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Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Gear & Maintenance > Electrical - How will it all work together?
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Thread: Electrical - How will it all work together? Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
03-01-2009 06:40 PM
jhaley66
Quote:
Originally Posted by pvanv1 View Post
bluewater is right on the mark. Don't get it too complex. You can either follow the Tanzer diagram, since you already have two banks, or you can do a bw suggests, and just run one for start (only) and the other bank for house (only) like the big diesel aux setups do.

"Can you please help me understand what the emergency diode override does?"

Ah, another one of those complexities of a 2-bank setup. The diodes are there to keep the bilge pump circuit (which is wired to both battery busses) from making connection between both battery banks. They isolate the battery banks. Otherwise, the bilge pump circuit would act like having the switch in "both" all the time.

HTH (hope this helps)
This helps alot, thanks.

I really like this bilge pump arrangement. Can you buy this diode device off the shelf or do you just buy the diodes and install them in the wiring harness? What size diodes did you use on Tanzer?

The only downside I can see is that it may add another point of failure for the bilge pump, although it adds redundancy to the power supply so I suppose it is worth it. I have seen several recommendations to connect the bilge pump directly to the battery (a suggestion I have taken literally and am not even connecting it to the terminal strip).

The previous owner wired a auto/on/off switch to the bilge pump using non marine wiring and switches. I have purchased a rule switch, so I am already planning to revisit this circuit.

Thanks again.

John
03-01-2009 06:23 PM
jhaley66
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluwateronly View Post
Unless you get alternate way to charge bats on the hook your cruising area is limited to staying close to shore power. But, don't fret that dosn't mean you can't have a grand time with what you have. Also, be glad your not dealing with all the issues you would be dealing with an inboard motor, enjoy the simple setup and sail the boat every chance you get instead of waiting for parts and cramped into an engine compartment while you watch your buddies taking off on a great sailing day
Thanks, Bluewater.

I think I will rock along as is for now. However, I have been looking at inexpensive 2 cycle generators. I am thinking that I can convert my old engine compartment to a generator compartment. It already has two ventilation ducts. I am thinking that if I added alot of soundproofing material and made it airtight I might be able to run a generator for a few hours without driving everyone crazy.

In any case, as you suggest, once I get the ac power and charger arrangement going I am ready to sail at will -- which is the primary objective.
03-01-2009 01:28 PM
pvanv1 bluewater is right on the mark. Don't get it too complex. You can either follow the Tanzer diagram, since you already have two banks, or you can do a bw suggests, and just run one for start (only) and the other bank for house (only) like the big diesel aux setups do.

"Can you please help me understand what the emergency diode override does?"

Ah, another one of those complexities of a 2-bank setup. The diodes are there to keep the bilge pump circuit (which is wired to both battery busses) from making connection between both battery banks. They isolate the battery banks. Otherwise, the bilge pump circuit would act like having the switch in "both" all the time.

Likewise, this arrangement allows you to charge either bank (but not both banks) from the alternator. You set the "override" switch to the dead battery, and it bypasses the diode for that bank, charging that bank. Clunky system, as it requires so much manual intervention, and you could accidentally leave the switch in the wrong position. The echo charger is a much more sophisticated setup, and does not require the override switch. You can feed the echo charger from the alternator, and it will divvy up the output for each bank.



"Also, is there any downside to using a small residential breaker box instead of an AC panel? I am constrained by cut-out space where my DC panel resides."

The residential box is likely painted steel, so it will rust pretty fast. The Ancor 553004 (see Electrical Control Panels | Marinco) accommodates the breakers you need, and is quite small (4-1/2 x 5-3/8"). It's cheaper, it's non-corroding plastic, and that's why I chose it. It also uses standard, marine-rated breakers, rather than non-ABYC stab-connection residential units, which would tend to become unreliable in the marine environment.

FWIW, I located my AC panel in a different spot from the DC panel, so there would no confusion. Consider that the "old" standard for DC negative ground was Black (the "new" standard is yellow, but most older boats aren't wired to that standard). AC hot is ALSO black. Wouldn't ever want those two accidentally tied together!

"My DC panel, the three terminal strips attached to it and the back of my battery switch are all uncovered. I assume this violates standards and I can see how it could be a safety hazard since these wires are exposed in my port lazarette, where things are stowed and removed frequently while under sail."

