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Big Freakin' Sails

593K views 3K replies 293 participants last post by  smackdaddy 
#1 ·
Okay - this thread is for people that ACTUALLY LIKE Big Freakin' Sails (note for morons: the verb, not the noun). BFS simply means sailing that pushes limits - whatever those limits may be. And herein lies the rub...and the reason I need to explain a couple of things so people don't start foaming at the mouth right off the bat.

There has been a tremendous amount of hubbub over this "philosophy" in another thread - but that thread apparently "came with a lot of baggage" - to the point that the topic itself got lost in the fog of war. So, this is an attempt to start cleanly.

It must be understood that the love for the adventure and excitement of hard sailing is just as valid and robust in the newbie as it is in the big-sailing old salt. The gap between the two is experience and knowledge. And the goal here is not to fill that gap by quashing the spirit of adventure and excitement with a deluge of cynicism and technicality - but to help us all learn, if and when the time comes, how to better handle that moment when mother nature starts rising beyond our sailing abilities. Because if you keep sailing - it will happen, period. And as you'll see, it can get very frightening very quickly.

For an old salt, these limits will obviously be worlds beyond those of the typical newbie. That old salt will probably snicker at the point at which the newbie becomes terrified - understandably so. Yet, there will inevitably be an even more seasoned salt that will, in turn, snicker at the snickerer when he/she soils his/her own breeches in a blow. It's all subjective and un-ownable.

Therefore, the BFS factor of a newbie experiencing a hard heel and wayward helm for the very first time is just as exciting, important, and valuable (in BFS terms) as the old salt battling a 50 knot gale. It's just about the attitude with which the exploit is approached and remembered - and taken into account as they go back out for more. There are great stories and valuable lessons in both experiences - as well as great opportunities for good hearted slams on the brave posters (which is valuable as well). That's BFS.

So, to be clear this thread is JUST AS MUCH FOR THE SAILING NEWBIE (of which I am one) as it is for the old salt. It's a place to tell your story, listen to others', learn some lessons, and discuss the merits or detractions of Big Freakin' Sails.

The following inaugural BFS stories illustrate what this thread is all about. As I said, I'm a newbie - and you see my first BFS story below. You can then compare that with the other great BFS stories thereafter (sometimes edited to protect the innocent) which I think are great tales from great sailors; they cover the spectrum of "pushing the limits". Then, hopefully, you'll throw down some BFS of your own (either your own story, stories you admire, or stories that are just flat-out lies but with great BFS value - whatever).

Now, let's have some fun...shall we?
 
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#159 ·
Smack..

every time you're on your own or with anyone inexperienced, you should use the tether, and PFD.

It should be tied in such a way that under no circunstance if you fall over you should fall in the water. If your boat is going at over 4 knots you will die...no one can resist the water pressure. it's betetr you bang your body all over, but stay over the water.

I attach mine either to the traveller while in the cockpit, or to the boom above.

If I have to go forward, I use dedicated lines.

 
#161 ·
Hey Alex....Thats a pretty cool trick...You reach down Give Louis a cookie and he spins the wheel till you give him another..:p
 
#162 ·
I'm actually more impressed by how he tilts the planet to match the boat... :)
 
#167 · (Edited)
Giu - thanks for the tether vid. Very "edutainment" kind of vibe. I think, personally, my favorite part was right at the end where you start trying to make the old hand/armpit flatulence sounds. I'm not really sure what that has to do with tether theory (maybe a Portugese celebratory dance after each successful tack?) - but I do know it works a lot better if you put your hand under your fleece - at least here in the U.S.

Pain - be afraid. Be very afraid. Actually I just think Giu refuses to believe he got so severely punked by you.

Valiente - welcome! We're waiting with bated breath (except for T - his is actual baited breath) for your BFS! What ya got, dude?

T - I'm trying, man, I'm really trying. Ahm....ahh....ahm...thanks for your...ahmm...ahhh....witty.....ahhh....contribution. Stay in the slip. Heh. Yeah. Heh.

Yo! Newbies! Throw down some BFS, baby! We're counting on you! These chuckleheads...they got nothin!
 
