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Crimping versus Soldering

117K views 285 replies 73 participants last post by  desert rat 
#1 ·
I am not trying to bring up another very heated argument on this board, but I would like to tell anyone still soldering that almost without exception, EVERY soldered joint on the V-42 we have is corroding and failing. It may have taken close to 20 years to do it, but we did not find these issues on ANY of the crimped joints... NONE.

If that is not a first hand testimonial to crimp over solder, I do not know what is.

- CD
 
#110 ·
Stenn,
gawd luv ya man...

The ABYC stds have been stated, and they're 'etched in country gravy' meaning they're bound to change when the next best thing comes along.

Your last couple of paragraphs however, show me you're a man after my own thought process. thank you.

The VAST majority of sailors on this board are never going to do a single handed circumnavagation of Cape Horn.

I'm all for doing things right once, but I'm not going to buy a 50.00 crimper and terminals with some alloy that can only be mined by Sherpas by hand in the Himalyas.
Gimme a pair of dikes and some glue lined heat shrink tubing anyday.
 
#111 ·
#116 ·
Denver-

The bottom crimper in Halekai's post is for heat shrink terminals. The top one is for insulated non-heat shrink crimp terminals. You don't need both...but if you plan on using both kinds of terminals, having both would be nice.
 
#118 ·
hi guys, worked at schooner creek boatworks for a couple of years as the systems engineer/electrician on repairs and new installations/upgrades...

saildog has given the correct procedure- especially the marine grade heat shrink- Ancor makes it- it has a glue on the inside that will bubble out and really seals the connection, plus helps prevent flex. I do it for all but-splices and terminal ends.. ABYC says at least 1" onto wire from lugs which terminate battery cables too.

When I first started working, I asked about soldering because I came from a consumer electronics background- I was told that two things are at work: (1) is the safety of the mechanical bond...obviously the crimp just has more material involved in the connection and allows for more movement than solder- the solder with antimony etc forms more of a crystal than a metal and is therefore not a flexible material... but as I'm sure we've all seen on boats the wire strands broken at the crimped end- usually on a spade terminal but sometimes on the wires butt-spliced running wild on the boat. We could not have greater than about an 8" free run an anything and that was max max- a wire or hose and wire bundle might be approved to span something but always with support from a nearby surface... flex, solder or crimp is bad! (2) is dissimilar metals leads to galvanic corrosion... the joint and surrounding metals will be leached of electrons/molecules until the molecular lattice just fall apart... anyway, i think i worked on boats too long, lol, cheers!
 
#120 ·
CE... Chemical Engineering? Certified Electrical? I am sorry but I am not familiar with that abbreviation- Carbon/Epoxy?

Chemical Engineering... just the sciences in college... physics, chemistry 1st year and the first half of O-chem... lot of lab work of course (making acetomenaphin, banana oil, other compounds... using mass-spectrometer adn analyzing output- now just reading, discussion, and some real-world application... you know how it is everything should incorporate some engineering and often requires it- but usally, for knowledge and experience, I'll find the smartest guys, lots at Schooner Creek, and then pay attention! Keep quiet unless to ask questions after I've thought about it (hopefully) Vic Tumor, Mike Ward, the owner Steve Rander- have a question about anything about any sailboat and they've seen it, done it, fixed it, designed it, and I was fortunate enough to be there to learn.

i've installed bow thrusters complete, stern thrusters complete (cored the hull, fit the vetus tube, motor, fiberglass support, additional battery bank, fuses, cabling and cabling runs... safety switch, and finally the thruster control at the helm- pick a spot, chase and secure the wire, cut into the bridge somewhere near the helm and install the control: test/sea trial

one auto pilot install I did on a 37 foot "crab-crusher" (full-keel) sailboat built in taiwan(?)... not a tayana and they weren't sure either... one of two they mentioned which I don't recall... anyway, it had a cage built around the base of the pedestal which held the sprockets feeding the quadrant and I believe was intended to be of structural assistance to the pedestal and perhaps the cockpit as well... anyway, I had to fabricate a steel base for the ram of sufficient strength and it had to sit with +/-5 deg. on plane over all three axes referenced of course to the rudder shaft... which followed the transom's angle which was raked towards the boat... but the real difficulty was calculating the exact position the ram had to sit in the air in order to be able to turn the quadrant fully in each direction and not be in the way of cables, the framing, or the hull as the boat was a double ender so space sqeezed rather abruptly and I had to do it all from a hole that my 6'4" frame could just hunch in to work... anyway... after cutting, welding, and installing it and everything else... the installation and calibration of the raymarine componects was cake...

