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Sensible Cruising

83K views 156 replies 54 participants last post by  SV Dayenu 
#1 · (Edited)
"...concerning the Chinese and Sandwich Islanders"

There is a book by Don Casey entitled “Sensible Cruising, the Thoreau Approach”. I had already owned my boat for several years and developed my own ideas about cruising by the time I first read it. I don’t agree entirely with everything Casey has to say; today, I would expand his minimum requirements to include things like a handheld GPS unit for example because two such units are less costly and far more accurate than a cheap sextant and the necessary tables, and let’s face it: How many people nowadays have the math skills to perform the calculations without electronic help? But Casey and co-author Lew Hackler make some good points about when to stop buying and installing new gear and dreaming about a bigger and better boat and get going.

By way of disclaimer I acknowledge that my thinking has been strongly influenced by H.D.T. if not Casey (One of my favorite authors BTW). It is my opinion that too much stuff just gets in the way of the basic enjoyment of life. How many people do you know that are slaves to their possessions and don’t even know it? It is a sad thing that so many people never fulfill their dream of cruising because they never quite have enough stuff or a big enough boat to hold it all.

So let us discuss on this thread the minimum requirements for successful cruising, short term and long term. I am not talking about sailing around the world in a peapod. Physical comfort and adequate supplies are, in my opinion, among the necessities, but I can state categorically that the right 26 or 27 footer is perfectly adequate, and in some cases ideal, for a couple to live and cruise in long-term. Also, let's not limit the discussion to gear, things you can buy. Consider skills, mindset, attitudes and other intangibles.

What would you consider the minimum requirements and where is the tipping point between sufficient and too much.

Malie ke kai
 
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#35 ·
Daw-gon-it... Priate

Now ya done it....Im going to have to gouge my eye out...
 
#36 ·
Hey Wombat. Had a ship mate on Endeavour we called "Fran the Gran". She was a tall ship junkie in her fifties, originally from Scotland living in OZ. Anyway, we got to talking on watch one time and I mentioned that I had visited Sidney during the late unpleasantness in Southeast Asia. She asked when. I told her, '68 and went on about what a good time I'd had and how friendly the girls were and how we had gone to the Motor Club in Sydney every night to, well, you know, soldiers on leave eh? She got this horrified look on her face:eek: and asked me what my rank had been. When I told her I had been a buck sergeant at the time she almost feinted from relief and said. "Oh, I only dated officers.":cool:

Old Fran led an interesting life. Retired, she traveled the world crewing on tall ships. Last time I saw her she was passing through Honolulu on her way to join a ship in New York (IIRC) for a tall ship race across the Atlantic.
 
#38 ·
Careful Vega

Your wife will be reading this..:)
 
#40 · (Edited)
No. HM Bark Endeavour. The replica of the ship Capt. James Cook sailed around the world on his first voyage of discovery in 1768. Awesome ship. The best of its kind by far.

Plumper,
There are two Endeavours. The one you are talking about 'the Young Endeavour' was a gift to Oz from Britain at the time of our bicentenary in 1988. She nows calls Newcastle home. We were moored across the way from her when we sailed into Newcastle year before last. Good looking thing but not a replica.



NE is the black hull off to the right of the pic not the white dreamboat which was in Newcastle (Australia not UK of course) for some repairs and maintenance.

The Endeavour herself is probably one of only two positive things you can say about disgraced businessman and all round ****e head Allan Bond, he of Australia II fame which was of course the second. She is indeed a fine thing.
Sydney used to have a number of square riggers, James Craig, Endeavour, Bounty being the most famous. Bounty has recently been sold to some Chinese investors who have moved her to Hong Kong. Endeavour is now owned by the National Maritime Museum and is berthed in Darling Harbour near the Craig. (or at least she was last time I looked).

Its actually somewhat ironic that Endeavour is based in Sydney as Cook sailed straight past the place with nary a sideways glance.

