the boat paid for. We sold a 4000s.f. home and moved into a 1180sf house (our kids hated us), we sold the new cars and drove 2 old Volvos (again, our kids hated us), we quit eating out and stopped taking vacations (yep, the kids hated this too). My wife went back to work (school teacher) and I started working 60-70 hours a week in my business (by that point the kids were glad that they never saw me).

About 2 months before we sent our youngest off to college we sold our Hunter 27 and bought our C&C. I sold my business and we moved to the coast. My wife landed a teaching position and I worked part-time and spent the rest of my time refitting the boat. We lived aboard and worked for 1.5 years. One day we were sitting in the boat, it had been raining for 3 days and we were both going stir-crazy. My wife said "why the hell are we doing this" (my heart sank, I just knew my dream was over) "this is where we ought to be". She handed me a magazine turned to a picture of the VI''s. She turned in her resignation that week and we left about a month later.

My advise to anyone who seriously wants to cruise: establish a plan and stick to it. It will probably take 3-5 years, but it is truely worth the sacrifices. We have met 100''s of cruiser. Almost every one who had been cruising for more than one years fit into 2 catagories: 1)independently wealthy 2)had a longterm plan like ours. Very few who "sell every thing and just go", actually make it. These are the same unrealistic fools who thought the stock market would go up forever, quit their jobs and became day-traders. Now they work two jobs so they can pay the alimony and child support.

Be realistic. Have your finances in order. Take it one step at a time. Try living aboard and working for a year while you prepare the vessel and the crew.

Again, best of luck to your wife!!!

Bob-M
 
#10 ·
Pamela,

If your goal is to start cruising in 2 years, NOW is the time to "start living the life style". Do you have a realistic financial plan? You will need a source of income and an escape plan.

If I were your age, I would move to the east coast (much cheaper to live here)and continue my career, buy a veeeery small house and save, save, save. Get rib of everything except the essentials. This includes fancy cars, 3 TVs, the golf clubs (you can no longer afford expensive hobbies), etc.. Stop eating out. Can you sew? Can you & your husband fix almost every thing on the boat. Take a diesel mechanics course, get your HAM radio license. You need to be self-sufficient. If you can''t do it on the hard, you won''t do it afloat!

Then, find your boat and move aboard. Keep the house to come back to if necessary. Continue to work. This is a great way to determine if having a floating house is really for you, without giving up your careers. If the answer is YES, wait until you are financial ready. You will sail every chance you get. This will get you prepared for a new and fantastic life. DO NOT listen to advise like, "go small and go now". Remember, these folks are not selling books, they are selling dreams. If done correctly, this WILL BE YOUR LIFE for years to come!!! Your boat is about to become your home. You want to be comfortable. Not all days are sunny. You will spend countless rainy days aboard.

Good Luck!!!

Regards
Bob-M
 
#11 ·
Thanks for your response Bob-M and your kind words concerning my wife.Only someone that has been there can understand.I''m glad that all is well with your wife now.It was very awakening to hear from someone that is doing the dream, and the sacrifices made to get there.Patience has never been a strong trait of mine, especially when it comes to wanting to go cruising.I know to be able to keep cruising, a good financial plan has to be in place. I''ve been working on that.I''m saving and investing what I can.In the mean time, I sail my 26ft boat in various locations every chance I get and am studying to obtain my Captains license.My wife used to sail with me but no longer can.We chartered several larger boats in the Carribean, and Greece.She understands how I must sail and encourages me to continue to do so.I recently single-handed my boat to the Bahamas,but missed her terribly during the trip.I don''t know what the future holds for us or when my dream will be fulfilled,but I know the Lord is with us no matter what happens.Thanks again for sharing your experience and we hope that you and your wife have many more wonder years cruising.
 
#12 ·
Bob (and everyone else) -

Dumb question - but assuming you (and a majority of us) fall into the "need a plan" category - how do you know financially when you are ready to go....

