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Outfitting C36 for passagemaking

10K views 38 replies 12 participants last post by  SYMandalay 
#1 ·
I'm shopping for my first 'big boat' and trying to be realistic about how I will use it for the next 10 years until I 'retire'. There's alot I like about an older Catalina 36 (under $60,000) home ported in San Diego. I realize it's designed/built as a light weight coastal cruiser but I also have read where it's logged plenty of miles offshore. I expect to mostly sail the coastal areas from Baja to Catalina to San Fran. However, I would like to have the boat be capable of an extended passage shoud the need arise before I've upgraded to a true 'bluewater yacht'. I like (in theory) taking on the project of beefing up the C36 in a way that I maximize her bluewater capability. Questions - What are her weak points in the bluewater/passagemaking arena? What are the logical upgrades I can have done that will enhance her offshore capability while still retaining the good qualities I'll enjoy in coastal So Cal?
Thanks in advance!
 
#2 ·
C36's have done off shore work, and still do in a lot of cases. That said, WHY take a great coastal cruiser and try to convert her for the off chance of going off shore?

Define off shore first, and if you are going to do true passages, get a different boat. The boat will take the beating of a passage if it is in good shape to begin with. However, tankage is not adequate for long passages, and if you add lots of tankage you will lose the little bit of storage you have. Buy a boat that you can invest in for the future. There are bluewater boats available in your price range, that with work can last well into the future. The dollars you invest to make the C36 a passage maker will actually devalue her.
 
#5 ·
Other than limited tankage, where else is a C36 lacking when it comes to passagemaking?
There was a fellow in the last five years that I recall reading about in one of the sailing magazine who had a Catalina 36, I believe, that he spent ages outfitting to do either a race or just a passage from the U.S. West Coast to Hawaii.

The story was instructional.

The parts I recall included equipment failures of various types, crew sickness due to extreme movement, and I believe eventually a rudder post failure, taking on water and an offshore rescue.

Does this mean the Catalina 36 shouldn't be taken to Hawaii? No.

Does this mean there are better boats? Assuredly.

Does this mean better boats for offshore will be regularly passed in light air and coastal waters by tanned, bikini-wearing crew of Catalina 36s, drinking cocktails and barbequing on the rail, while the better boat for offshore helmsman is sitting in his tiny, self-bailing cockpit, sewing chafe gear in his oilskins? Could be. Probably, in fact.

But both boats are sailing, and both crews are enjoying themselves. The difference is that one crew wouldn't enjoy themselves at all in 40 knots and 18 foot seas 600 miles northwest of San Diego, and the other wouldn't give it much thought. It's not a "one's better, the other's worse" situation, merely a different one. Learn why, and your list will write itself.
 
#4 · (Edited)
My Yacht Broker, Capn Jack at Charlotte Schmidt's transpac'd one to Hawaii in 1996 or 97 i think. he said it was plenty capable but the bulkheads squeaked like hell. said they sprayed WD-40 on them to quiet the noise. he and Nimfy got into a huge debate over the crossing capabilities and seaworthiness of one. he said he would do it again anytime. dont shoot the messenger

 
#7 · (Edited)
YES ..CDs my hero.

C36 have been all over the world, that said....

1) The 36 has a shallow bilge which means that when you are beating, and should you take on some water (which any boat will), the water level could be higher than the bilge but the bilge pump will not pull it out. THus the water will raise above the floorboards. THis can be corrected with some mod's to a port/stbd hose to manually pull the water off via a manual switch bilge pump, but it is something you should consider.

2) The 36 has low tankage, espedcially to cross an ocean. You can modify this with diesel and water bladders water is easy fit a water maker.- but you will have to modify for fuel storage.

3) You rudder is not protected, no skeg. You cannot modify this. You can take some other means for sterring the boat in case of a rudder failure... I would.

4) You only have 2-4D's on that boat, each if new AGM's would only give about 200 ah before recharge (using the 50% rule). You need to consider how you will recharge the batts for 2+ weeks at sea. If you are running an autopilot, you will really eat into that 200. think wind vane steering.
 
#9 ·
Here's the story of someone who attempted to sail to Hawaii in a Catalina 36 http://equipped.com/0698rescue.htm . This thread has been worked over several times on Sailnet before...but just the same...Although the immediate reason for abandoning the attempt was the sickness of a crew, its pretty apparent that two days of moderate offshore use had reduced the boat to a shambles. Assuming the steering had been upgraded and not failed, its apparent that at best the crew might have arrived in Hawaii in a totally misereable state - the issue to me is, while you should live through such a trip in such a boat, you have to be pretty dumb to take such on.
 
#12 ·
Mike,

I am not going to regurgitate what has been said here. I will say that for your intended use, it is a great boat - that is coastal cruising, etc. Ever sailied a C36?? Great sailing boat. YOu will just plain have fun sailing it and just going out on it.