Carbon/Epoxy: built some carbon fiber parts (one was the instrument panel on the Ocelot 43 which was touchy because the finish had to be perfect and the carbon mat the same... anyway then along with Carlos built and installed the carbon fiber knees in it and other stuff...

radars... satellite system repair on a fountain express cruiser 48? the system was KVH and a stop swich activator had failed so it wound the cable up and then returned an error and shut down after some twitching... they thought they had to pack it and ship it to NJ or wherever but since i have background i took a look and bought a serial port universal adaptor kit to query the unit through terminal emulation software and found out the problem... that was cool... solar panels and control units, lots of alternator changes, conversions,
balmar external regulators, gensets,

it's all coming back ugh... this is cathartic but sorry if I am winding on a bit ; )

or did you mean something else entirely lol and you? have you/do you crawl into all the places on a boat you hope you never have to see?
 
#124 ·
that boat was there when I was... was there for it's frenzied completion. Things were tense at the end but the product was superb, farharbour39 "container yacht" and I worked on the 1st production model (built in europe) that came back for quality assurance purposes, testing... I was on and off the prototype and may have done some small things but Adrianne was on that while I was on the 52' Sailing Cat recently commissioned...
 
#126 ·
That's fun, something my hands have touched and others. The craftsmen that worked on that boat were top notch. Seamus, Rick, Adrianne, Todd (not me) and of course Steve, Mike, and Vic and others. They are all still there except Todd. It was a "baby" of the works. But everything kind of is... have to go for now...
 
#128 ·
Actually, soldering isn't recommended... crimping with adhesive lined heat shrink tubing is really the best way to go.

The correct answer is both.

Solder and then crimp electrical connections.

Glad I could help...

Best Regards,

e

.::.
 
#130 ·
Why isn't soldering recommended on a boat ?

I assume it is because of the motion of the boat, that the movement makes the wires eventually break at the boundary between the solder and the wire because the solder can't flex, is that it ?

The only other thing I can think of is that the salt might affect the solder in some way, but I doubt that is true since it is mostly lead.
 
#131 ·
"The only other thing I can think of is that the salt might affect the solder in some way, but I doubt that is true since it is mostly lead."
You've been misinformed. Electrical solder *was* usually a tin/lead mix 60/40 ratio, so it was only 40% lead. But lead has been discouraged and often banned for quite a while now, lead-free solder has become the norm. So yes, there are galvanic effects and corrosion possible between the wire and the solder and the fittings.
On the other hand, NASA and the USAF use solder-filled fittings made by 3M for wiring that goes up up up. The fittings are soldered by heat gun or IR gun and they shrink-fit over the wires, the solder comes from internal rings in the shrink sleeve. The fittings are waterproof and gas (atmosphere) proof when properly made. But, those aren't cheap fittings. :)
 
#132 ·
Its a bunch of hogwash - crimps fail just as much as one does that is soldered. There is no such thing as a perfect solder job as nor is there the perfect crimp. What protects the connection is the shrink tubing. A few things to consider:

1. crimp is a mechanical connection only.
2. solder is chemical connection if done properly.

Neither of the two work properly without concerns for connectivity and prevention of corrosion.

None of the two account for the type of connections being used. I have said this time and time again - soldering is a great agent for connections and the result is often stronger than the gauge of wire required to connect. Heat shrink connections offer that mechanical buffer that is all. Crimp - solder, do both - the weakest point will still be the quality of connection or quality of the wire. Just that simple. A boats electronics - the wiring doesn't move or get stressed out any more than a car does - seriously. If you have a boat that flexes that much then stop putting electronics ins a West Marine dinghy.

The factor in longevity is preventing corrosion from the latent salt air. Whether you crimp or solder - its the application of covering to prevent intrusion of elements that defines the bond. Just like you can't take a LCD and place in the cockpit - you first have to do some sealing to marinize it...I've seen both suffer death throws... try hard enough you make even the most respected solution fail..
 