Vega,
What was it the English used to say about you septics during WWII ? Overpaid , over sexed and over here ? Something like that. Actually I think it's fair to say that despite the opposition to the war itself, American servicemen have always received a warm welcome here. Even an old peacenik like me is likely to be out to welcome in visiting US ships and I don't mean with protest banners flying.

ps - I could be absolutely anal about it and remind you that when he commanded Endeavour Cook was but a lieutenant. :p But I won't. :)

Thanks again for this thread.
 
#45 ·
Sprung !! Other than the comfort aspect it's really not a great result though. The foam itself is far from UV stable. We've had 18 months out of those and they need replacing.

We are in the process of having new sail and bimini covers made and I'm thinking maybe to have covers for the foam made also. Just a simple tube with velcro fastening. It would look so much better, be more comfortable and solve the deterioration problem.

Which reminds me.

Years ago it seemed that almost every cruising boat sported lee clothes on the cockpit lifelines. You still see them but they appear to be nowhere near as popular these days. Any thoughts, anyone, on why this is so ? Or indeed is it so ?
 
#46 ·
Years ago it seemed that almost every cruising boat sported lee clothes on the cockpit lifelines. You still see them but they appear to be nowhere near as popular these days. Any thoughts, anyone, on why this is so ? Or indeed is it so ?
I think it has to do with stuff, BBQ grills, propane tanks, solar panels, all take up space and need some way to attach to the rail. Then you really don't want to block any views with a lee cloth of that shiny Magma grill.
 
#51 ·
I always get in trouble talking about sea cloths in the UK. Here they are called "dodgers," and what a yank would call a dodger is called a "sprayhood." :)

Also, you have a pushpit at the stern, and in most cases the boom vang is a kicker.

Finally, don't even dream of calling a floating dock anything but a pontoon.
 
#52 ·
I'm gradually outfitting my boat for the eventual cruise and agree with the 'going small and simple' approach. I like the idea of having a handheld GPS, or two, or three, or four, as a system independent of the ship's power. I'll be adding this to my list of purchases for the boat.

One of the things I'll be installing this year on my boat is a wind-vane, a fleming 301 global minor, which I got for a very good deal. I don't see windvanes around much and I'm not sure if most of the boats in my area don't cruise far or if everyone is using electric autopilots instead. I use the electric autopilot now and then but I wouldn't want to trust it to keep up with my boat's yawing on a bad sea or use all that electricity. I've also sailed a fair amount with sheet to tiller arrangements, which work to varying degrees, but I think of this as more of a back-up plan if my windvane breaks.

I like having my systems as simple and as manual as possible, with back-ups and spares. My boat is rigged with an inner forestay and running back-stays to add extra sail arrangements and mast support if needed. New oversized rigging. I have a GPS unit and a chartplotter, depthsounder, VHF (with DSC interfaced with both GPS units) and lighting (interior, deck level nav., masthead nav., spreader work light, steaming) for my electrical draws, which I think is fairly modest. One 60W solar panel and four 6v batteries keep up with all this fine. I also have manual charts and all the tools and use them. Manual lavac head. Alcohol stove. Lots of anchoring gear. No refridgerator. No internal engine; I have a small 6hp outboard (two tanks, two fuel lines) for docking and getting home without any wind. It seems like a lot of people spend A LOT of time and money on their engines and maintenence. Jordan drogue. Life raft. And lots of other stuff.

Most importantly, I get out there and sail as much as the short Maine season will allow. I love to read and plan but I'm a 'hands-on' kinda guy and getting out on the water in my boat is the best way to apply what I've learned and improve my skills.

Congratulations of your most recent passage, Vega, and thanks for letting me know that my modest boat and approach to outfitting isn't unseaworthy or dated.
 
#54 ·
I'm gradually outfitting my boat for the eventual cruise and agree with the 'going small and simple' approach. I like the idea of having a handheld GPS, or two, or three, or four, as a system independent of the ship's power. I'll be adding this to my list of purchases for the boat.