I have done a lot of cruising and lived aboard my 36'' S2 for several years. I understand that the crusing budget itself is not very large (I''ve heard it can be in the neighborhood of about $15,000 per year). Establishing the means to generate this kind of income while crusing is - for someone in their late 30''s to 40''s - not outrageously difficult.

But what if you decide you want a land life after several years. I would think to have that kind of life, one would need $750K to $1 M stashed away. Or - one would need to return to a fairly lucrative career at an arbitrary point in the future (which I don''t think would be that easy to do after being away for several years and getting older still).

I''m not asking (nor do I expect) for you to put your actual numbers on the board - but if you think my numbers are even ball park correct) - how did those "on a plan" that you met cruising - to your knowledge - handle this.

I, too, want to get away. I have few commitments and fortunately I make a very good living and I don''t spend a lot on things that aren''t necessities - but I don''t see being able to retire in 5 years. I just don''t understand how others can do it!

Can you shed any light on this?

Thanks.
 
#13 ·
Stormer,

The answer really depends on what you expect when you go back (IF you go back). My wife & I lived a rather "fat" life style before we made the commitment. New cars every 3-4 years, ski vacations, sailing E/O weekend, a 4000sf house, ate out 3-4 nights a week. It has been close to 20 years (4 planning, 1.5 living aboard & working, 12 cruising, 2 ashore of medical reasons). Once we rid ourselves of our material "things", we never missed them. Now that we have been back for 2 years, things like a big house, tv''s in every room, new cars, etc. seem almost decadent. In our 20s, 30s & early 40s be HAD to acheive and accumulate stuff. It proved how sucessful we were and we enjoyed it. Cruising has truely changed us. The only way I can think to say it is: we are simple people now and live a simple life style.

To be specific about finances, we had 2 rental houses that now net us $1500 mo. My wife receives $1100 a month in retirement. The money we received from the sale of my business was substantial. We earmarked $1000 per month towards cruising(We have never touched the principal or the additional interest). When we left, everything was paid for (boat, rental property, one car) and we had a little over $50,000 in the cruising account.

The last few years aboard, we probably spent $2000 - $2500 per month (excluding any refit expenses). We usually were able to save about $10,000 each year which usually went into the boat. We know lots of folks who spend closer to $2000 per month, INCLUDING boat upkeep, but they are in smaller/older boats or in some cases stop periodically and work.

There are a million different situations, but in general I thnk I would be correct in saying that folks don''t go back to their old life styles. Living afloat tends to slow you down and causes you to look at the world and life differently. Isn''t that why you want to go??? However, if you think that you will want to "pick-up where you left off", it will probably be difficult to do so without substantial reserves.

Regards
Bob-M
 
#14 ·
Hello again to all,

We are engaging in some very important subjects. It seems that no matter where we all fall within the process, we''re on the same page. There are many reasons that have fueled our desires, but one primary reason I have relates to health, and the strong desire to travel and experience this lifestyle whilst healthly. While my parents were in the midst of their cruising, my dad was undergoing interferon treatments for Hep C, amongst other things and mom was in menopause. Ick! Sounds miserable!

Stede, you and your wife are in my prayers!

As far as developing and undertaking a plan, since we are sharing some specifcs. Here''s our plan. Maybe some further ideas can be suggested and/or someone might be able to apply some of our plans in their own situation. that''s what this dialogue is all about right?

My husband and I have been boat centered for several years now. We purchased our Fairweather Mariner/ Westsail 39 about 2 years ago. Since we live close to the marina, we spend nearly every weekend at the boat either maintaining, upgrading, or playing. My husband knows the mechanical systems very well, and I am learning. We do all the regular maintenance, brightwork, enginework, everything ourselves (except cleaning the bottom),which creates a stronger knowledge base with each project. In fact the cruising upgrades have begun with the intention that by the time we cut the lines we will know how to run and have the bugs mostly worked out of the various systems. Yes, I can sew and I am a very good whipper and seizer!

Our financial plan is this.