#168 ·
Valiente - welcome! We're waiting with baited breath (well T's actually the only one with baited breath) for your BFS! What ya got, dude?
Nothing on camera, alas. Let's just say that the very moment I learned about the "funnelling" effect of wind in valleys exiting over estuaries that can turn 20 knots on the beam to 40 knots on the anti-foul, I had left the cockpit to the tillerpilot (set to "moderate" seas) without PFD or tether because a fender had rolled off the boat on the lee side, and I thought it looked "unseamanlike" to have it flailing around in seven knots of froth.

At that point, I learned that a lot of old salts won't notice the fender when the skipper is up to his chest in green water, with one foot in the air and the other on a 50 degree tilted deck, desperately hauling the mainsheet free enough so that it ran so rapidly that it eats a hole in his finger.

That, they notice. Oh, well. That was the end of Season One. I got better, I think.
 
#170 · (Edited)
Valiente - Ahh Mother Nature, the original roller furling! Charlie's photo of the green water rail bears your point out. Fenders in the water - who gives a damn? I mean he's hammering so hard they're actually floating above the deck! So, to sum up - 50 degrees, line-chewed-flesh, and chest-deep-greenwater - BFS, dude, BFS!

Now Valiente brings up a good point that I think needs to be addressed. The whole "Photo-Happened Edict" was presented by Giu, and I think is perfectly valid in most situations. However, it needs some clarification lest it dissuade the newbies from throwing down herein. So...

Addendum 1: IF one is an old salt and is throwing down a BFS as if it's pure, true and virginal - then the PHE applies, or is at least tremendously helpful in silencing those screaming MDB.

Addendum 2: HOWEVER, if one is a newbie, said newbie is not exactly going to have the wherewithal to be snapping mementos while simultaneously battling to survive either physical harm or immense embarrassment. So newbies get a pass - PHE is rescinded. They just need to actually live through their harrowing adventure and tell their story in the safe and nurturing environs of BFS. Heh-heh.

Addendum 3: ALSO, if anyone, newbie and salt alike, is throwing down outright lies to entertain the masses and make themselves look good, while simultaneously infuriating those that actually care about MDB, then they are most revered in BFS. Especially when everyone initially believes the tale that is so obviously MDB (e.g. - the much revered Pain's offering). AND - especially if the MDBer refuses to backdown even when confronted with incontrovertible evidence that he/she packed to the gills with said MDB. In such cases, the PHE likewise goes out the window unless it's an ingeniously photoshopped piece of evidence that backs up the blazing MDB (see Giu's many previous posts). NOW - a caveat - if the poster's MDB attempts are either/both numerous and/or lame, then everyone in the BFS constituency reserves the right to mercilessly beat the hell out of them and banish them to AFOC - newbie and salt alike.

Okay - I think that clears everything up. Carry on.
 
#173 · (Edited)
John - screw the PHE, that was awesome BFS, dude! Thanks. For me - a few takeaways:

1. When a tough French sailing dude uses baking terms to describe a sail (e.g. - souffle), be ready for BFS.
2. In conditions like that, with your level of experience, I would have soiled my foulies. I love your attitude.
3. I subscribe to your practice of peeing in the cockpits of other people's yachts. At our marina, they're on the lookout for a pesky armadillo that has "hit" almost every boat in the marina. Heh-heh. Fools!
4. Beaufort - that dude just likes to up the ante doesn't he?

Seriously, though, is the Beaufort Scale then the "F" (Force X) scale we've talked about - and inclusive of all conditions (wind/sea state/etc.)? And, if so, I assume your point is that it only really applies to open water (back to the sheltered sailing blessing)?

Again - great post.
 
#176 · (Edited)
...Seriously, though, is the Beaufort Scale then the "F" (Force X) scale we've talked about - and inclusive of all conditions (wind/sea state/etc.)? And, if so, I assume your point is that it only really applies to open water (back to the sheltered sailing blessing)?

Again - great post.
Hey thanks. Yeah, the "Force X" is Beaufort-speak. In my story above, the French sailor was telling me that it was blowing somewhere between Force 7-9, I was just too ignorant to understand the message.

