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  Topic Review (Newest First)
03-31-2008 01:25 PM
cardiacpaul I'll almost bet that the water ingress came from....

rather than "wicking" up a stanchion
03-31-2008 11:07 AM
Originally Posted by JohnRPollard View Post
Sorry about the moisture in the core. How did the "bumpkinruster" look?
It didn't have one because (as any n00b should know ) the P36-2 was only available with a keelcutter rig...

Now, if I could only find a good condition gonckulator, I could fix this boat....

03-31-2008 10:43 AM
Originally Posted by eherlihy View Post
Thanks John!

Both the keel shrouds, and the rudder furler looked great. Only problem was the moisture in the core...

That's a good one!!

Sorry about the moisture in the core. How did the "bumpkinruster" look?
03-31-2008 10:02 AM
Originally Posted by JohnRPollard View Post
Very critical -- don't forget to check the keel shrouds...
Thanks John!

Both the keel shrouds, and the rudder furler looked great. Only problem was the moisture in the core...

03-29-2008 10:08 PM
JohnRPollard Very critical -- don't forget to check the keel shrouds...
03-29-2008 08:54 PM
eherlihy Also note the condition of the toe rail....
03-29-2008 08:53 PM
Halekai was RIGHT

Originally Posted by halekai36 View Post
The bast advice I can give is that you NEED to buy your own moisture meter AND learn how to use one correctly....Getting a surveyor out to a boat will cost you a minimum of about $400.00 $600.00 to tell you the thing has decks like sponges that you can;t feel.

With your own moisture meter, and some studying, about proper use, you can eliminate ten boats a day until you find one with dry decks, that you like, and are then willing to commit to a survey on..
As it turns out the BROKER brought this model Moisture meter with him, and showed me how to use it. All I can say is WOW were you right!
At one time, I actually considered buying one of these. However, I am not a surveyor, nor do I have any experience using one. So, the cost of buying one did not seem to be worth it to me. Then I wondered how they worked, so I started researching them a little. I found two great article about the limitations of them here and here. My research led me to believe that unless I was using it ALL THE TIME, it would likeley be a lightweight "doorstop" (reference to the second link) in my hands.
What bone head said that? (Oh, it was me )

Here is the image that caught my attention:

As I was poking around this spot, rather suspiciously, the broker showed up with the moisture meter, showed me how to use it, and started checking the deck for me. The moistrure meter worked similarly to the way that a stud finder works. You put it on a likely good portion of the deck, and slide it around to investigate other sections. The needle swings right to indicate moisture present.

Here he is checking the deck:

(Yes, that really is the broker! ) Note the needle is way right... The area highlighted in yellow showed a lot of water on the meter. In essence it penetrated at the front starboard stanchon, and worked it's way back along the toe rail, to the starboard gate. There was water intrusion on the port side as well.

Needless to say this looks like a project that I do not want to finance.

Thanks Halekai for great advice.

03-29-2008 12:48 PM
Jeff_H The following was written for a friend who was buying his first boat. The boat in question was out of the water . It included a rough set of items to check.

"You could almost write a book on how to perform a first overview of a boat. I am not sure that I can describe my detailed methodology but I generally try to go through a step by step process. The goal here is not to do a detailed survey to get a general understanding of the condition of the boat. You are really trying to size up the amount of use or abuse the boat has had. There are issues that I look for with a boat type that I have never seen before which is my not be the case here.

In a loose sort of way, here is how I would approach the first walkthrough. It is important to understand that the boat cannot be not be taken apart and so there will be no way to examine the various systems. If the boat is sitting out of the water you can see much of the boat, but you won’t be able to examine how the boat normally appeared when the owner was not on board. You won’t be able to run the various systems. A boat that has been out of the water all winter will probably look filthy. If the boat has been sitting for a long time they can take on a really rough appearance that would discourage a potential buyer. If the owner is there I tend to play up the dismal cosmetics issue as if it means something, but most fiberglass boats will clean up fairly easily and cheaply. But the fact that you both understand that the boat has been sitting for a long time and has been neglected can a significant part of setting a fair price. (i.e. it means that the current owner has had too high a price or the boat would have sold sooner and that the current owner has an asset that is just sitting there in need of attention. This has been a factor in quite a few of the boats that I have purchased over the years.)

One key thing thing you might want to look for is what I would call “fair Damage”. (That is my term) By this I mean that the description of the boat is such that you should have a right to have to expect the boat to be in a certain condition. If the description is such that your price is predicated on a boat that is structurally sound but in need of minor cosmetic repair then that is what you should expect when you arrive at the boat. If you find something that is unsound or if the cosmetics are such that repair goes beyond what can be reasonably expected, then this could have an impact on the final agreed upon sales price.