We own an apartment building which nets $2-3000/month after expences, vacancy reserve, mortgage, etc. We feel relatively comfortable that a reasonable level of positive income can be produced even with a drop in rents, increase in interest rates, or change in market conditions. This is our crusing income.

Neither of us will receive retirement income from our careers, and because we do not want to have to jump back into the system afer cruise life, Our future land plan would be with the assumption that we will live somewhere other than US. It is just too expensive to live in the US near the ocean which is important to us.

We will maintain our current health insurance "Blue Shield" which will cover emergency situations outside of US and full coverage otherwise.

Savings wise, not including IRA''s etc. which are stuck in the fluctuating mutual fund market, & not that huge anyway after losing most of their value, our goal is to have a minimum of $250,000 cash, plus the equity in our home which we still might consider selling (apx $200K equity). This principal will sit untouched til life after cruising.

We rarely eat out (maybe 1-2X/month), don''t spend money on any new home stuff, drive well maintained 8 yr old cars, rarely buy new clothes. Yet to look at us, we do not appear lacking- just a matter of choices and priorities.

Relating back to Stormer''s message... Does this plan seem realistic and for life after cruising in "work optional" mode, outside of the US , do these reserves seem adequate.

I''ve figured that worst case if we had to come back to US we could reinvest our principal into multi-family property and create some additional income.

Our plan is to move aboard next summer after we sell our house and one of us quits work. As long as we both continue to work, it just too hard to have our big dog without a big yard!

So, I feel like I''ve seriously rambled here. But I guess I''m hoping that someone will say Yes, your plan is sound. GO FOR IT!

Thanks to all, i appreciate all of your input and great thoughts!

Pamela
 
#15 ·
Pamela,

I''m truely excited for you. It is obvious that you and your husband have done what is necessary from the financial end to live out your dream. From what you have outlined, you are more than ready. A budget of $2500 per mo. is more than enough. Barring any unforseen events, you should have enough for some extras (ocassional car rentals, movies, restaurants, etc.) I''m even more excited for your husband. He is lucky enough to be married to you. A spouse who shares the dream equally; this is rarely the case and makes your chances of success much greater.

If you intend to cruise for an extended period of time, why are you going to keep the house? Unless you are emotionally attached, more investment property = more $ to put away for when you do return.

Regards
bob-m
 
#16 ·
Pamela, Congratulations to you and your husband! It sounds like you and him are about ready to untie the lines and sail away.I have to echo Bob''s comments about your husband being a lucky man to have someone like you that shares the dream.It''s always good to hear of someone making the dream come true.Your financial picture sounds a whole lot better than mine will be when I go.But as a friend of mine use to say,"Poor folks, have poor ways." I won''t exactly be poor,but I should have enough to live a modest cruising lifestyle. I have some skills that I can fall back on if needed.Thanks for the comments concerning my wife. Bon voyage!
 
#21 ·
To Stede & the group...