#133 ·
While I have always preferred a nicely soldered connection, I will say that my mind has been changed (and not by this discussion). I friend brought his '32 ford hotrod into my shop for an intermittent no stall/no start. When the problem occurred the fuel pump was not running. After much hair pulling I traced the problem down to a connection he made by soldering 3 wires together. The wires were first twisted together in such a way as to make a strong connection even without soldering. Then they were soldered. The solder was shiny and bright, and none of the wires were the least bit loose. When the problem occurred I could touch this connection and the fuel pump ran again. I replaced the solder connection with a crimp connector and the problem was solved for good. The solder connection worked perfectly for 2 years before the problem, and I still can't tell you what was wrong with it. It looked great to me.

I'm sold. I don't solder anything together unless there's a very good reason to do so.

Its a bunch of hogwash - crimps fail just as much as one does that is soldered. There is no such thing as a perfect solder job as nor is there the perfect crimp. What protects the connection is the shrink tubing. A few things to consider:

1. crimp is a mechanical connection only.
2. solder is chemical connection if done properly.

Neither of the two work properly without concerns for connectivity and prevention of corrosion.

None of the two account for the type of connections being used. I have said this time and time again - soldering is a great agent for connections and the result is often stronger than the gauge of wire required to connect. Heat shrink connections offer that mechanical buffer that is all. Crimp - solder, do both - the weakest point will still be the quality of connection or quality of the wire. Just that simple. A boats electronics - the wiring doesn't move or get stressed out any more than a car does - seriously. If you have a boat that flexes that much then stop putting electronics ins a West Marine dinghy.

The factor in longevity is preventing corrosion from the latent salt air. Whether you crimp or solder - its the application of covering to prevent intrusion of elements that defines the bond. Just like you can't take a LCD and place in the cockpit - you first have to do some sealing to marinize it...I've seen both suffer death throws... try hard enough you make even the most respected solution fail..
 
#134 ·
Nigel Calder recommends soldering.

I have had to backtrack on this one.
 
#165 · (Edited)
Jack,

Let's be clear and please quote us the reference & page # for your statement. In his book Boat Owners Mechanical and Electrical Manual he shows how to solder, which is good, but he also says the following.

Nigel Calder from Boat Owners Mechanical & Electrical Manual Pg. 122 said:
Soldering is a controversial subject. A properly soldered connection creates the best electrical connection, but all too often the soldering is not done properly. In any case, ABYC regulations require that every joint have a mechanical means of connection other than solder. The reason for this is that if the joint gets hot (through excessive resistance or a high current flow) the solder may melt and the joint fall apart. So solder often becomes just an adjunct to a crimped connection, but in this case the solder wicking up the cable creates a hard spot, which is then liable to fail from vibration. The concensus among professionals is that a properly made crimp, done with the proper tools, is frequently a more reliable termination than soldering.
I don't know how you read that but I don't read it as a recommendation but rather a caution about using solder.
 
#135 ·
Just because Nigel Calder recommends it, doesn't make it right. For instance, Don Casey recommends that you tighten deck hardware partially, until the sealant cures and then finish tightening it after it has fully cured, which is also clearly wrong... and leads to more expensive repairs than properly countersinking the fastener holes and tightening it down once. While Don and Nigel are highly respected, some of their recommendations have since been disproven by real-world experience.

I'd also point out that soldering requires a deft hand and knowledge of how to do so properly to get a decent connection and requires a mechanical connection as well afterwards.

Crimping a connection is far easier for most people to do, and provides both a mechanical and electrical connection at once. Using the proper crimp tool and decent crimp connectors makes it very simple to get a solid and consistent connection.

I'd also point out that adhesive lined heat shrink tubing is really a good idea regardless of whether you crimp or solder.
 
#136 ·
War stories aside;

Mechanical (crimping) connections are formed by plastic deformation of the metals. The resultant connection starts out tight and then loosens over time. Once the connection loosens slightly, its conductivity plummets; this is why high power DC connections often overheat - they become poor conductors, and the current increases over time - until the connection is hot to the touch, or your boat burns to the waterline. Exposure to humid air and salt increases oxidative degradation. Crimped connections are a perfect candidate for crevice corrosion - the interstitial spaces between wires and between the wires and the connector pull in water by capillary action. Oxidative and galvanic corrosion increase the looseness of the connection.

Vibrations, and harmonic frequencies of all of the primary vibrations on a sail boat concentrate naturally at stress risers - the crimped connection is a huge stress riser, and will often fail through vibrational induced brittle fracture at the connection point.

