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Bluewater defined?

68K views 45 replies 23 participants last post by  Dan0 
#1 ·
Are Freedom Yachts considered bluewater? It seems that a "bluewater" boat is always judged on its'' displacement and full keel, yet I have seen some Freedoms with shoal keels. Am a I interpreting the word bluewater too loosely? I have a Beneteau that is probably considered coastal yet it displaces more than some of the Freedom Yachts. Help me to understand who defines the notation of a boat as being bluewater?

Thanks,
dch
 
#27 ·
I want STRENGTH in an offshore boat. Strength to withstand a number of accidental gybes or many sudden gales in the middle of many nights. Strength to hit an object such as a container, or as we have done a floating fuel tank, and not sink the boat. Strength so that if something wraps the prop it won't pull the shaft out of the boat. Strength in terms of small ports through bolted, batteries tied down securely. I want a boat that will go upwind in force 8 winds without an engine. I REALLY want to be able to get off a lee shore in dangerous weather. I want a boat with a belowdecks rigged for safety: small open areas, secure bunks, many handholds, table bolted to the deck, fiddle bars. I want redundant equipment: more than one water tank, more than one source of electricity, more than one propane tank. I want an onboard space where I can repair broken things like water pumps. I want a watertight boat when upside down. Dodge Morgan had a companionway hatch on "American Promise"that dogged shut. I understand that. If one is thinking clearly, a proper ocean boat would not be satisfactory in inland waters. That's why they are virtually impossible to find. Andrew "Niketti" B-29/105
 
#29 ·
While knockdowns are not tolerated well by multihulls, they have a much higher initial stability and that can often prevent the problems that lead to a knockdown or capsize in a monohull.

If you've ever seen a monohull keelboat sitting broadsides to some small waves, you'll sometimes see the boat starts rolling far more than you would expect, since the waves may be contributing to the rolling motion of the boat each time they hit it. The much higher initial stability numbers of most cruising multihulls means that they won't even start rolling at all.
 
#31 ·
this coming from the man looking to become a tornado magnet...
 
#32 ·
In my opinion the most important feature of a ship sailing in the ocean is weight. Not because weight in itself is important, but because weight is important considering payload. To do the most popular trip among Europeans, particularly sun-hungry Scandinavians like my self, the trip from The Canary Islands to the Caribbeans take 3 - 4 weeks. That means a lot of fresh water, food, diesel, tools and materials to do some repairs, etc. The ship must take this payload without significally changing the wet area.

A frigidaire may be important on such a long trip. That means facilities for producing electricity, like windmill, generator etc. Sleep is very important, that means the ship must be comfortable enough to secure sleep.

My personal choice is a 37 feet rebuilt fishing-ship, with a 16 metric tons displacement, built for fishing in the North Sea/North Atlantic. The rig is a gaffrig with a jibtopsail, jib, foresail and topsails above the gaffs. In all 7 sails. With the sailarea distributed among 7 sails, the rig itself is quite low and and the center of gravity accordingly low.

Granted this rig is not the best for fast sailing, particularly by the wind, but in my opinion, the best for traveling. I have not been able to make the ship heel more than 5°, in 30 kts wind, rather it drifts sideways. The ship needs around 25 kts wind to reach hullspeed. If the wind gets stronger than 25 kts, than I reduce sailarea accordingly, usually starting with the topsails, then the jibtopsail, then jib, then mizzen.
 
#33 ·
Love to see some pictures of your fine boat...:)

And maybe a few of the old country...:)

In my opinion the most important feature of a ship sailing in the ocean is weight. Not because weight in itself is important, but because weight is important considering payload. To do the most popular trip among Europeans, particularly sun-hungry Scandinavians like my self, the trip from The Canary Islands to the Caribbeans take 3 - 4 weeks. That means a lot of fresh water, food, diesel, tools and materials to do some repairs, etc. The ship must take this payload without significally changing the wet area.

A frigidaire may be important on such a long trip. That means facilities for producing electricity, like windmill, generator etc. Sleep is very important, that means the ship must be comfortable enough to secure sleep.

My personal choice is a 37 feet rebuilt fishing-ship, with a 16 metric tons displacement, built for fishing in the North Sea/North Atlantic. The rig is a gaffrig with a jibtopsail, jib, foresail and topsails above the gaffs. In all 7 sails. With the sailarea distributed among 7 sails, the rig itself is quite low and and the center of gravity accordingly low.

Granted this rig is not the best for fast sailing, particularly by the wind, but in my opinion, the best for traveling. I have not been able to make the ship heel more than 5°, in 30 kts wind, rather it drifts sideways. The ship needs around 25 kts wind to reach hullspeed. If the wind gets stronger than 25 kts, than I reduce sailarea accordingly, usually starting with the topsails, then the jibtopsail, then jib, then mizzen.
 
#35 ·
With all due repect to TJalfur, I think that it is a huge mistake to say that "the most important feature of a ship sailing in the ocean is weight." In and of itself, weight does nothing good for a boat; In and of itself weight does not add strength, it does not add seaworthiness, it does not add carrying capacity, it does not add seaworthiness, it just adds higher stresses and makes a boat harder to handle.

While it is important to have adequate displacement to be able to carry the gear, consumables, and spares to make passages,and to have adequate structural strength and adequate ballasting to stand up to its rig, any weight beyond that is detrimental to the boats prime mission which from my perspective is to sail efficiently.