And yes, the scale applies to open water conditions. So it doesn't always match or sync-up too well with what we encounter in relatively protected waters. Usually, in protected waters, wave height lags well behind windspeed. They begin to match up better with the Beaufort Scale "Force" ratings as fetch increase -- as out on open waters.

Even in open waters, there is some fudge factor in the Beaufort Scale, so sailors will often give a range, like Force 7-9. In the initial stages of a heavy blow, it can take a while for the wave height to catch up to the windspeed. During that period, the waves tend to get tightly packed and very steep-faced. As the storm progresses, the waves usually get better organized, larger and spread out more.

Edit. P.S. What Valiente said!
 
#177 ·
Val,

I like those Lavac toilets very much -- but in our prior discussions I neglected to mention this one down-side. On a regular toilet you can pump the handle and keep the bowl dry while going... That's where the scuppers come in, I guess:)
 
#183 ·
You can pump a Lavac partly "dry" by leaving the lid up, but it will gradually fill again if the seawater feed is open. So my technique under way (unless it's "scupper weather" or the even worse "bucket conditions") is to pump it down a bit, have my whizz, and then pump it out lid up, then close the lid and give it a rinse down.

Of course, if the bowl is normally full, you could get splashed just opening it, but I suppose you could partially turn off the feed line (if you fully closed it, you'd probably collapse the hose), give it a couple of pumps to reduce the level, and then open it to pump further.

Frankly, much as I love my Lavac, I haven't conducted extensive field tests.;)
 
#175 ·
Smackie: Due to the presence of land and its funnelling effect along the longer axes of the Great Lakes, we freshwater sailors are quite used to the "closely packed wave trains" John mentions inshore, "falling" off the land. The waves here don't usually get above three or four metres (10-13 feet), or if they do, people don't deliberately sail in them. So in most cases it's the wave action, not the winds, that both make the crews sick and can damage the boats. What can be odd is when the winds are strong from either the SSE or the NNW in either Lakes Ontario or Erie, which is when there is very little fetch inshore, but loads of wind. The water looks like a nervous meringue pie with thousands of little peaks about half a metre high...but you can't SEE the wind on the water very well, and you can get the mast wet if you are overcanvassed for the same wind speeds John mentions.

I have talked with oceanic cruisers who've sailed in the Great Lakes and have admitted going out in just 25 knots with the characteristic small "square" waves have made them feel ill for the first time in years. By contrast, my first oceanic sailing was with Alex last year off Portugal and I didn't really notice what he judged was a three-metre ocean swell (with not a lot of waves on top of it at maybe 12 knots of wind) because it was so diffuse compared to what I usually experience in a much smaller inland sea.
 
#179 ·
John, that kinda sail sounds familiar as do those waves. Clear air Gales are strange beasts. Nice story, good lesson.

Pain, I did that to Jody when he came to sail. While he was in the head, we jumped a freighter wake at 7 knots. I didn't smell anything later nor did he complain.
 
#181 ·
Pain, I did that to Jody when he came to sail. While he was in the head, we jumped a freighter wake at 7 knots. I didn't smell anything later nor did he complain.
NICE!!!!!!!!!!!!! If you can't abuse your friends, who CAN you abuse?

Though if he didn't complain, that sounds suspicious. He may have cleaned up with something from your clothes locker as revenge.
 
#180 ·
Welcome Hog! I second that motion. I mean, his tale had foreign languages, exotic locales, rank bodily fluids, and everything! Kind of like Art Cinema with a serious edge.

BTW - have you been able to keep your rail in the water? Do the 30s have as much freeboard as the 27s? I'm getting discouraged here, dude. Help a brother out!
 
#186 ·
smackdaddy, great thread. I'd rep you, but I don't know how. I posted this in the "learning to sail" section a while ago:

So Monday was a windy day on the Bay of Quinte. 20 knots, gusting to 25 maybe (no significant wave action). We went sailing with our sailing guru, the guy who guides us through our boating experience. Guru was at the helm, and we flew a 180 and full Main. Wow. He put on a clinic. I'm still trying to digest what I saw. So if you're relatively new to this sailing thing and you can find a great sailor to go out with, do it.

It was a great learning experience with an old salt at the helm, pushing the limits of my boat. We had the rail at the water the whole time, and everybody on board was loving it. The thread brought out some interesting points about teaching and sail choice. But I was kinda bummed by a few of the more negative responses. Nice to see there are others out there who like to push the limits.