One of the things I'll be installing this year on my boat is a wind-vane, a fleming 301 global minor, which I got for a very good deal. I don't see windvanes around much and I'm not sure if most of the boats in my area don't cruise far or if everyone is using electric autopilots instead. I use the electric autopilot now and then but I wouldn't want to trust it to keep up with my boat's yawing on a bad sea or use all that electricity. I've also sailed a fair amount with sheet to tiller arrangements, which work to varying degrees, but I think of this as more of a back-up plan if my windvane breaks.

I like having my systems as simple and as manual as possible, with back-ups and spares. My boat is rigged with an inner forestay and running back-stays to add extra sail arrangements and mast support if needed. New oversized rigging. I have a GPS unit and a chartplotter, depthsounder, VHF (with DSC interfaced with both GPS units) and lighting (interior, deck level nav., masthead nav., spreader work light, steaming) for my electrical draws, which I think is fairly modest. One 60W solar panel and four 6v batteries keep up with all this fine. I also have manual charts and all the tools and use them. Manual lavac head. Alcohol stove. Lots of anchoring gear. No refridgerator. No internal engine; I have a small 6hp outboard (two tanks, two fuel lines) for docking and getting home without any wind. It seems like a lot of people spend A LOT of time and money on their engines and maintenence. Jordan drogue. Life raft. And lots of other stuff.

Most importantly, I get out there and sail as much as the short Maine season will allow. I love to read and plan but I'm a 'hands-on' kinda guy and getting out on the water in my boat is the best way to apply what I've learned and improve my skills.

Congratulations of your most recent passage, Vega, and thanks for letting me know that my modest boat and approach to outfitting isn't unseaworthy or dated.
SS,
Couple of points. While a handheld GPS may well be free of the boats electrical system be aware that the damn things chew up batteries like nobodies business. We have an extension lead to a cigarette lighter socket for ours and it's something I'd recommend. Ours is an old Garmin 72 and maybe the newer models are more efficient in power use but we do seem to go through an awful lot of batteries unless we plug it in. We do have an installed unit as well but rarely use it while coastal. It's a handy thing to have at chart table and easier to read than a handheld.

Windvanes do seem to be the most logical self steering gear. While we don't have one on Raven I'd definitely install one if we going off cruising in her. Autopilots are good when you have little or no wind and/or under power but the noise is a nuisance no doubt as is the power consumption. We are lucky in that Raven will steer herself quite happily with just an octupus strap on the wheel provided of course the sail trim is just right. I'm told , but have no experience in the matter, that windvanes are problematic on a centre cockpit vessel, but I believe this is to do with the mess of lines having to come over the aft cabin and access to the gear itself.

Raven does have an inboard diesel and I'd not change that for quids. Utterly reliable, cheap to run and quite frankly maintenance costs are not a big issue. One thing I like about the smaller boat is the smaller engine and our Bukh 24hp is about as big as you can go and still hand start easily.

I don't understand anyone having an alcohol stove. Both my keelboats had them when purchased and I do not regret one iota dispensing with the damn things. Give me gas anyday. Our system is simple but effective. We have a pressure gauge on the gas line which is an instant indicator of a leak and no solonoid. Ok so that means climbing out to turn off the gas when you finish cooking but for me that's no big deal.

One question I have however and this is for anyone with an under 35'er. Where do you stow your dinghy ? On our PB (28') we had a glass thing that was lashed to the foredeck where it was an absolute pain in the butt. Unfortunately she didn't have any storage compartments large enough for an inflatable so when we eventually acquired one it had to either live again lashed to the foredeck or it moved between the foward cabin and the aft quarterberth. It annoyed the hell out of me and having a cockpit locker on Raven (34') that is big enough for an infatable is an absolute boon.
 
#53 ·
One thing no one has mentioned yet is rope. Can't have too much in my opinion. It would be ideal if one type and size would work for every application but, unfortunately, on my boat at least, this is not the case. The size of the halyards is limited by the maximum size of the masthead sheaves to 3/8 inch rope. While plenty strong enough for any application except possibly anchoring and mooring lines, that is just too small to be comfortable in the hands for sheets and downhauls etc. so I wind up with 3/8" halyards and sheets of 7/16" braided polyester (Dacron), as are the spare jib halyard and the topping lift which can double as a spare main halyard. Besides the lines rigged, we carry an extra 100 feet of 3/8" and 200 feet of 7/16" braided Dacron and 200 feet of 1/4 inch Amsteel(Dyneema) for emergency standing rigging repairs. We also carry a spool of 3/16 polyester for lashings and other miscellaneous uses around the boat.