Silver solder, with at least 3-4% silver, and rosin core flux, makes a poor mechanical connection (it is not glue) and an excellent electrical connection. A properly soldered mechanical connection is immune to crevice corrosion, it can corrode on the outside surface only. Vibrational analysis has proved over the last century or so that a properly soldered connection will last many orders of magnitude longer than a mechanical connection.

Many of the horror stories of soldered connections are no doubt from uninformed boaters using acid core solder that he had left over from the plumbing project to solder wires. The acid flux will eat the copper and tin in about a week. And of course, it is perfectly easy to make a solder joint look great and be useless; cold solder joints are difficult to detect - you have to know how to solder. Mechanical joints are easier to test (pull on the wire) but you will never make acceptable crimped connections with the Wal-Mart crimper that came free with the 12 feet of 12 gauge wire.

Anyhow...

The best of both methods can be had, and the drawbacks of each reduced, by soldering a connection first and then adding a mechanical connector.

The advantage of the ring, spade, etc. mechanical connector is that it makes a much better connection to terminal blocks and connection to devices than a soldered wire, and it is removable.

The soldered connection prevents loosening of the mechanical connection and corrosion beyond surface corrosion.

Best Regards,

e


.::.
 
#150 · (Edited)
Data??

War stories aside;

Mechanical (crimping) connections are formed by plastic deformation of the metals. The resultant connection starts out tight and then loosens over time.
IMHO this is pure speculation and your own personal theory. If it is not please direct us to a white paper supporting this claim. A properly crimped connection will be cold formed and will not "loosen" over time unless done incorrectly. If crimps are ok for NASA, Boeing and many other high tech high critical use applications they will be more than fine on your boat and have been on millions of boats and cars, and trucks and on and on and on. Most of the crimps on my own boat were 30 years old when I bought her and still passing current just fine. There were two solder joints that had failed both due to capillary action of solder creep up the wire which caused fractures.

Once the connection loosens slightly, its conductivity plummets; this is why high power DC connections often overheat - they become poor conductors, and the current increases over time - until the connection is hot to the touch, or your boat burns to the waterline.
This is EXACTLY why the ABYC says solder only should never be used. In an over temp situation the solder can melt and you'll have a live wire. If you are soldering you must crimp first or have anotehr means of mechanical connection.

Exposure to humid air and salt increases oxidative degradation.
This is why heat shrink crimp connections and tinned wire should be used. As one who lives in the North East, where nearly every home has a deep well, with LONG wire runs and fairly high amp draws, we just don't see these failures. You said "humid", how "humid" are wires sealed 200+ feet below the surface, that live underwater for their entire working life span and that last for 15, 20 years or more or until the pump fails? When almost every industry uses crimps reliably, without solder, including aerospace, and have been for years and years and years I think perporting that you must solder and crimp is over the top. Perhaps 2% of boaters know how to actually make a real solder joint. The rest will only make things worse.

The well at our old house was 245 feet deep and a true artesian. It over flows out the well cap almost all year. The crimps are about 240 feet below ground and totally submerged! The three wires connecting the pumps are CRIMPED and HEAT SHRINKED with what are called Stakons (basically adhesive lined crimps). These bare copper, non-tinned, wires have been under water now for over 13 years only crimped and heat shrinked..

Next time I replace my well pump I will be sure to let the well guy know that his hundreds of wells he's installed are going to fail because they are not both soldered and crimped..
I'm sure he'll get a real chuckle out of that.

Crimped connections are a perfect candidate for crevice corrosion - the interstitial spaces between wires and between the wires and the connector pull in water by capillary action. Oxidative and galvanic corrosion increase the looseness of the connection.
First, in a PROPERLY executed crimp there will be NO interstitial spaces for water to wick. A proper crimp is cold formed and becomes a solid mass of copper. Water does not penetrate the solid copper pipes in your house and it does not penetrate a properly executed cold formed crimp as it becomes a solid mass at the crimp/lug/wire interface. Cheap crimp tools do not always make a true cold formed or cold welded connection.