Many cruisers I have known have gone all over the place (N/S America) on a C36. I talked to a couple about amonth ago that lived on theirs for 7 years in the carib. Another I know sailed the carib, around New York, then back down to the carib twice before letting go of her. ANother couple I have communicated with still live on their C36 in the carib.

It is a very comfortable layout, and pretty traditional. It is easy to sail and a nice liveaboard. It should be easy to get rid of when the time should come.

Now that I have said all these praises, I will also say that it would not be my first choice of boats to hop across ANY pond on. In addition to the concerns laid out by Simon, the portholes are not my preferred portholes for crossing, you might want to consider updating/replacing the rigging for something newer (given the age of the boat), and you will have to secure all bilge boards and deck access (like the anchor locker) with positive locks. That is just a few of the things that pop to mind. ANd let's not forget this boat does not have a skeg hung (IIRC) rudder or water tight bulkhead.

SO, can you fix/change all of this? I guess. But the cost would be extraordinary and I doubt you would ever get it back when you sell it. Maybe you don't do all that sstuff and just take your chances. Or, maybe you would be better suited buying another boat that is made for that purpose. HOWEVER>>>>>>>> before you do that:

I find most blue water boats slow and typically motored (no offense).

I find most BW boats tight in both cockpit and down below (by design). Many of them just seem uncomfortable liveaboards until you get into the larger boats.

I find BW boats dissporportionaltely priced, in general.

Buy your boat for your intended purpose. If you are soon to go offshore, buy a boat focused on that. But if that is only a maybe, then buy a boat you will enjoy sailing and will enjoy living aboard. If you really want to cross the pond after that, you will know better than I what your boat would need and whether to replace it or ship it.

Just my suggestions. Take them for what they are worth (probably not much!!! smile)

- CD
 
#13 ·
I'm blown away by the amount of info available on this webiste! Thanks to all who've responded to my initial post regarding outfitting a Catalina 36 for 'across the pond' passagemaking. Now, back to the initial question(s).
What are her weak points in the bluewater/passagemaking arena?
What are the logical upgrades I can have done that will enhance her offshore capability while still retaining the good qualities I'll enjoy in coastal So Cal?
 
#14 ·
The amount of info on this site is amazing! Thanks to all who have responded thus far regarding a Catalina 36 upgrade for 'across the pond' passagemaking.
Now, back to the original questions.
What are her (C36) weak points in the bluewater/passagemaking arena? What are the logical upgrades I can have done that will enhance her (C36) offshore capability while still retaining the good qualities I'll enjoy in coastal So Cal?
Thanks again in advance!
 
#15 ·
Are you *sure* you don't want a different boat? Because the costs involved to beef up a production boat of any make from anticipated coastal use to bluewater could be ruinously expensive...and you still wouldn't have a bombproof boat, relatively speaking.

Allow me an example: I had a friend in my teenage years who spent a summer putting a 427 cu. in. Chevy V8 engine into a Vega. Oh, how he worked. Finally, he was done. We all hopped in and the rumble of the engine was stunningly loud. So was the sound of the transmission exploding after about 15 minutes at a mere 75 mph. So was the sound of a body panel flying off from the ridiculous vibration. Lucky I had cab fare. It turned out that while you can convert a Vega into a hot rod, it's still a Vega, and it won't last long as a hot rod.

See the full keel/fin keel thread for some greater depth.
 
#18 ·
Mike,

It is the wrong boat. Sorry. Buy a Tayana 37 for that run. It will not be much more money upfront and the in the end will likely be less money.

People have done it... it has been done many times. If you are serious that this is the only boat you would consider doing it, I will put some thought into it. I just hope it is not intended to be an academic excercise on my part. WHy THAT boat?? 80's-90's will get you a T-37 that will be close to making that trip and outfitting a c36 at 60k may cost you more than that.

I am not trying to be difficult, honetsly. I am just trying to understand. PM me if you would like or we can discuss over the phone.

- CD
 
#19 ·
MikeAlyea.

The big problem as I see it is you are talking about ocean travel in the higher latitudes. You will get hammerd there is no doubt about it, and to spend a week or weeks pushing through a sea way a light weight production boat will not be fun (not that is ever is) and the odds of sustaining structual damage is very real.
That said, I would seriously consider the C36 capable of a Pacific crossing with the trades at the right time of the year with some basic modifications not rushing or working to a strict timetable. Hey I may just do it myself.
 
#21 ·
C36 to Hawaii

It was done as recently as this summer. Lady Liberty, a 1987 Catalina 36 from Oxnard raced the 2007 Transpac. As a side note, I would think that it is a very safe bet that there are more Santa Cruz's (and N/M's, and Andrews, and J's) crossing oceans every year than BCC's or Westsails. They also return from their various ocean passages against the trades, remember. A full keel, attached rudder, bulwarks, etc., etc. are hardly the absolute necessity some seem to propose. Also, remember that racers can't wait out bad weather and have to sail no matter what they may encounter.
 