Anchor rodes and dock lines are of 1/2 inch three-strand nylon. We also carry a thirty foot pendant with a nylon thimble and shackle on one end and an eye splice on the other plus four fifty foot lengths and one additional heavy anchor rode, 300 feet, all of 5/8" three strand nylon. That is in addition to 100 feet of 3/8 inch proof coil chain plus two fifty foot lengths of 1/4 inch chain for the 1/2 inch anchor rodes. (We carry two 10kg Bruces and two Danforths)

I'm sure some of you are laughing and shaking your heads but I do this for a reason. During our unexpectedly long Pacific crossing, our halyards chafed nearly through at the masthead. I had to end for end the sheets due to chafe and replace the jib tack downhaul with an old sheet which nearly chafed through by the time we reached land. As for the ground tackle and mooring lines; I've been through two hurricanes. The morning the sirens go off is no time to discover you don't have enough rope to secure the boat.

Ideally, I'd have everything rigged with 1/2 inch braided dacron and buy a 600 foot spool of the stuff. But that would require major modifications to the masthead to accomodate the sheaves and all the blocks on the boat would have to be replaced. 3/8 inch would be strong enough for everything except anchor lines and would fit all of the blocks and sheaves but it's just to small for my hands so as long as I have this boat I guess I'm stuck with at least three kinds of rope for rigging.:(

Lest some "Yachtsman" get the urge to correct me on calling it rope. I learned as a trainee on a square rigger that it's rope until you put it to work. A coil in the locker is always rope until you reeve it through a block or attach it to the clew of the jib. Then it becomes a line. :)
 
#55 ·
When I'm in situations where I don't want my dink on the davits, I put it on the foredeck. Transom over the forward hatch, in front of the dorade boxes, then lashed down using the slotted toe rail. Weight and length being the main reasons for going with the Walker Bay 8. It fits quite nicely and still leaves enough room to go forward (though not much), if necessary.
 
#56 ·
PB,
That's what we used to do before we went inflatable. On the PB that left less than enough room on the foredeck on Raven just enough room. Either or it's not a situation I'm all that happy with. Furler does mean that there is less reason to go forward but I'm not all that happy clambering over a dink to get to e.g the anchor.
 
#57 ·
Wombat,

While it is true that a hendheld GPS will use up batteries, Why would you leave it on at sea? Once the position is checked, it takes about three minutes, turn it off. We checked our position no more than three times a day crossing the pacific and only had the gps on for more than a few minutes at a time while approaching Cape Flattery. Our primary unit is a Garmin GPS 76. We changed the batteries twice in 55 days and put in fresh as we entered the Strait of juan de Fuca because of the fog. As my flight instructor admonished me: "Don't stare at the instruments, look where you're going!" :eek:

Windvanes: Depends on the boat. We decided we don't need one because Lealea proved that she will hold a course for days at a time without attention, as you mentioned, given proper sail trim and a shock cord on the tiller.

Alcohol cooker: To each his own. Laura does most of the cooking and she likes the simple little two burner Origo we have. I can tell you I haven't suffered from lack of tasty meals either:)

Dingy: Yep, its a problem all right:confused:

Malie ke kai
 
#58 ·
Wombat,

While it is true that a hendheld GPS will use up batteries, Why would you leave it on at sea? Once the position is checked, it takes about three minutes, turn it off. We checked our position no more than three times a day crossing the pacific and only had the gps on for more than a few minutes at a time while approaching Cape Flattery. Our primary unit is a Garmin GPS 76. We changed the batteries twice in 55 days and put in fresh as we entered the Strait of juan de Fuca because of the fog. As my flight instructor admonished me: "Don't stare at the instruments, look where you're going!" :eek:

Malie ke kai
Answer to your question is that our log is shot and I use the handheld instead. Need to replace the log but it's a match for the depth sounder and I'm kind of waiting for the depth sounder to die as well so that I have an excuse to replace them both. They are old Navico, long discontinued and no longer supported since the takeover (by Simrad I think it was).
 
