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Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Gear & Maintenance > Yet another seacock thread
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Thread: Yet another seacock thread Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
08-12-2008 11:36 AM
sailingdog Dan-

If the through-hull and flange aren't tightly affixed, they will move. Movement can break the sealant seal to the hull or parts... and then you have water coming in. For sealant to work, the parts have to be solidly affixed to one another.
08-12-2008 11:23 AM
danielgoldberg You're making me re-think my plan.

By the way, FWIW, I wasn't planning on keeping the retaining nuts. I was going to spin those off, put the backing plate right to the hull, then spin the adaptor down to the backing plate with 5200 already on the backing plate and around whatever space is there between the hole in the backing plate and the through hull. I wasn't figuring on needing to make the through hull butt up against the top of the inside of the flange and screw it down tightly, as it's the sealant on the threads that's going to keep the water out, not the through hull tight against the top of the inside of the flange adaptor. You obviously have a lot more experience with this than do I, so I certainly don't profess to have this entirely worked out.

I do agree that cutting the through hulls while in place is going to be the tricky part. I actually was even contemplating making the backing plates sufficiently thick so that I won't need to cut the pipes.

Perhaps all the effort needed to avoid removing the through hulls is more effort than simply removing the through hulls. Got some tinkin to do mon.
08-12-2008 09:13 AM
Maine Sail
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielgoldberg View Post
Curious, what are the reasons?

The reason I'd like to do it the way I'm planning is that the through hulls are installed with 5200, so getting them out will not be without heartache. Plus, if I pull the through hulls I'm sure I'll be doing something that will have an impact on the warranty, or at least the builder certainly will claim that in the future if there is a problem, whereas merely adding flanged adaptors cannot possibly give rise to such an argument. (And Dawg, because I'm doing this over the winter, I will have sailed the boat a bit by then, and believe me I'll be checking the through hulls, so if they were not bedded properly in the first place presumably I'll learn that this season. In any event, as noted, if they're not bedded properly now, I have recourse; if I pull them and then have a problem . . . ) Plus, I actually don't plan to through bolt the flange to the hull. I know, I know, but I just don't like the idea of increasing the number of below-the-waterline holes in the hull by a factor of three. I'm planning to 5200 the backing plate to the hull, then 5200 the flange to the backing plate, and screw the flange to the backing plate (with screws deep enough to get bite, but not deep enough to go through the backing plate to the hull). Assuming I can cut the through hulls to size with them already installed, this should not present a problem, unless I'm missing something.

#1- The fit between the through hull and backing plate should be a tight fit with the entire hole not much bigger than the OD of the thru-hulls threads. This is critical for the upper flange sealing properly to the backing plate. The hole for the thru-hull retaining nut will be BIGGER than the bevel for the marine sealant in the base of the flange! A bead of marine sealant 3/4 of an inch deep by a 3/8 thick diameter will NOT seal well after you have spun it around threading it onto the thru-hull.

#2 - The thru-hull is designed to be threaded into a seacock or flange that has already been mounted to the hull. The thru-hull is tightened with a step wrench and a large pipe wrench quite tightly.

You are trying to;

A)
Cut the thru-hull to length while installed which could damage the integrity of the seal. It will also be FAR more difficult to do this in the boat than you assume and also get a clean cut with threads that will work.

B) Thread the flange onto an existing thru-hull which needs to be done with lots of torque. The surface area of the flange is MUCH greater than the little rim that makes contact on a thru-hulls mushroom head. This increased surface area will most likely not allow the proper torque. Spinning a thru-hull head against fiberglass has much less resistance than spinning a 5-6" wide flange. Applying the proper torque could either spin the thru-hull, thus damaging the original seal, or not allow enough torque for a proper fit & seal.

#3) - The backing plate should be full, meaning no voids to account for the nut you would be sliding it over, as the entire premise is to strengthen the hull and prevent movement.

#4 - In the future, if the thru-hull leaks because you never re-did or corrected the 9th grade drop outs mistakes, made at the factory, how on earth will you get to the thru-hull retaining nut buried in the marine sealant to remove and re-bed the thru-hulls?