The battery lugs & wire harnesses on my wife's car are crimped and not even hermetically sealed nor is tinned wire used. Her car is blasted with wet road salt all winter long, the engine bay looks like a salt lick right about now, and has been for six years. The car also resides only 40 some-odd yards form the moist salt air of the Atlantic ocean 365 days per year. It also lives outdoors as I have more important things to put in the garage like boat stuff.
I've yet to replace a battery cable on any of our vehicles nor a "crimped" wire harness. Perhaps I should call Honda and warn them of the impending battery cable disaster that is awaiting them for not using solder??


A hermetically sealed connection, using the heavy duty adhesive lined heat shrink I use, the same type of heat shrink used by WELL DRILLERS to seal SUBMERGED wires, is not and will NOT be exposed to moist salt air when done correctly. These connections are water tight. Remember we have millions & millions of wells and well pumps in this country that are not soldered, and reside submerged below hundreds of feet of water pressure. What keeps these connections dry? Adhesive lined heat shrink only!! If you have no "salt air" or no moisture you have NO corrosion.

Vibrations, and harmonic frequencies of all of the primary vibrations on a sail boat concentrate naturally at stress risers - the crimped connection is a huge stress riser, and will often fail through vibrational induced brittle fracture at the connection point.
Funny this is the exact reasoning the ABYC uses for NOT using solder and for using marine grade, tinned, MULTI-STRANDED wire that meets UL-1426. The multi stranding and strain relief built into either heat shrink crimps or insulated crimps prevent work hardening by design solder creep does not.

Sure if a person with high soldering skills solders and crimps a terminal and uses a heat sink to prevent creep beyond the strain relief a solder joint will work fine. The harsh reality is that perhaps less than 2% of all boaters know how to solder properly or will ever do enough of it to develop the skill set. As I said above they can do more harm by soldering, without experience, than they can do with proper crimping tools and connectors.

Vibrational analysis has proved over the last century or so that a properly soldered connection will last many orders of magnitude longer than a mechanical connection.
Can you please point us to a reference white papper that supports this "factual" claim in the marine environment??

Perhaps you should spend some time educating the engineers at NASA, Lockheed, Boeing, Lear Jet, SAE, ABYC, Blue Seas, Paneltronics, Prestolite Electric, Hinckley, Hatteras, Carrier Corp, 3M, Ford, GM, Honda, Toyota, Otis Elevator or any other company that uses millions of crimps reliably.

Many of the horror stories of soldered connections are no doubt from uninformed boaters using acid core solder that he had left over from the plumbing project to solder wires. The acid flux will eat the copper and tin in about a week. And of course, it is perfectly easy to make a solder joint look great and be useless; cold solder joints are difficult to detect - you have to know how to solder.
Thank you for making my point..:) Very few boaters know how to solder correctly and SHOULD NOT.

Mechanical joints are easier to test (pull on the wire) but you will never make acceptable crimped connections with the Wal-Mart crimper that came free with the 12 feet of 12 gauge wire.
We're in full agreement!! You need the proper tools and quality conenctors like those made by Ancor, FTZ or AMP.

Anyhow...

The best of both methods can be had, and the drawbacks of each reduced, by soldering a connection first and then adding a mechanical connector.
Again, this is bass ackwards. You should never solder first then crimp as it defeats the entire mechanical cold formed crimp. It can also damage the dies on the crimp tool. Here's what NASA has to say:

"4.3.4 Crimping. Stranded wire shall be used for crimping (Requirement). Crimping of solid
wire is prohibited. Crimping of solder tinned wire is prohibited."


Somebody want to tell NASA they are wrong..
 
#137 ·
"Crimping a connection is far easier for most people to do,"
And perhaps not, since most newbs will go down to the auto parts store and buy a $5-with-500-pieces crimp set that looks just like the $50 set but is doomed to fail. In crimping, just as with soldering, folks need to be aware of the details. The cheap sets are often just dimensioned wrong, and the cheap sleeves made incorrectly. They'll get you home, they just won't last ten years. Or they'll fall apart a good percent of the time.

Acid-core solder is a good suspect for a failed connection. Or maybe wires that weren't clean to start with. Or maybe just a cold solder joint, that problem affects production lines as well as hand work. If a 3-wire connection really had a perfectly solid mechanical twist under the solder--it wouldn't have failed even if the solder had. Obviously the solder had not wetted out and penetrated the wires, making that a failure due to a cold solder joint.

And since it was in a hot rod--we have to assume the wires were all proper stranded wires, not solid ones, to begin with. Right? That would be another failure mode, regardless of connection type.
 
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