Traditionally the rule of thumb has been cited as roughly 2 1/2 to 5 long tons of displacement per person. These days that number has crept up as we have become increasing dependent on more sophisticated equipment to operate our boats. Ideally, from a motion comfort, seaworthiness and motion comfort standpoint, that weight should be spread over as long a waterline length as is practical and still achieve adequate structural and ballasting capacities.

Then it comes down to hull shape.

Jeff
 
#37 ·
With all due respect to Jeff, weight does have it's advantages. While I would not classify it as the most important factor, the heavier displacement boat per length will in general be more sea-kindly. And slower. (g)
 
#38 ·
And be as wet as a half tide rock as Ted Brewer once said
 
#39 ·
Obviously I am writing slower than I think. My point is only that on long trips like crossing the Atlantic Ocean, one need (or at least I need) to bring along food, water, diesel, spareparts, tools etc. If the boat is lightweighted, the freeboard will diminish and the wet area will become larger when the payload is big enough. This is by the way the reason why fishing ships seldom have any accidents towards the fishing place, but more often on the way home, because of to much payload.

A heavier boat can carry more weight without changing its stability.

I do not mean that a heavier boat is advantageous in any circumstance.
 
#40 ·
I think these discussions often go around in circles because of the way that we come to define them. Perhaps this will clarify my point. It takes a certain amount of displacement to support the boat and crew. If we have two boats of equal dry load (meaning empty tanks, and lockers etc) displacement, generally the boat with the longer waterline will carry a larger percentage of its weight in full load capacity. Obviously there is a limit to how long an equal weight boat becomes before the boat ceases to be structurally suitable, but withing a reasonable range the longer boat of equal length will offer a gentler motion, a more easily driven hull and so a smaller sail plan making it easier to handle, and will perform better as well.

And By the same token the cost to build and the cost to maintain is larger proportionate to displacement rather than length.

So while we may rightly say that if we compare two boats of equal length, similar hull forms, rigs, and weight distributions and ballast ratios, the heavier one would be more comfortable (up to a point), when we talk about going distance cruising, I think we need to define the displacement that we need to carry of stuff, and then look for the longest boat that can safely do that (which means a lower L/D).

Jeff
 
#41 ·
This might add to the banter, but ever since I was a child, a "bluewater" vessel was a Ship, not a Boat. I was told that "boats go on ships."

The requirements I've always been taught was there are "suitable" offshore ships and "optimized" ones. It has been well proven that a good boat, properly handled, can endure terrible conditions offshore.

Further, a strong hull, strong hatches with dogs, and ports that are secure and tough (and not too big that you can't pump out the boat if you loose one in a storm) were points. Displacement weighs on the crew and master as a rolling and pitching ship is flat exhausting. A long, deep full length keel is also something I have seen a good property. the final things I would say make an offshore boat, besides design and crew, is the safety equipment and redundant systems.

I took a 28' with 9' of beam offshore this winter to Cayman from Houston, and then back to Cancun and back north along the coast to Houston. This included almost 6 days at drouge and heave-to in rain storms and high winds from that system that flooded the central USA.

Almost anything, In my opinion could make it offshore, but there are "optimized" designs that do better than others.
 
#42 ·
I do agree with Jeff that discussions like this one tend to move in circles. Often because definitions, values and priorities are not stated at the offset. Since Jeff shows a vast amount of knowledge conserning boatdesign, I still hope to reach an agreement, somehow.

In my opinion boatdesign is a compromise between several different and sometimes opposing considerations. Like stability, speed, comfort, payload etc. Not to forget the conditions in local waters where the boats berths.

One example may be the vikingship. This design was ideal for warring, looting and piracy some 1000 years ago. It could sail into shallow waters, it could be rowed if the wind was contrary, but it could not take any large payload.

Later trade became more profiting than piracy and this design was abandoned. When speed became important for transporting tea the Americans developed the clipper. When economy became important the steamships replaced the sailingships, because the payload pr. manpower was considerably smaller.

Boatdesign conserning leisureboats has also been influenced by handicap-rules in races. I believe many remembers designs like "The Drake" that had a very short LOA, but was designed to achieve a greater LOA when heeling due to the overhangs.

I must confess that in this discussion my own concern is to value comfort and stability above speed. My considerations started with the idea that I wanted the biggest boat I could get and still sail it alone. And of course within the limits of my financial capacity.

Since the marked for old wooden ships is very small, I got a 37 foot gaffrigged ketch for a very acceptable price. Of coursed an old wooden ship demands maintenance, but being retired that is only meaningful leisure time. An alternative to watching TV.

Now in this respect payload is important to me. I have 900 litres and diesel tank, 400 litres of watertank. Hot and cold pressure water and space for mechanical tools and carpeting (electrical power) tools and a generator to power them, spareparts and materials. This again is because my resources are limited and I cannot use a workshop anything happens, I must do all the repairs myself.

Also I should rephrase my statement. Not weight, but payload is in my opinion important, if that can bring an agreement closer?
 
#44 ·
Bluewater Defined

I am completely unqualified, but that has never stopped me before.
I found this most interesting.
Do a search for : joshua slocum society intl.org solo circumnavigators
Assuming all these people were not just lucky, their choice of boat may have slowed them down, but didn't seem to stop them.
 
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