#22 ·
I think I'm coming to recognize just how similar sailing and aviation are. I can fly around the globe in a Cessna 172 - under the 'right conditions' - but WHY?
It sounds like the C36 is nearly ideal for my first 'big boat' slipped in So Cal and sailed 'near offshore' from Cabo to San Fran - with a passage to Hawaii not out of the question. But, when/if the time comes (ie, retirement) that I need to circumnavigate, rather than, shall we say - 'putting lipstick on a pig' -I'll just need to bite the bullet, write the check and buy a true bluewater cruiser.
In the meantime, I'm looking for all the advice available on how best to refit an older C36 to get the most out of her.
I owe everybody lunch - fish tacos at South Beach!!!!!!
 
#25 ·
Mike...a T37 in good condition is an 80-100k boat. Anything listed for less than that will need a lot of work IMHO. You will find the T37 quite small and cramped compared to the Catalina...but that is the trade-off for seaworthiness.
As to Catalina36's...you've gotten good advice here and I am also a fan of the boats for their purpose. One thing I have only seen brushed upon for bluewater use is that the hull has a LOT of flex to it as the seas get heavier. This means that on long passages, the hull and things attached to it like bulkheads and hull deck joint will get flexed extensively which will leads to a lot of wear and tear and possible failures. I don't think you can "upgrade" out of that problem.
 
#26 · (Edited)
For some unknown reason, there are a lot of people around here who like to denigrate Catalina's. I'm not sure why. A C36 is more than capable for cruising the region between <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com
San Francisco</st1:City> and <ST1:p<st1:placeName w:st="on">Banderas</st1:placeName> <st1:placeType w:st="on">Bay</st1:placeType></ST1:p. I personally know a retired couple who have been cruising western <ST1:p<st1:country-region w:st="on">Mexico</st1:country-region> for the past six years in a C36. Oh, and another thing, at 16,000 pounds, I wouldn't consider this boat a "lightweight" anything.


Up here in <st1:City w:st="on"><ST1:pSan Francisco</st1:City>, your price range is going to limit you to boats built in the mid 1980s. A lot of what you will have to do is in the nature of bringing the boat up to a more modern cruising standard rather than making it "blue water capable". For example, you will be looking at: upgrading the electrical and battery systems; installing some sort of auxiliary battery charging system; putting in some long range communication capability; Upgrading the navigation suite; installing a water maker: And an autopilot/self steering system if you plan on sailing short handed. <O:p
<O:p
I am currently helping on bringing a Nordic 44 up to the ORC (Ocean) Category 1 standard so we can race the Pacific Cup. I can tell you there isn't a boat around that at that standard when shipped from the builder. The biggest thing you have to do is install an emergency steering (rudder) system. The second thing is developing a locking mechanism for the main hatch slider. The <ST1:p<st1:placeName w:st="on">Lewmar</st1:placeName> <st1:placeType w:st="on">Ocean</st1:placeType></ST1:p series hatches are sufficient although you might want to swap out the plastic Bomar opening portlights for something more substantial. After-all, with a boat that old, you will be removing and rebedding everything anyways. A C36 out of <ST1:pSouthern California</ST1:pl had a bad experience breaking a rudder some time ago. You will want the yard to remove and inspect the rudder shaft and bearing for wear. Also, you should replace the rigging on a boat of that age. If you are thinking of a third reef or storm trysail, you may want to consider putting in a "baby stay" although you'll probably get a lot more use out of a good spinnaker down in <ST1:p<st1:country-region w:st="on">Mexico</st1:country-region></ST1:p.<O:p
<O:p
Catalina is one of the few builders left who build the hull and deck first then "fish" interior components through the companionway before installing them. On one hand, it's nice to know that anything inside the boat can be replaced and it is easy to unscrew interior pieces in order to route wiring and plumbing. The downside is some wood panels are prone to creaking. If that bothers you, feel free to glue everything together with 5200 like the other builders do.<O:p
<O:p
You will hear a lot about the lack of tankage on a C36. They are indeed designed to have a "cruising range" of one week (this is from Gerry Douglas, the designer). So this boat is a little "short legged" for the coast of <ST1:p Baja. However, technology has evolved enough to get a smaller water maker that is modular and the installation can be broken down into several spaces on the boat. I know of one person who did this and swapped out the second water tank for a fuel tank. In regards to fuel tankage, a large number of cruisers employ jerry jugs so don't worry if you think this is a fashion faux pas.<O:p
<O:p
The C36 owner's website is an excellent technical resource as is the Single Handed Sailor's Society of San Francisco. The Pacific Cup website is another great resource for "blue water" preparation. <O:p
<O:p
Given the right weather window, this boat will do the extended cruising you are thinking about. But why would you want to go to someplace like <st1:State w:st="on"><ST1:pHawaii</ST1:pl</st1:State>? It's 2,200 nm out in the middle of nowhere and there is no parking once you get there. For example, once we finish the Pacific Cup in the Nordic, we only have two weeks to prep the boat for the return trip before they kick us out of <st1:City w:st="on"><ST1:pKaneohe</ST1:p</st1:City>.
 