Considering I owned a brand new boat and went through a full re-bedding, after ONE season, I do NOT trust any factory bedding job, to a high school drop out, especially one bellow the waterline. The guys doing the grunge jobs at the factory, like bedding, are NOT the highest skilled guys in the plant trust me!!


Having worked in boat yards in my younger days, and having R&R'd perhaps 100+ seacocks, I can assure you that seacocks bedded with 5200 will come out, any number of ways, including a 4" angle grinder. I've always had luck with a heat gun and a pipe wrench. You ruin the threads but the thru-hull is a minimal expense in this project..


If this is the method you plan on using I'd consider just leaving them the way they are. I don't understand how you'd void any warranty by adding or changing a thru-hull. In fact the builder may claim adding the flange is what caused the integrity damage or leak of the thru-hull, if you have one, as I pointed out in the pit falls above.

Thru-hulls are meant to be threaded in last to an already secure, & top side bedded, seacock or flange.
08-12-2008 03:22 AM
Omatako Sorry I didn't read the whole thread but I just want to say that I would fight really hard before allowing another hole in my boat. There must be a way to tap raw water from another source inside the boat.

If I have the time on my next haul-out I will be removing all my thru-hulls and blocking the holes with GRP and having a manifold on one decent sized sea-****, one in the bow and one in the stern (two heads), to provide raw water to wherever it's needed. There are very few occasions when more water will be drawn by the accessories than the seacock can provide. And real easy to switch off when leaving the boat.

The less holes in my boat the happier I am.

Andrd
08-11-2008 12:28 PM
danielgoldberg
Quote:
Originally Posted by halekai36 View Post

I would not do it that way for a number of reasons but it's up to you. It takes me all of about five minutes per thru-hull to get them out with a pipe wrench. New thru-hulls are cheap even if you destroy the old ones..
Curious, what are the reasons?

The reason I'd like to do it the way I'm planning is that the through hulls are installed with 5200, so getting them out will not be without heartache. Plus, if I pull the through hulls I'm sure I'll be doing something that will have an impact on the warranty, or at least the builder certainly will claim that in the future if there is a problem, whereas merely adding flanged adaptors cannot possibly give rise to such an argument. (And Dawg, because I'm doing this over the winter, I will have sailed the boat a bit by then, and believe me I'll be checking the through hulls, so if they were not bedded properly in the first place presumably I'll learn that this season. In any event, as noted, if they're not bedded properly now, I have recourse; if I pull them and then have a problem . . . ) Plus, I actually don't plan to through bolt the flange to the hull. I know, I know, but I just don't like the idea of increasing the number of below-the-waterline holes in the hull by a factor of three. I'm planning to 5200 the backing plate to the hull, then 5200 the flange to the backing plate, and screw the flange to the backing plate (with screws deep enough to get bite, but not deep enough to go through the backing plate to the hull). Assuming I can cut the through hulls to size with them already installed, this should not present a problem, unless I'm missing something.
08-10-2008 10:27 PM
sailingdog Dan-

I'd go with new bronze through-hulls, since you're pulling the boat. Then you'll know they're bedded, backed and installed properly. I'd also add that it often takes more time to fix what someone else did wrong than to do it right from the beginning.
08-10-2008 08:35 PM
Maine Sail
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielgoldberg View Post
Yeah, you're preaching to the choir on that one. The guy's a good guy, and he's a generator guy who's installing our genset, so he's adding a through hull. In fairness to him, this is the way he's always seen it, this is the way he's always done it, he's never had a problem or even heard of a problem. Plus, he's not a fibreglass guy or plumber. It's sort of like asking your plumber why he makes the electrical connections on the water pump in an odd way. It's something he does, but it's not his area of expertise.
Simple enough and that's a good reason why he did not understand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by danielgoldberg View Post
In any event, I'm going to invest a number of hours correcting the situation on the through hulls on our boat over the winter, and I'm going to use the flange adaptor, which I learned about from you (thanks so much). I'm actually going to try to do it by keeping the existing through hulls, and add the backing plates and cut the through hulls to length while they're installed. That last part will be the trick to determine whether I can do this without ripping out the actual through hulls, which would make the project substantially more difficult and time consuming.
I would not do it that way for a number of reasons but it's up to you. It takes me all of about five minutes per thru-hull to get them out with a pipe wrench. New thru-hulls are cheap even if you destroy the old ones..

