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Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Boat Review and Purchase Forum > Is this seller legit?
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Thread: Is this seller legit? Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
02-12-2008 04:37 PM
NOLAsailing
Quote:
That's absurd. However you analyze this, he's lying. If you want to be a victim, go for it.
A victim? What the hell are you talking about?

Actually...nevermind. I'm not arguing with a troll.

To the original poster - the J/22 is, like the Pearson 30, a fairly simple boat, with one major exception: the cored hull. The good news is it is fairly easy to determine core condition. Also carefully check the keel/hull joint. As others have mentioned, if you can determine the boat can legally be sold to you and you still want the boat, then proceed with caution and do everything by the book (i.e. don't sign a bill of sale that says $100).

The J/22 Association site has lots of really good information.
02-12-2008 03:55 AM
Aasem
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOLAsailing View Post
You get real. There's no possibility of determining the seller's intention from the limited information posted here. It may be a scam or an indication of his dishonesty. It may be a misunderstanding of tax laws. It may be an excuse to insist on a cash deal. There's nothing idiotic about considering a number of reasons for his insistence on cash. I understand your point and I disagree.
That's absurd. However you analyze this, he's lying. If you want to be a victim, go for it.
02-11-2008 05:13 PM
sanctuarysam
now it comes better into focus

as said above, little J's have a hard life..i speak from J/24 experience.
chances are the sails are like baby blankets, doubtful of any significant delamination..they pretty much figured that out during their vermiculite days.
is there just a hull in the water..or does this transaction involve a roadworthy trailer. if not, 5k for a "rode hard, put away wet" J/22 may not be out of line. if she's sitting dry, you can go over the hull yourself (the rest of the boat for that matter), you can crawl all through her and find every pimple or blemish she has..granted,if you know what you are looking for.
she have a functioning outboard? (the little things start adding up..sails, decent 4 hp light outboard..kite anything resembling creature comforts down below (an exposed head is always a favorite among the female sailors might i add)
the fact she is 22' may be why w/ no motor she is an "undocumented alien" of sorts.
i bought my 82 J/24 in 2001..and paid 7.5k with a trailer serviceable enough to get to our club's lift. it would have been silly expensive to refit said trailer or even buy a new to me one.
a well maintained 22 should bring 2-3 times what he's asking...now, absent of any personal property liens or past due yard fees..might be worth a look as a project boat.
or not...
02-11-2008 02:23 PM
Jeff_H $5000 for a J-22 is a real bargain. All J-22's are new enough that they should have an HIN number unless this boat was badly damaged on the transom in a collision.

J-22's often live tough lives, playing bumper car out on the race courses, bouncing around on trailers and so on. One this cheap should be checked out carefully. While a full blown survey may not be necessary for a simple boat like a J-22, it does make sense to have the hull and deck tapped out for delamination and check the keel to hull connection. Its amazing how well these boats hold up given the abuse that they can receive and they are pretty easy to repair, but still and all, delamination is a posibility that should be at least looked for. The other area to look at where they can have problems is at the sump where the keel attaches, there should be no movement between the keel and the hull or at the keel stub.

Without speculating on motives or casting aspersions on the seller, as I have read the various comments, at the heart of it, it is important to determine that the seller has proof of ownership; a clear title or registration and will execute a proper bill of sale that warrants that the boat is being sold free of leins and other liabilities. (you can down load a pretty good bill of sale form from the US Coast Guard/Homeland Security- Documentation site)

A boat like a J-22 may never have been registered since some states do not require registration on boats under 7 meters that do not have engines. That said, most States require some form of sales tax when the boat is sold from owner to owner, and it may be that tax that the seller has failed to paid. I'm not sure whether that is relevant to you (a call to your local DNR should tell you that). You will be responsible for paying any taxes and registration fees when you buy the boat.

Good luck, These are great little boats.