I built a lightweight, 1/4" plywood cover, and finished in west epoxy (with white pigment). Cheap, light, waterproof, complies with ABYC.

HTH (hope this helps)
03-01-2009 01:26 PM
bluwateronly Sounds like you are on the right track. Just want to clear a few things up. First, an outboard of that size will never put out enough amps to charge your Battery. These alternators are expected only to keep running lights goiing on a dingy not charge a house bank I would keep the two battery banks for now and make sure you have running lights, cabin lights etc running off one battery and the other only for the starting. It sounds like you can manually start your motor so It's not such a big deal as us with inboard diesels that take alot of amps to turn the starter and no juice = your hosed. Unless you get alternate way to charge bats on the hook your cruising area is limited to staying close to shore power. But, don't fret that dosn't mean you can't have a grand time with what you have. Also, be glad your not dealing with all the issues you would be dealing with an inboard motor, enjoy the simple setup and sail the boat every chance you get instead of waiting for parts and cramped into an engine compartment while you watch your buddies taking off on a great sailing day
03-01-2009 11:40 AM
jhaley66
Quote:
Originally Posted by pvanv1 View Post
1. The 20a charger puts out 20a at 12vdc. That translates into only 2a (plus losses) on the 120v side (ohm's law). Figure the 12v amps are roughly 10x the 120v amps. So no, the 10a breaker does not ever trip. I could have used a 5a breaker, but the 10 was on the shelf.
Doh! Ohms law.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pvanv1 View Post
The panel is installed in a bulkhead, and the back is covered (per ABYC standards) to keep everything neat and safe.
My DC panel, the three terminal strips attached to it and the back of my battery switch are all uncovered. I assume this violates standards and I can see how it could be a safety hazard since these wires are exposed in my port lazarette, where things are stowed and removed frequently while under sail.

I suppose I could put up a plywood panel to cover up the whole area. Have you ever encountered this problem?
03-01-2009 11:09 AM
jhaley66
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickrea View Post
ABYC states that you cannot use alligator clips on the charger connection. The springs die, then the connector drop into the wet bilge areas. Boom.

If you have a propane stove onboard, you are going to want an ignition protected marine charger. Propane gas is heavier than air and drops into the bilge spaces where your charger is most likely located. Boom.

ABYC also requires a breaker on the incoming shorepower AC within 10' of the deck connector. You need a double breaker, 1 on the hot, 1 on the neutral with a polarity warning system,
so that if the shorepower connector on the dock is electrically reversed the power is physicaly shut off by the breaker. All AC outlets should be GFCI outlets as you are dealing with water everywhere. Look at and print off this diagram to get an idea of what is required. The boat attached to the diagram is a so it'll fit your boat without problem.
Thanks much for the diagram. Can you please help me understand what the emergency diode override does?

Also, is there any downside to using a small residential breaker box instead of an AC panel? I am constrained by cut-out space where my DC panel resides.
03-01-2009 10:24 AM
pvanv1 We sell all this stuff in our store, where I'm the manager. You can get this stuff pretty much at any decent chandlery, either online, catalog, or locally.

We ship anywhere, so if you are caught short, PM me, and I'll see what we can do.
03-01-2009 10:16 AM
wind_magic
Quote:
Originally Posted by pvanv1 View Post
Not manually soldering to get tinning. Good, marine-grade wire, such as Ancor brand, has each strand individually tinned before stranding. Reduces corrosion.
Pvanv1, do you know of a good source for these components other than going to the distributor for each particular company, some big company that sells all of it ? I know you can order various things like this through West Marine, but is there another popular place to buy stuff like this ?

Thank you.
03-01-2009 10:11 AM
pvanv1 Not manually soldering to get tinning. Good, marine-grade wire, such as Ancor brand, has each strand individually tinned before stranding. Reduces corrosion.
03-01-2009 10:07 AM
wind_magic
Quote:
Originally Posted by pvanv1 View Post
Lack of reliability, less safety, lower resale value, and increased incurance premiums.
So basically nothing bad happens then. (joking!)

Someone above mentioned tinning the stranded wires, I've read at least one place (?) that tinning the wires isn't a good idea because that tends to be where stranded wires break is where they have been tinned. The theory I think is that by tinning the wire you are taking away its ability to flex, and since boats are constantly in motion eventually the wire fails where the tin ends and the wire begins. I would think covering the tinned wire with enough heat shrink tubing to cause it to flex further up the wire would be helpful.
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