Quote:
Originally Posted by danielgoldberg View Post
On another note, I saw on your website one install that I would think twice about. It's the one where you need to make the 90 degree turn right off the through hull, and you attached the elbow right to the flange adaptor, and then the valve after that in the line. To me, that's questionable because you don't have the valve right on the fitting on the hull. So, if the elbow breaks or leaks or whatever, you have no way to shut the water. One disadvantage of the flange adaptor is that you have a fitting between the valve and the through hull (i.e., the flange adaptor itself). To me that's a reasonable compromise under the circumstances. But, adding in the elbow before the valve probably isn't. If it were me (which, as you say on your site, consider how much you're paying for this opinion), I would use a traditional flanged seacock on this one through hull, and fit the elbow to the seacock. That will get you the clearance you need, and still keep the valve right on the through hull.
It's not always possible on an older boat to do things to ABYC standards even if you try. While not ideal, that installation is in it's own separate access space/locker where nothing could possibly bang into it. The elbow is a heavy duty bronze one and the threads were made up very tightly prior to install in a large bench vise. I have no worries about it as the original was just mismatched threads on a thru-hull with no backing plate. Again not ideal but when that is what you have to work with and there is NO room for any other option, believe me I looked, you do the best you can.

Quote:
Originally Posted by danielgoldberg View Post
And FWIW, I wholeheardely concur with others about your website. Very nicely done, and remarkably informative and clear. Thanks.
Thanks!!
08-10-2008 04:30 PM
danielgoldberg
Quote:
Originally Posted by halekai36 View Post
If this guy working on your boat is asking questions like this perhaps he should not be working on your boat? Especially if he feels NPS & NPT are a safe match because he got "five" threads... Really makes you wonder why we pay so much for these "experts" to work on our five, six and seven figure toys...
Yeah, you're preaching to the choir on that one. The guy's a good guy, and he's a generator guy who's installing our genset, so he's adding a through hull. In fairness to him, this is the way he's always seen it, this is the way he's always done it, he's never had a problem or even heard of a problem. Plus, he's not a fibreglass guy or plumber. It's sort of like asking your plumber why he makes the electrical connections on the water pump in an odd way. It's something he does, but it's not his area of expertise.

In any event, I'm going to invest a number of hours correcting the situation on the through hulls on our boat over the winter, and I'm going to use the flange adaptor, which I learned about from you (thanks so much). I'm actually going to try to do it by keeping the existing through hulls, and add the backing plates and cut the through hulls to length while they're installed. That last part will be the trick to determine whether I can do this without ripping out the actual through hulls, which would make the project substantially more difficult and time consuming.

On another note, I saw on your website one install that I would think twice about. It's the one where you need to make the 90 degree turn right off the through hull, and you attached the elbow right to the flange adaptor, and then the valve after that in the line. To me, that's questionable because you don't have the valve right on the fitting on the hull. So, if the elbow breaks or leaks or whatever, you have no way to shut the water. One disadvantage of the flange adaptor is that you have a fitting between the valve and the through hull (i.e., the flange adaptor itself). To me that's a reasonable compromise under the circumstances. But, adding in the elbow before the valve probably isn't. If it were me (which, as you say on your site, consider how much you're paying for this opinion), I would use a traditional flanged seacock on this one through hull, and fit the elbow to the seacock. That will get you the clearance you need, and still keep the valve right on the through hull.

And FWIW, I wholeheardely concur with others about your website. Very nicely done, and remarkably informative and clear. Thanks.
08-10-2008 03:56 PM
gtod25
Halekai36, thanks for a great website on this subject and others...

I linked to it above but could not remember where I found it. Outstanding stuff.
08-10-2008 03:25 PM
Maine Sail
It seals because...

It seals because the head of a thru-hull fitting is concave or has a groove to capture sealant and also sealant is applied under the flange between it and the backing plate.

Sealant gets trapped in the concave part:

Sealant gets applied here too and trapped in the bevel near the threads:

Like This:



If this guy working on your boat is asking questions like this perhaps he should not be working on your boat? Especially if he feels NPS & NPT are a safe match because he got "five" threads... Really makes you wonder why we pay so much for these "experts" to work on our five, six and seven figure toys...
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