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Help me out guys... Oriental to Cedar Island?

5K views 31 replies 9 participants last post by  Whampoa 
#1 · (Edited)
OK... here's the deal: I have a full price offer on our O'Day 22 but part of the deal is me helping the buyer sail/motor the boat from Oriental to Cedar Island. I am unsure of a few things. Sorry, my charts are on the boat.

1. Can i cut through from Turnagain Bay to Long Bay effectively avoiding going around Piney Island? I see a cut through but don't know the depths or if this even a reasonable way to get around the USMC bombing range. The O22 only draws 1'11" so depth is not a major concern but still we don't want to run aground. :D

2. Same question next cut over.... Can i cut through from Long Bay to Thorofare Bay with out any worries? I know there is a bridge there but i think the bridge has 45' clearance. Plenty for the O'day 22. Not sure about tides and depths though.

3. IF we average 4 kts... how long am i looking at for travel time?

Other concerns are an older outboard (1993) that has not been serviced in a few years but runs fine... and standing rigging that needs replacement. I don't think the rigging will fail and the engine runs fine but will it get us all the way there if we need it too? I don't know.

Am i begging for trouble here? Or should i just do it knowing that the new owner will be responsible for any towboat services? We've already had that discussion and he agreed to paying for any towing that may be required. Also, we've got charts, GPS, VHF, Handheld VHF, Cell service, safety gear and first aid.

Thanks in advance for any help here. :)
 
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#3 ·
Joel-

OK... here's the deal: I have a full price offer on our O'Day 22 but part of the deal is me helping the buyer sail/motor the boat from Oriental to Cedar Island. I am unsure of a few things. Sorry, my charts are on the boat.

1. Can i cut through from Turnagain Bay to Long Bay effectively avoiding going around Piney Island? I see a cut through but don't know the depths or if this even a reasonable way to get around the USMC bombing range. The O22 only draws 1'11" so depth is not a major concern but still we don't want to run aground. :D
I think you can do the first cut through what is called "Old Canal" on the NOAA ENC charts. The NOAA charts don't say how deep it is, but indicate that it has a maximum depth of about 6', but that could have shoaled since the charts were last done. The nearest numbers on the charts say the depth is about 2'. Might be a bit tight.

2. Same question next cut over.... Can i cut through from Long Bay to Thorofare Bay with out any worries? I know there is a bridge there but i think the bridge has 45' clearance. Plenty for the O'day 22. Not sure about tides and depths though.
The water here appears to be deeper than the "Old Canal", but doesn't say exactly how deep it is. The bridge has 45' clearance according to the charts.

3. IF we average 4 kts... how long am i looking at for travel time?

Other concerns are an older outboard (1993) that has not been serviced in a few years but runs fine... and standing rigging that needs replacement. I don't think the rigging will fail and the engine runs fine but will it get us all the way there if we need it too? I don't know.

Am i begging for trouble here? Or should i just do it knowing that the new owner will be responsible for any towboat services? We've already had that discussion and he agreed to paying for any towing that may be required. Also, we've got charts, GPS, VHF, Handheld VHF, Cell service, safety gear and first aid.

Thanks in advance for any help here. :)
If you can make about 4 knots, you are looking at about 8-9 hours of travel time. Since the rough route I plotted out on Google Earth makes it about 30 miles or so to the eastern end of Cedar Island from Oriental via the two canals. If the wind is out of the North-through SouthWest, you should be okay to sail a large portion of it, since you'll be going mainly east.

Get an unlimited towing package as a safety measure. You'll want local knowledge for the two canals, to know if they're in fact passable.
 
#4 ·
It's possible ..... according to the chart. Try checking with SeaTow or TowBoat US and see if they have any local knowledge.
 
#5 ·
Good idea John. I'm going to call Towboat and see what they know.

SD, I'm thinking that Old Canal might be too close. After looking at the NOAA ENC charts i'm worried that even though we draw 1'11" it might be tough in that area.... I'm gonna see what local knowledge i can find. The next cut looks very doable though and i would wonder why there would be a bridge with 45' clearance without a fair amount of depth there. I'm thinking go around Piney Island but cut through from Long Bay to Thorofare Bay. My guess was 9 hours too.

I'm also going to offer to split the cost of an engine inspection and new impellar since this affect my safety directly. There is no reason not to do this.

Anybody else got any knowledge of that area or any anyput they would be willing to offer?
 