I think that it could work like this. With the broker or owner there you would identify things that appear to be legitimate concerns. It is important that you not nit pick but focus on things that have legitimate costs to correct. Still and all if the cosmetics are bad enough that a massive effort is required to put the boat in order them a general gripe is in order. If the gelcoat were shot or there were big repairs to the hull that would exceed what you could fairly include as damage beyond expectations or what I call “fair damage”. If you had negotiated the price in advance, and if it looks like “fair damage” excessive, you might want to try to renegotiate the price before survey or at least make the owner aware that if a survey agrees with your findings you will expect the purchase price to be altered accordingly. If the description of the boat says that it is in Bristol condition , I would think that should not expect much “fair damage”.

Bring a note pad and take notes. It is easy to forget things or play them down. My typical pre-survey review takes about an hour but may take as much as two if I run into problems or mysteries. I am not sure that I can write a meaningful list but here goes:

1. Deck
A. Walk around the deck, bouncing lightly on the ball of you feet. All decks have a little flex and you should be able to tell after a few minutes what is normal. If you hit a place that flexes a bit more than the rest, you should be able to feel whether this is a lighter built area in the boat or an area of delamination. Delamination feels like the parts of the deck are moving separately. It may also feel like the skin only oilcans until it hits the coring. You may be able to hear what’s going on by hitting the area with the flat of your hand. Essentially you would hear a dull, hollow, and less ringing sound where there is delamination. Be aware that bulkheads and hardware attachment can give some false readings.

B. Look for spider cracks. There may be minor spider cracking around fastenings but wholesale cracks, cracks radiating out of a the rail or near bulkhead positions or cracks that extend more than an inch or two may be significant.

C. Look for dings, dents and large repairs. Especially look for large repairs near the rail.

D. If the boat has a fair amount of teak or teak decks, examine the teak for cracking, splits and delamination of the plies or disconnection from the deck. If the teak has been varnished and the varnish has gone opaque or is missing in places this will require stripping and refinishing, a fairly big job. If the teak has been left exposed and the soft wood has been eaten out by strong chemicals or scrubbing, leaving a raised grain, this is a fairly substantive thing to correct requiring a lot of sanding and careful refinishing. This is “fair damage”.

E. Examine hatch covers and custom fiberglass parts for damage. One would have no reason to anticipate damage to these items and if badly damaged can monetarily effect the value of the boat.

F. Check deck hardware.
1. Winches: Turn each winch drum on the drum. They should turn easily and not feel gritty or bound up. Turn the drum by hand using your fingers in the handle socket. Turn both ways on two speeds, feeling and listening for the clicks of the pawls and any grinding of metal. It takes a surprisingly large amount of force to turn the drums this way so you may assist with your hand on the drum.
2. Look at the deck blocks for broken or oxidized sheaves. Make sure they turn freely. Blocks for any boat are quite expensive to replace. Look for bent, worn or missing parts.
3. Check rope clutches for operation and damage. This is hard to do if the lines are off the deck
G. Check anchor, anchor rode and windlass. Make sure that the handle is there and that the windlass works right. The lines should not be covered in rust as it attacks the nylon. The chain should not be a pile of rust since it will either be shot or need regalvanizing.
H. Check running lights for cracked or obscured lenses.

2 Spars and rigging:
A. In some ways it will be hard to inspect the mast and rigging if it is all disassembled. In some ways it is actually easier.
B Look at the stays and shrouds. They should be free of kinks and bends. They should be free of obvious rust. (If this is a salty environment, then crevice corrosion is a real threat.) Look at terminals for bends cracks and corrosion.
C Look at the running rigging for chafe, broken stands, etc. Rust stains on dacron or nylon line is a bad omen.
D. Check mast mounted hardware and sheaves for wear, damage and proper operation.
E. Closely examine areas around shroud and stay attachment, spreader bases, hardware, and holes in mast where halyards exit looking for small hair line cracks or signs of distortion. On fractional rig or cutters, this will often occur near the jibstay attachment point and jib/ spin. halyard exit box.

4. Sails:
A. I doubt there is much you can do here. Open a bag. If the sails are just stuffed crudely in a bag, unfolded, figure that they will be in poor condition because nothing kills the life of the sail like being crimped (except flogging a sail or sunlight) .