#61 ·
SS,
I can't find any info on the Bristol 27 so have no idea of the hull design but the reality is that most sailing vessels will self steer with the right sail trim, indeed I have less trouble with Raven (fin keel, spade rudder, no skeg) and our PB (28' full keel cutaway forefoot). It is of course possible that the reason for that is experience.
I'd urge you to have a loook at Alex's (Giulietta) sailing videos. One of them covers steering without a rudder and if that speed machine can be made to self steer then anything can do it.
 
#60 · (Edited)
Vega

Quote: As my flight instructor admonished me: "Don't stare at the instruments, look where you're going!"

Unless your IFR...then you better be staring at thoes intruments!!! Ive owned two planes...;)

______________
Quote: Vega, I like the idea of amsteel for standing rigging replacement.

I dont.. whats wrong with the real thing...and stay locks are fast and easy and you already have them?? If you have a hanked on jib I doubt it will last very long...
 
#67 ·
Truckers hitch is one of the best hitches because it is so simple and sets up a two to one system and allows for tensioning to much higher loads than is normally possible, especially if you pull the bitter end through a cam or camming knot. I'm a rock climber as well as sailor so I carry around lengths of para-cord to practice knots with when I'm bored. Great mental exercise, especially if you start tying knots blind, a very useful skill.
 
#68 ·
lots to consider all right.

boat lenght certainly is important but unfortunately it is important only to you! I was thrilled and happy with a 16 ft Wayfarer for years. Now a 34 seems about right. My charter experience leans me to over 30 feet and sailing shorthanded about 32 feet. there is room below and the deck is short enough for a scamper to untangle something but long enough to stow things on and to get rid of that corky ride you get in little sailboats.

Things I have come to appreciate are a tiller or auto pilot, GPS, radar, and a good Antenna (yes, antenna and connections) on a modern VHF which has the digital selective code and panic button. Charts that never see the cockpit: nav table only--so they stay good and don't go overboard. I also have come to appreciate blown out lines, whether they are from the head or galley or related to engine cooling, and a simple steering rig, I like tillers.

The boat has to be able to lock down in a blow, and that means the rigging as well as your dinghy. The lockers belowdecks esp. under the salon seats need wingnuts on them to prevent them dumping in wild water. Somehow you have to be able to hotbunk in the aft cabin because if you get into it the veeberth is good for stowage and little more. Someone who can turn out decent food without chundering is valuable on a long trip.

As for personnel, you need folks that can look, see, and do. You are going to be exhausted if you are constantly consulted on sail trim and navigation. Also a sense of teamwork, with a little forgiveness for screwing up, which you will all take turns at.

I prioritize as follows: firstly it's the wind and water you are in... then the size and condition of the boat and its rigging for that water. Then it is about the crew and their physical/mental shape and experience. Finally it is about the safety of the passengers. Put these in any other priority and you are going to have a tale to tell.
 
#71 ·
Let's get back to autopilots. . . .

I have to assume that some posts here are still using autopilots powered by steam. Things like high power consumption and all that noise and how do you control the yaw off the wind, whatever. What kit are you guys using :confused:

Your autopilot should be used when the boat is properly set up so that they're not in a contest. It isn't supposed to "drive" the boat. It's only supposed to make minor course adjustments. Then it will learn the sea-state as it works and course adjustments will become less and less until they are almost imperceptible. If yours doesn't do this then it's either archaic or you're doing something wrong.

We have a Raymarine ST6001. It can only be heard if you put your ear against the bulkhead it is mounted on. After a few hours on a course the wheel twitches every now and then and if you're not watching you'd not notice. While it is not twitching it uses no power. It holds a proper course in strong wind, light air, down wind, on the wind, no wind, following sea, huge sea. I can't recall time when I had to take over from the autopilot and on those occasions when I chose to, l couldn't hold the course anywhere near as well.