Looking back at this thread, there are some pretty consistent messages. Beyond them, it''s fair to apply general themes about financial & retirement planning to a ''cruising escape'' plan, as they are in fact the same. Here''s my shot at summarizing, folding in info from other sources (e.g. Latitude 38 frequently has cruising sailor accounts of budgets, financial planning prep, etc.) and our own experience:
1. Medical insurance once you surrender access to a group plan, is one key inhibitor for many. Because health coverage is more universal and liability costs are far less in other developed countries, we have to at least investigate sources of coverage outside the U.S., e.g. Siegfried Preuss Group Health in Germany, which cruising sailors have found (e-mail: preuss.yachtversicherungen@t-online.de). For an explanation of this, one helpful boat web site is http://www.norsiglar.com/english/spesificationf.html - look for ''insurance'' on the left margin.
2. "Retirement Income" for most of us can only be the result of working a savings & investment plan relentlessly for a lengthy period. If unclear how to do this thoroughly, attend an Adult ed course. Alternatively, get one of the many excellent books and work your way through it, together if with a partner, religiously. Some folks enjoy having a hefty Golden Handshake but most of us who are cruising got here by spending carefully, investing steadily, and remaining on careful budgets while cruising. No secrets; just steadily working The Plan.
3. The money used to invest in one''s escape (whether it qualifies as ''retirement'' or is just a ''break'') comes from examining your lifestyle and adjusting it to support your future goals - again, no secrets. There are lots of good examples of this in the posts preceeding this one, but here are a couple of details I don''t see being mentioned that are very helpful for some of us: 1) initially write down every single expense, every day, over several months - usually, people discover money is being used in ways or in quantities that surprise them; 2) construct an annual budget based on the essential expenses you are identifying, and follow the budget - this means posting expenses, revisiting goals, adjusting the budget as you learn what was omitted/can be done without, etc. at least weekly...until this becomes a way of life; 3) Your computer is your friend - it makes doing all this ''book-keeping'' much less painful; moreover the web has some useful $$ planning software on-line and free.
4. FWIW, we have kept a 4-year annual budget, looking forward, for the last 10 years, to help us reach both our cruising goals and retirement planning goals. It wasn''t fun but was the only way we got where we did. Altho'' we are inbetween extended cruises and busy doing a refit, we continue to maintain the budget and track costs daily even tho'' folks might assume we no longer need to. Truth is, we do. We have left careers twice for extended periods (once in our early 40''s, without health or boat insurance; now in our 50''s, with health & boat insurance - guess we''re more risk averse now!) and believe re-entry to the work world is just another challenge that must be thoughtfully tackled once you face it.
5. Amen to the many comments about adopting the lifestyle before you begin the cruise! Working on boat systems is like on-the-job training with both immediate & longer-term financial benefits. We are not *entitled* to new(er) cars, new clothes, meals at nice restaurants, a large home and get-away vacations...none of those are "ours" nor are they essential to health, happiness, an appealing appearance, or a respectable lifestyle. Instead, those are purchasing decisions we tend to make with that veneer of entitlement, as tho'' they are part of a basic lifestyle. Some can afford to operate this way, but most of us can''t...tho'' truthfully, many of us do.
6. Accept - in fact, embrace! - the fact that we all must cruise within our own individual means. If someone is thinking they don''t know how others can afford to go cruising when they can''t, they''re likely picturing a size boat, number and type of boat systems, cruising route and/or ''style'' of cruising that, sad to say, just isn''t within their grasp. Young people take off with almost no savings. You''ll find boats of all sizes in the same interesting ports. Cruisers of some nationalities (the French are great examples) often place functionality, simple systems with hull/deck/rig integrity, and a simple lifestyle as the only thresholds to going cruising. This attitude tends to set more feasible norms for others and low-cost cruising becomes more widely supported as a result. Put another way, we all encourage a distorted view of cruising when encouraging air conditioners, water makers, massive electrical systems or "needing at least 40 feet" as prerequisites for a ''good'' cruising boat. (I''ll confess I tend to emphasize safety issues & equipment here to the extent that it may make some feel like they can''t afford such ''adequate'' safety, when in fact they may be thinking about *my* view of what''s adequate).

I''ve seen a LOT of individual cruising budgets over the last five years (SSCA Bulletins, L38 articles, numerous books by Beth Leonard, Liza Copeland, etc., and on many BB''s like this one. These budgets are all over the place! They reflect far more on the individual crews'' desire to be cruising, their creativity and ingenuity in dealing with issues other than throwing money at them, setting reasonable goals, and not being bothered when they''re the only ones in an anchorage that haven''t visited the local cantina or are on one of the smaller, simplier boats in the anchorage - and such budgets reflect far less on what is actually "required to go cruising".

Good luck to all of those who aspire to retire and/or go cruising in the absence of large pensions or investment portfolios. Trust in the fact that it can be done. You just need roll up your sleeves and get busy. <g>

Jack
 
#22 ·
Hi Jack, thanks a lot for taking the time to respond.It''s very refreshing,and encouraging to hear from someone that addresses the "brass tacks" of what it takes to actually make the dream a reality.You''ve given myself,and I''m sure others much to ponder and research.Yesterday,I was a long way away from being able to cruise full time.Today,I''m another day closer.Happy New Years to all!!
 