#27 ·
She's an 84 cutter rig. No teak on deck all fiber glass. She has 100 gallons of fuel, 100 gallons of water, water maker, solar panels, auto pilot, Monitor wind vane, 6 bank house baterries 748 amps, 1 starter batterie, cruising spiniker, 2 mains, roller furling, 3 anchors 300 feet 3/8 chain rode. Radar, wind, knot and depth finder. New stays in 97, new bottom paint in 06 no blisters. Many extras. Asking mid 90K. Shes been cruising Mexico when I found her in Lapaz. I bought her in 98 with the thought of cruising when retired. Unfortunately personal life issues came about and decide to either sell her or just live aboard. Only sailed her a couple times since owning her so pretty green on the boats performance. She's very clean and well maintained.
 
#29 ·
Your price isn't out of line. Tayanas are heavy even by my standards, but the absence of teak is going to attract someone who likes the type but has spent five minutes thinking about the upkeep of teak over fibreglass. Good luck selling her and it's too bad you feel you have to. If it's in good condition, it would make a good couples cruiser.
 
#28 ·
There is a big difference between an ocean race boat and a cruiser. Number age experience and fitness of crew for a start. These factors plus the anticipated duration of the race/cruising would also influence the degree of discomfort tolerable.
They may not wait out bad weather, but many also end up retiring.
They don't in fact return from Hawaii against the trades. The usual route is to go North and try to pick up favourable winds.
The full keel etc etc may not be absolutely necessary but a boat designed for comfortable shorthanded cruising may well be preferable in the long term for long distance cruising, just as a racer may be more suitable for racing.
 
#30 ·
Valiente, Thanks for the input. Yes, heavy boat 33K hanging on the straps. I really love the boat but hate to see it sit at the dock. She should be on the move enjoying the life. Agree perfect boat for a cruising couple. The aft cabin acts as a nice storage area when on the move. I haven't put her up for sail as of yet but if someone is looking for that style of boat I would let her go so she could enjoy the life.

Thanks again !

S/V Tundra Spirit
 
#33 ·
Valiente, Thanks for the input. Yes, heavy boat 33K hanging on the straps.
That's incredible. I have (as mentioned elsewhere) a steel 40 footer cutter with vast tankage that weighs 29,500 lbs. in the straps. The boat beside me in the yard is a Tayana 45, and while you wouldn't think a steel tank like mine would have anything to worry about, but I wish it wasn't upwind of me when those winter gales start blowing. It's the only boat heavy enough to crush mine like a pop can if its cradle failed.

Of course, my full keel might act like a wedge...:D
 
#35 ·
Yes, but I consider Tayanas in good condition like Bayfields or Gozzards: Sentiment and pure esthetics mean that a boat in prime condition can command a bigger premium than the average, whereas a stock Hunter 33 is going to "trade", so to speak, in a more narrow range.

If people want them, it's what the market will bear (look at used Shearwater 45s, I know I have...). If they don't, get out the 30% off signs. C&C 35s command a premium locally, because they hit a known sweet spot of size, comfort, speed and "fun", even though they are 20-30 years old now and frequently have sodden decks and tired stays.

My own boat is unusual enough that I bought it at a discount to what I could get for it in, for instance, Europe, where unrusted steel pilothouses are understood and desirable. This difference is profound enough that it would be worth it to sail it to Europe emptied of personal possessions and selected gear and to sail it to a brokerage in France or Holland. The tax implications of this are unclear as of yet, but I've had inquiries here in Canada from visiting Europeans enough to convince me it's not a crazy notion.

I suppose the only upside to owning a boat that doesn't sell is that you may just give up and sail the thing for its intended purpose. Worse outcomes are conceivable.
 
#34 ·
Umm... valiente, you're steel beastie is a bit heavier in construction than a pop can. :D Besides, isn't that what insurance is for???
 
#36 ·
Chris...NADA means "NADA" when it comes to pricing boats. They are really not even a great indicator on cars...but closer. The BUC book is closer and for a T37 1984 boat in AVERAGE BUC condition here is their range:
Retail Price Range:* $72,200-$79,400
Please see the vessel condition table below, to determine how condition affects market value.
A boat in top BUC condition adds 15-20% .
www.bucvalue.com is a better site to use when evaluating prices of boats with reasonable production runs. It fails miserably on short production or custome boats.
 
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