#6 ·
Glad to help... if there's anything else I can do, let me know. :)
 
#8 ·
I am aware of that and am taking that into consideration. A phone call would be a good idea, i agree. As far as being allowed near there, the chart clearly marks the restrcted area and it appears that you are sill allowed to go into Turnagain Bay... but i'm not sure.

Thanks SCoffshore!

Glad to help... if there's anything else I can do, let me know. :)
Thanks Sailingdog!
 
#14 ·
This is not off base at all and is a good point.

***UPDATE***

  • I called Towboat US Oriental and they suggested NOT to take this because he had recently and wished he had not. They said that crabpotters take this sometimes but that's about it. His towboat draws 2'1" .... only 2 more inches than our boat but he also mentioned he was in there at high tide and still had a tough time so it looks like "Old Canal" is not going to be an option.

  • I also talked to Cherry Point Marine Base about the restricted area on Piney Island and they said that Turnagain Bay is not a restricted area but it's very close to what IS restricted... a moot point because of Towboat's info.

  • Seatow is giving me a call back shortly after he finishes refueling but he thought it was a no go through "Old Canal" because of a possible downed tree there which blocks passage.

Next i need to figure out Long Bay through to Thorofare Bay... i plan on calling USCG Hobucken Station to see what they have to say.

Thanks for the input guys... keep it coming!
 
#11 ·
He's wanting a 9 hour test ride with you as the unpaid skipper for a 22 foot? Tell the dude that delivery is on him and he should rent a trailer or sailor. I realize that's probably not helpful, but it is normal.

Is the market really that slow down there Joel?
 
#12 ·
Actually no, it's not that slow because we've had a couple offers and atleast 6-7 people look at her this month alone. This guy is serious about it though and was the first to offer full price... so i will take the offer and hopefully have a little fun on our family boat one last time while helping him deliver it. I had the option of not helping him but i want to be helpful.

The deal i have with the new owner is that he pays me full price to help him deliver it... or 200 less if i don't help him. This is a deal i'm willing to take given some of the other offers i've received. Plus the boat has been on the market for a little under a year so i want to go ahead and move it now. Also it will be paid for and transfered into his name before we leave... actually this Sat to be exact.
 
#16 · (Edited)
That may be true... it's hard for me to tell because i'm not as good as i want to be with my nav skills. I think since i'm really going to Morris Marina in Atlantic, NC, that it will be quicker to cut through the thorofare canal.

The good news is that i'm having our mechanic come by the house to work on the outboard. This will give me some peace of mind about taking it that far. :)

Anybody wanna guess how much gas we will need? We've got two 6 gallon tanks but i have no idea if 12 gallons is plenty or not enough. I could always take an extra, extra can. :D
 
#19 · (Edited)
Evening Joel,

Using the Coastal Explorer software, I ran two quick route plans from the bridge in Oriental to a point off of the water tower in Altlantic.

The first, taking the West Bay through the canal to Thorofare Bay route -

34.92 NM or 8hrs 45 mins. at 4 knots made good.

For both routes , I used fairly simple routing and made no attempt to account for effects of any tacking you might need to do under sail. So essentially a motoring distance.

The second taking a similar route but bypassing the West Bay entrance and continuing southeast to the northern entrance to Core Sound between King Fish Shoal and Hodges Reef and then winding down the Core Sound.

39.25 NM or 9 hrs 49 mins at 4 knots made good

You didn't specify what the size of your outboard is or what your previous estimate of fuel consumption for that motor was so we will all just be guessing at potential fuel planning estimates. Of course you know that tends to vary with the load and conditions encountered.

Both routes look like local knowledge is going to be pretty important.

Overall I would want to make sure you pick an exceptionally mild weather day for your trip with the winds favorable for that passage in the small boat you are talking about. The wrong fetch out there would be no fun.

Good luck,
John
 
#20 ·
He's talking about a 22' O'Day, so I would expect something in the 5hp area. And as it's an older engine, I would also expect it's a 2 stroke.
 
#21 · (Edited)
Morning guys,

Whats the latest Joel?

Any new data for your planning team :) ?

When you ran the motor in the past, any idea of how much fuel it burned an hr during sustained 4 knot runs? Simple math to estimate fuel required.

Pick a good day and it should be a fun trip.

John
 
#22 · (Edited)
Thanks once again for the imput guys.

Oops... sorry. I should've given more details. It's an 1993 8hp Johnson Sailmaster 2 stroke. It moves the boat pretty fast through the water. My guess is that it will push us at 5-6 kts but of course i don't want to run it full throttle the whole time. We used it primarily as a day sailor so i never really had a chance to see how far our 6 gallon tank would take us. The farthest we took it was up to Broad Creek and up South River. It sounds like we need to take a couple extra tanks... maybe 24 gallons?