Good luck on getting the rail in the water.
 
#191 · (Edited)
smackdaddy, great thread. I'd rep you, but I don't know how. I posted this in the "learning to sail" section a while ago:

So Monday was a windy day on the Bay of Quinte. 20 knots, gusting to 25 maybe (no significant wave action). We went sailing with our sailing guru, the guy who guides us through our boating experience. Guru was at the helm, and we flew a 180 and full Main. Wow. He put on a clinic. I'm still trying to digest what I saw. So if you're relatively new to this sailing thing and you can find a great sailor to go out with, do it..
Saturday I was on Zwick Island at my father-in-law's 65th birthday. His mother, a still-kicking 92, lives in PEC just west of the bridge at Belleville, right on the water. The whole family learned to sail right in that stretch of the Bay. A Shark is just about the perfect boat for there, because it can manage the flukey, sometimes strong air, but it doesn't draw enough to scrape the bottom most places.

Here's the pic I took of a CG "cat cutter":



and here's a picture of us going under the bridge in October, 2005.



You think it's windy there...you should try leaving it out of Presqu'ile Bay in a 30 knot nor'easterly! Don't let the small waves fool you...we were doing seven knots under just a No. 3.



 
#187 ·
Farmboy - welcome! And thanks for the post - that sounds like the perfect BFS in my book. Now it's your turn at the helm, dude!

And please - don't ever rep me! I'm still trying to get back to "0". It's just embarrassing to have any "rep power" whatsoever around here. From what I can see it just means you're old and cranky.

You do bring up the crux of it all...how can ANY sailor out there flame good, hard sailing - EVER? That's been mystifying me since day one on this site. And I've bloodied my knuckles ever since chatting about the philosophy with those nay-sayers. BTW - point them out to me and I'll go give them a pop.

Consider BFS your home away from dipping a rail. Good to have you. Now go throw down something big.
 
#190 · (Edited)
Bring it on porkchop! And BTW - I read your thread and, believe it or not, they were pretty tame. There's just this huge fear of leading newbies down some path of "sailing wickedness". So they chant the "sail flat" mantra. Then, some of those guys just like to hang around the true newbie threads and pimp it - kind of like unemployed 20-year-olds still trying to hit on the high-schoolers. Either way, you just have to beat them into submission. Trust me - I know.
 
#192 ·
NO offense, but I have a Catalina as well - and there is no such thing as a "BIG SAIL" on such.... what exactly are you sailing on or should I rephrase sailing while under the influence of...You are kinda like a 30 yr old still trying to hit on Mrs Robinson as you still think that is the only chance to experience manhood.... geez
 
#193 · (Edited)
Now, now Jody - this isn't the place to be harshing boats, dude. Plenty of other threads for that. And anyway - of course one can have all kinds of BFS on a Catalina - even a C27, or any other boat for that matter! Plenty of great BFS stories already here to prove that. So you might want to refer back to page one for the definition of BFS. Yet, even in old salt terms, don't forget our C27 pal Childress. You gonna call him a chump?

And anyway, you have to admit, Mrs. Robinson was pretty hot back in the day. Definitely wouldn't mind giving that a tangle. Cu-cu-ca-chu. Say no more.
 
#195 ·
Great BFS and PHE Valiente! Actually the best evidence is that last photo. Sweet crew you have following in your footsteps dude! And I especially appreciate the peanut butter and juice box in the galley for said crew. You're living the life man! BTW - I bet that 92-year-old still packs a punch too, huh. I hope she likes you.
 
#196 ·
Valiente,

Great pics. Makes me want to get home to my boat. I have yet to venture around to that side of the island, but I'm sure it'll happen. 30 knots from the NE? Must have been a sweet broad reach back to the big smoke. You're right on about Sharks. Its been a season and a half, and we love it. The wind can sure be fluky, especially in mid-summer. One of the best lessons my guru has taught me is how to ghost through the lulls and use the puffs. It is very satisfying to move the boat nicely along in very little wind.