Nuff said, I'd never cruise without one. Nah! I'd never go out daysailing without one :p

On wind pilots I've not sailed with a Fleming, I understand they have revolutionised wind pilots. I sailed for years with an Aries and while it was OK, I don't miss tripping over those control lines. It'll be a cold day in hell when I swap my autopilot for any windpilot. I may have both one day but never just a windpilot.

As for wheel pilots, I had one once, if that is my only choice I guess it would be a windpilot or I'd be hand steering from here on in. I wouldn't have another one of them on my boat irrespective of it's size.

And while I'm throwing cats amongst pigeons, I now cruise a 44 ft boat and hold the view that the people who cruise 28 feet are either trying to prove a point or can't afford the upgrade :D . I can't even conceptualise fitting food, water, clothing and fuel for any decent length voyage into 28 feet. The lists of stuff that are apparently packed into these little vessels (see above) can't leave a lot of space for the people.:) And our 44 feet is easily managed by me and my partner.

Just my own choices . . . . .

Andre
 
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#72 ·
Andre, we've pretty well decided to go with a windvane to tiller offshore (bypassing the hydraulics), and with an autopilot under power. We understand that 9/10ths of the "battle" with an autopilot is proper sail trim for point of sail in the first place, mainly because it is easy to trim a well-found boat to steer itself in most cases with sails alone anyway...even a fin-keeler (see Giu's video on the topic).

Having a windvane to a tillerhead PLUS an autopilot to a hydraulic ram pushing a transom-hung, keel-mounted rudder gives us two entirely independent means of self-steering...and no buried quadrant, frayed cables or rudder post tube to crack open.

I've steered under tiller alone and while it's a tad more Viking than on my smaller (tiller-only) 33 footer, it's not unreasonable if the hydraulics went and the vane fell off...
 
#73 · (Edited)
Andre:

About your auto pilot...I looked up the specks it says it's for up to 20K displacement...arnt you more then that?...Im at 30K on a 41' Irwin..
I have cable wheel steering so I will have to go with some other model like the 10X ( 4 grand though *eyks ) and they say up to 22K displacement?
Anyway from your experience is this an underrating on there part and will work for bigger boats?

Ps: I can See where the PO had a wheel mount auto on my boat now gone...so they are really that bad as you say? I have zero auto pilot experience...I was just going to go that route..
 
#82 ·
About your auto pilot...I looked up the specks it says it's for up to 20K displacement...arnt you more then that?...Im at 30K on a 41' Irwin..
SR - we weigh in at a stated tare of 26k(lbs) in cruising form we probably gross out at about 30k (fuel, water, beer, etc). We sailed this boat in really heavy weather (downwind 7- 8 knots under bare poles) and our autopilot never wavered.

We have friends that have a 41 foot steel boat loaded with gear and he reckons he grosses 14.5 tons (metric so about 32k lbs). He has the same autopilot and swears by it after 25000 miles of cruising.

So has Raymarine undervalued their autopilot? In a word, yes.

And by the way, we also both have wheel to cable steering.

TDW - we had some form of Raytheon wheel pilot on an earlier boat. Gave us never ending issues with belt adjustments, slipping "out of gear", fluxgate calibrations going awry, several times it failed altogether and had to be repaired by electronics boffins. Eventually it let me down on a long voyage across the Indian Ocean (zip support) and I ended up hand-steering for 3500 miles singlehanded. :mad: You have no idea the bad taste that left for me. NEVER again a wheel pilot for me. If you're interested I could probably give you a fix from my log where I deep-sixed that mother although I recollect the water was about 7000 metres deep :)

I'd be interested to hear from Fleming windpilot owners. We have one fellow in Auckland who reckons this thing is the Holy Grail of wind pilots but then again when you've just parted with a bucket full of dinero that would be standard response.

Andre
 
#76 ·
Nice thread, once again you guys have showed me how much I don't know.
My little costal cruising, always with in 30 -50 miles of the next port, isn't in the same league of what you are discussing here. Thanks for all the insightful information.
 
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