Whampoa, Looks like taking the cut is the way... thanks for those numbers. I talked to a good friend of mine who has been through there and he says it's constantly changing and the channel is small and marked with PVC pipes so they can move them often. Doesn't sound great but also doesn't sound like it would give us any trouble with a 1'11" draft.

Weather is always my main concern. We will not go unless the conditions are optimal. Currently, the plan is to leave at daybreak this coming Saturday. No thunder storms is mandatory and a fair amount of wind would be nice. :D I've had the O22 out in 3-4 foot waves and that is not much fun... she's a light boat at 2083#s and gets pushed around a lot. 1-2' waves are fun though. :D

ugh... where's my coffee? I wish i was in Oriental sitting at The Bean.
 
#24 ·
This is good to know because i will be ready for a decent meal after being on the water all day! Have you ever been to Morris Marina Jacky? I wonder if they have any kinda food there... Mark, (the new owner) will probably know.

btw everyone... here's the boat we're taking over there... It's been in the family 22 years... one year for each foot.








 
#25 · (Edited)
Have a safe trip.

24 gallons seems like overkill.

You should be able to sail much of the route.



For grins, let's look at a range of fuel burn rate assumptions: Assuming 12 gal onboard and available....

@ 1/2 Gal/hr motoring for 9 hrs = 4.5 gallons , 7.5 gal reserve
@ 3/4 Gal/hr motoring for 9 hrs = 6.75 gallons , 5.25 gal reserve
@ 1 Gal/hr motoring for 9 hrs = 9 gallons , 3 gal reserve
@ 1 1/4 Gal/hr motoring for 9 hrs = 11.25 gallons , 3/4 gal reserve
@ 1 1/2 Gal/hr motoring for 9 hrs = 13.5 gallons, 1.5 gal deficit

I would think 12 gallons would be adequate assuming you will be able to sail quite a bit of the trip.

It's about 20 nm from the bridge down the river and around the prohibited/ restricted areas to the mouth of West Bay. That looks like a very sailable segment. Once you get into West Bay and the canal you may choose to motor or motor sail . You'll just need to make some assumptions you and the new owner are comfortable with and go have fun.

If not then 18 gals should provide plenty of reserves.

Later,

John
 
#27 ·
Evening Joel,

Looks like you have a favorable forecast for your trip this weekend out to Atlantic. At least so far.

Have you managed to get it all set up with the new owner?

Let us know how it goes.

Regards, John
 
#29 ·
Looks like she was well loved and taken care of Joel..mixed feelings on the sale I'm sure.
 
#31 ·
The O22 had been in the family a long time (22 years actually) so it was a sad day but i got to deliver her so that was a nice goodbye. I also have an invitation to come over and sail her around Core Sound so that's very cool. :)

I'm just happy to only have ONE boat to work on now... two was one too many!!! I hope the Pearson 27 will give us atleast another 22 years of sailing and i expect to put a lot (more) work into her to keep her sailing her best. :)
 
#30 ·
Hey guys... i'm back. The trip was succesful! It took us a lot less time than we planned because we decided the day before that we had enough local knowledge to try the "Old Canal" cut through. It worked with no problems at all and cut about 2-3 hours off our trip. Actually, with some NE winds i think i could get my Pearson 27 through there but i would probably not try it. The O'Day 22 handled it beautifully. I would say that the canal has about 30-35' of width and the depth was a consistent 4.5 feet. We averaged somewhere around 5kts occasionally getting to 6 and sometimes dropping below 4kts. We motored the whole way but had full sails out for about 1/2 of the trip. btw- it took less than 7 gallons of fuel! That was a surprise to us.

So we took the path marked in red. I took some pictures but our laptop screen is F'ed so i will have to post them once the new replacement lcd screen arrives... the pics are still on the camera for now.

Thanks again for everyone's advice... and just fyi... Core sound is a beautiful area and if you have a shoal draft boat it's perfect. Otherwise you have to stick to the channels cause it can get shallow in some areas. Most of the shoals are marked by the locals with sticks and pvc pipes... so they are easy to spot even without the charts.

 
#32 ·
Thanks for the update Joel. Glad the trip went well. Looks like a nice day for it but it was good you were able to cut off a few hours given the wx later in the day over the sound.

Thanks for the info on the old canal. I think I will run my outboard out that way and check out the fishing in that area.

I look forward to your photos from the trip.

Best Regards, John
 
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