On to my next BFS. Thanksgiving 2004 (mid October up here in Canada) and a bunch of us headed out on my buddy's C&C Viking 28. He and his brother wanted to fly the spin. It was steady wind, maybe 15 knots. Now the aforementioned brothers are both good sailors, but rarely sail together. I was on the foredeck looking after things up there, and up went the kite. I'm not really sure what happened in the cockpit, but there was a lot of confusion, and the wind was building quickly. It was one of those downwind moments where everything seems serene, and then you look at the shore and go "Holy crap, were are MOVING." So then I look ahead and see that we are not going to clear the point without a jibe, and I have no interest in that maneuver given the bickering I hear from the cockpit. For several hundred yards before the point, it is very shallow with a mud bottom (Speed is still building). So I turn back and say in a matter of fact way "Guys, we have 30 seconds to douse the spin and head up or we will be aground." All conversation stops and we get the job done. Rest of the downwind leg was on the main only, nice and relaxed. To come back to harbour we pointed up, put up the #3 jib, and dropped the main. Waves were 3 ft., which is huge for little Picton Bay, and the wind was howling out of the NW. We were close hauled with the rail in the water regularly (and I know Smack, the waves don't count.) Spray was flying back the boat, and everyone was loving it. For one of the girls on the boat, it was her first sail ever. She had as much fun as anyone else. We had no wind speed instruments, but I would have to think in the 30 range. Knot meter was running 8 to 9. Top notch sail.
 
#198 ·
Valiente,

Great pics. Makes me want to get home to my boat. I have yet to venture around to that side of the island, but I'm sure it'll happen. 30 knots from the NE? Must have been a sweet broad reach back to the big smoke.
It was. The next day, we left from Cobourg, which is about 65 NM of sailing to our dock. The wind was still pretty wild, maybe 24-28 knots, same direction, and we left late, about 8:30, and arrived at end of dusk, about 7 PM, for an AVERAGE speed of about 6.5 knots, which is something to sustain with only a beat-up Number 3 up (We hoisted the main in the last two hours at Pickering as the wind gradually dropped to 15 or so.

Aside from a close call with the now-retired Rochester ferry leaving the Eastern Gap, we had a great run that day. But the lake can go either way: five days previously, we had motoring almost all the way to Cobourg because of the complete absence of wind, including a mid-lake jerry can refuel! This was the morning we left (assuming we'd have to push it to get to Cobourg in one leg).


By the way, I know the Viking 28, and it's a sweet little racer if you don't need to stand up in it. It's the "little brother" to my Viking 33, and is a tough boat...a little like a "stretch Shark", I suppose.
 
#197 · (Edited)
Here's a post from "DuckDuckGoose" from the "Seamanship/When you don't go out" thread - and it's pretty revealing I think. I've invited her over - hopefully she'll actually come back to Sailnet and see it. Enjoy:

"Just a question/observation for you guys from across the pond.

Coming from a completely different sailing mentality here in Ireland, some of the sailing that goes on in the US seems rather bizarre. I was in Washington DC a while ago and going down the Potomac on a river boat thing and passed a sailing club. There was a reasonable strong force 2 out, probably gusting a gentle force 3. Yet no matter how hard I looked, I could not see a single boat where anyone was hiking out, on a trapeze or pointing properly. Even as a ten year old out in a strong force 3 I had been taught to hike out and to point properly. Why are schools teaching poor standards? If it's too heavy to point, reef and have the traveller down to leeward so you can point. If you still can't point, you shouldn't be out as you're overpowered.

My father has also taken note of this too. He's over and back to the USA very regularly and was looking into becoming a member of a sailing club in Boston and taking out a boat now and then. He was told that you can't use a headsail unless you've been assessed with a headsail on (completely ignoring numerous certificates - yachtasters!!!!!) but to be assessed with a headsail you had to have someone with you but can't take someone out with more than one sail unless you've been assessed! What's that about? He looked around and sure enough, everyone was sailing with only one sail! He was also told that he can't go out in anything more than 8-10kts. 8-10kts is NOTHING. Why such ignorance?

I really can't understand this mentality! If you have a boat with more than one sail, you should be learning to sail it with ALL sails. Why on earth is heresy being preached? Or am I missing something?"

Amen - sister.
 
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