5. Structure:
A. Look for signs of movement wherever two surfaces meet. Look at the joint between the bulkheads and deck and bulkheads and hull (often mostly concealed)
B. Open the bilge and look for ring frames. Are they cracked or separated from the hull? Does the wooden elements look like they have been wet or oil soaked? Are there signs of rot?
C. Open the sail lockers and under berths and look at bulkheads and frames. Are they intact? Does the wooden elements look like they have been wet or oil soaked? Are there signs of rot?
D. Look at the keel bolts. Is there crushing of the glass or spider cracks near the bolts? The bolts should not be a massive pile of rust but a little staining is normal.
E. Are there signs of repairs near the keel? Different colored gelcoat or glass than found in lockers or signs of things being cut and reinstalled.
F. Examine the area around the mast step. Is the deck deflected? What supports the mast? How does it tie into the adjacent structure? Is there rust or rot? Are there signs of movement?

6. Rudder, Keel and keel joint:
A. Minor hairlines between the ballast keel and hull are normal, especially at the leading or trailing edge. Gaps or obvious signs of movement are not.
B. Look for repairs or crushing at the leading and bottom edge of the keel and at the hull in front of and behind the keel. Hull should be fair and free of hollows or humps.
C. Move the rudder by hand in all axis. There should be minimal play.

7. Interior:
A. You don’t need my help here except open all doors and hatches and look for signs of movement.
B. Look for signs of leaks and look at the condition of the woodwork. Is it beat up? Has the varnish failed? Has water gotten behind the varnish and stained the wood. Look for broken items. Is the Upholstery fabric in good shape, both top and bottom. Is the foam in the cushions in good shape? Sit or lie on the bunks and seats. Work your way up and down the seats. There is often an area that had more abuse than others but with modern fabrics may not show until you pit weight on it. Check the cabin-sole for larger than normal deflections especially around hatches and the edges.

8. Mechanical systems:
A. Normally I would say try everything. Turn it on and see if it works. With the boat decommissioned there is no way to do that. The best you can do is turn knobs and throw levers to feel if things feel stiff and unused or gritty.
B. Look for signs of corrosion or poorly performed repairs. Look for loose piping or things that have been cobbled together.
C. Check tanks for size, construction, leaks and hold downs.
D. Check for seacocks on all thru-hulls.

9. Electronics:
A Same as above, normally I would say try everything. Turn it on and see if it works. With the boat decommissioned there is no way to do that. The best you can do is turn knobs and throw levers to feel if things feel stiff and unused or gritty.
B Look for signs of corrosion or poorly performed repairs. Look for loose wiring or things that have been cobbled together.
C. Check batteries for accessibility and hold-downs.
D. Check 110 volt system for separate panel, sub-panel at inlet, polarity indicator and ground fault protected outlets.

10. Engine:
A Same as above, normally I would start it up. Shift gears see if it works. With a boat that is decommissioned there is no easy way to do that. The best you can do feel controls for action and look at the appearance of the engine. Plan on making some clear arrangement for testing the engine a part of the contract for purchase.
B Look for signs of corrosion, leaks, or poorly performed repairs. Look for loose wiring or things that have been cobbled together.
E. Check the stuffing box and shaft for signs of problems or a scared shaft.
F. Look at the exhaust port. Stick your finger in. It should not come out with a lot of soot or feel greasy.
G. Check the prop to see if it folds properly and smoothly. Check for excessive play in the blades, cutlass bearing and strut. Look for signs of scoring on the shaft. See what kind of prop it has, rigid, folding, feathering, two or three blade. A fixed three blade may be the wrong prop for what you want to do and a feathering three blade costs a fortune so think about whether you can live with what is there. .

11. Propane system:
A. Check that propane tank is in sealed locker that opens to atmosphere.
B. Check that the locker is vented top and bottom.
C. Check that there is a pressure gauge and **** off.
D. Make sure tank has overfill protection valve.
E. Make sure tank has electric solenoid wired to cut off at the stove.
F. Make sure that there is a manual and sniffer cut off switch at the stove.
G. Make sure the boat has a bilge blower if it has propane.
H. Check all hoses and wiring

That’s about it for now."
03-29-2008 11:49 AM
XTR Heheh, I've got a litmus test that eliminates almost all of them.

Is the bunk big enough for my 6"4" 220lb frame and still have room for my wife?

Reality seems to be that if I don't get a FFP (<-- Bob Perry term from SA) with an aft king I'm beat. Experience seems to dictate that I'm going to end up hiring a marine termite to do a custom job when I finally do get a boat.
03-29-2008 10:54 AM
eherlihy Thank you Barry!!!!

Your checklist is what I was trying to (re)create!


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