#24 ·
Excellent, insightful thread!!!
My problem - I (mostly) agree with ALL the preceeding posts.

Our experience:
1992, we in our early 40''s:
Quit jobs, sold eveything and "just did it", intending a 2 year cruise, but hoping for longer - not financially prepared for longer.
1994:
Having spent the "kitty" began working summers, cruising winters.
2001:
Family circumstances require that we return(to former) home to help. Sell boat.
2003 we now in our mid-50''s:
Back to "career" working, wondering when we''ll get back afloat.

Of the MANY LESSONS LEARNED:
(1)More preparation would be better, but we would''nt have missed our decade afloat for anything.
We were ill-prepared (financially) to "get away", but made a very good "go" of it - and could have continued to. Our (summer) earning ability started slowly, but increased dramatically evey year.

(2) It''s very difficult to return to a career, after you''ve been away any significant time. Your skills & contacts become "stale".

We encourage your preparation, but suggest that there''s never enough - so at some time you''ve "just gotta go".,
Regards,
Gord May
 
#25 ·
Bob-M,
I am sorry you feel it necessacary to say that the one''s who just sell it all and go are unrealistic fools.
I knew the stock market was going to tank for years before it did! Any idiot could see that coming. Unfortunately, I have been out of work for almost a year now. The economy sucks, it isn''t getting better, no-one is spending money, no-one is hiring, they are shipping all our jobs off to India and after giving the corporate world everything I had, they just toss us aside like lint on their big polished mahagony desktops.
Well, I am sick of it. I refuse to try to work my butt off to make some corporate giant rich so that they can lay-off eveyone on a whim (god forbid the executives take a paycut or the stock price dips a little). The longer I stay here, trying to work and save money, the more money it costs to live and work. If my sailing only lasts a year or two, who cares. The boat is paid for and I am young and have lots of time. (sorry for the little rant)
I generally agree with a lot of your advise but I also believe that most people, Americans especially, are too scared to make a decision on their own, that is why you keep seeing the same question being asked over and over and over, sometimes by the same people. And that, unfortunately, is not a good quality for anyone in a self-sufficient situation. You have to be able to make a decision on your own (an informed one though), commit to it and follow thru.
Preperation is a very good idea but don''t discount those who actually still have some adventure left in them (or don''t have much choice). I must say the stress of worrying about money is much greater to me than the stress of learning to sail or living aboard or even being lost at sea.
Not everyone visiting here is a 40-50 y.o. professional with $50K+ in the bank. Some of us low-lifes are just trying to make it to some dream the best way we know how. For me it means buying a boat, selling everything I have (I have a ton of stuff), and moving aboard. Better to go broke in a beautiful place doing something I love than to do it here in the middle of the concrete jungle while trying to make somebody else rich. And as for health insurance, I have NEVER used it and since I lost my job, I haven''t had it anyway. So how is it different when sailing? I have been to third world countries, and it is MUCH, much, much, much cheaper to get medical attention there. Did I mention how much cheaper it is? The amount of money I spent on insurance last year alone would pay all of my doctors bills for the last 10 years of my life! (I never go to the doctor) Granted, it is nice to have, unfortunately for me it is now filed in the "niceties" catagory and not "necessary".

my 2¢
 
#26 ·
Ahoy Stede, The Pirate of Pine Island has seen your side of life and though it (life) can through you some curves keep at it. I''ve spent nearly two years just trying to get the boat ready and away from the dock and I keep getting waylaid by one thing or another. I personally have had to battle a demon or two and health can be a real issue. I however would rather spend my time in poor health doing what Iam doing . Sailing is the reason for living and nothing can take that away from you, if you truly love it. As a Pirate I don''t worry about insurance too much in truth I''ll go down wit me ship one day wether the doctors get paid or not.
 
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