Jeff
02-11-2008 02:04 PM
eggman2001
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOLAsailing View Post
As for the boat. It is what it is - though I would check it out extremely carefully (as I would any boat). Of course, a P30 for less than $5000 is likely to have some significant defects. The core is probably rotten in places, it likely needs new standing and running rigging, and the sails are probably barely functional - not to mention a host of cosmetic defects; for example, the non-skid gelcoat on aging Pearson 30's is often thin and will show the underlying white gelcoat in places. There's only so much you can hide with a boat as straight-forward and mechanically simple as a Pearson 30 (great boat, by the way).
FYI, it's a J22, not a P30. At first I thought that I didn't want to get it surveyed (because of the cost), but I'm rethinking that now (amongst other things).
02-11-2008 01:48 PM
chucklesR Cash or Check doesn't really matter- they only limit your ability to prove the transaction occured and or stop payment. Could be the seller is just stupid, could be anything already mentioned here.

I'd have to say you should get a survey, and at a minimum check out the registration by any and all means possible (take it or a copy to the issuing agency and have them validate it). Check the HIN on the hull against the registration and the links posted previously.
If the seller is unwilling to do either of these two, run don't walk away - then report him to what ever agency is responsible.

Think of it as a car sale where the seller wants cash, won't show you a title and or registration until you put the cash in his hand, and won't let you start the car, take a test drive or look under the hood. Would you buy the car just because it's a good deal?
Hell no.
02-11-2008 01:45 PM
danjarch My 2 cents. Your not about to have it surveyed I'm guessing. There isn't a broker involved. If you can prove he's been trying to sell it for a year then that tells you there is something wrong. Figure how much you want to gamble and low ball. Tell him you can give three grand if he wants cash and make sure he shows up with a tittle and a resent regestration. Take a big friend along with you to the meeting and be ready to make a gut call and walk away if the documents don't look right or the fellow is really antsy. I deal in cash often but if its not common for you, you might find your to antsy to really look at everything well.
02-11-2008 01:05 PM
eherlihy ...Also, I have a bridge in Brooklyn New York, that I can give you a great deal on. The first $5000 takes it. But, only if you pay cash.
02-11-2008 12:48 PM
NOLAsailing
Quote:
Wow. Try to focus here, folks!

It's not about wanting cash -- there's nothing wrong with that.

It's about lying to the potential buyer, and incorporating an admitted fraud on the government in that same lie. That's two layers of dishonesty ON THE SURFACE! If that doesn't send up red flags, you're idiots.

Of course, people like you used to keep me in business before I retired. People think lawyers are parasites, but it's idiots like you who are the first to ask us to sue the lying bastards who ripped you off. I'm not talking about the original poster here, but the several who keep justifying the seller's behavior. Get real.
You get real. There's no possibility of determining the seller's intention from the limited information posted here. It may be a scam or an indication of his dishonesty. It may be a misunderstanding of tax laws. It may be an excuse to insist on a cash deal. There's nothing idiotic about considering a number of reasons for his insistence on cash. I understand your point and I disagree.

As for the boat. It is what it is - though I would check it out extremely carefully (as I would any boat). Of course, a P30 for less than $5000 is likely to have some significant defects. The core is probably rotten in places, it likely needs new standing and running rigging, and the sails are probably barely functional - not to mention a host of cosmetic defects; for example, the non-skid gelcoat on aging Pearson 30's is often thin and will show the underlying white gelcoat in places. There's only so much you can hide with a boat as straight-forward and mechanically simple as a Pearson 30 (great boat, by the way).

Ensure the title/CG documentation is valid and proceed with due diligence. It won't make you an idiot - regardless of whether you buy the boat or pass on it.
02-11-2008 12:39 PM
Gramp34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aasem View Post
It's about lying to the potential buyer, and incorporating an admitted fraud on the government in that same lie. That's two layers of dishonesty ON THE SURFACE! If that doesn't send up red flags, you're idiots.
Let's see.

His first lie is that he's asking for cash to avoid taxes. This is an obvious lie since private individuals don't pay taxes on sales of personal property.

His second lie is that he's trying to scam the government by not paying his legally due taxes.

But if he really is "an admitted fraud on the government", then he must be liable for taxes on this sale. Therefore he was telling the truth about wanting cash because of taxes.

But since we seem to have it on good authority (a retired lawyer...) that his statement about avoiding taxes was a lie, then he must not be "an admitted fraud on the government", and the second lie is not a lie.

Ow! My head hurts!

Cheers,

Tim
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