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Go Back   SailNet Community > Out There > Cruising & Liveaboard Forum > Production Boats and the Limits
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Thread: Production Boats and the Limits Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
30 Minutes Ago 02:40 AM
aeventyr60
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
LOL! I take a different view, actually... If I'm headed off to parts unknown, I want to have as many fenders, docklines, and a long powercord as I can manage because, well, You Never Know... :-)

I want to have sufficient fenders not only for my own boat, but extra for another in the event I'm forced into a situation where someone else might have to raft alongside...

There's always gonna be some place - Marina Hemingway in Havana during a norther is one that comes to mind - where you can't possibly have too many fenders... Or, extension cords, for that matter :-)

The upside is, the excellent Havana Club rum you can buy there is cheaper than most anything you could have filled your lazarette with from elsewhere...

:-)
Silly me, my cruizeheimers acting up. I forgot to get rid of my 1500' of anchor rode, 5 anchors, storm jib, trysail, down wind pole etc, etc, etc in lieu of a few "extra fenders" to protect me from some other lame ass sailors. Those dinghies they have hanging from those davits work real well as fenders....

What's extra power cords? You mean you have to plug in?

Smackys biggest challenge will be finding enough room for the mountain of food he will need to feed his erstwhile crew. Can't have enough lucky charms for kids these days.
1 Hour Ago 01:22 AM
JonEisberg
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
What was that whole comprehension thing you were talking about earlier?

Here's another description:

B&R 23 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Strength, stability, simplicity, decreased weight aloft, more sail area possible, better distribution of loads...

And another, more in-depth description...

The Insider's Guide to Choosing and Buying a Yacht

Try to pay really close attention to the few pages discussing the rig. Yes, there are limitations with the swept-back spreaders like you mention...but obviously not enough to dissuade virtually the entire industry from adopting them.

Do we need the crayons again?
Ahhh, I think I see the problem... You seem to be confusing, or equating, the B&R rig with any and every other rig that features deeply swept spreaders...

That rig on the Beneteau Oceanis, for instance, with its backstay, and absence of double diagonals, would seem to have few of the purported advantages of the B&R, while retaining all of the disadvantages of deeply swept spreaders...
2 Hours Ago 12:38 AM
smackdaddy
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
According to smack's video, sounds like they offer "A BETTER RIDE"...

I know, such technical nautical terminology might be confusing to some...

:-)
What was that whole comprehension thing you were talking about earlier?

Here's another description:


Quote:
The B&R 23 is equipped with the patented ‘B&R rig’.[1][2] The main characteristics of the rig include:

two rigid struts supporting the lower section of the mast
no backstays
30 degree swept spreaders
double diamond shrouding

Benefits of the B&R rig are:

decreased load of mast foot - load spread over three points, allows for smaller mast section, decreasing weight
increased strength of rig
the loading of the mast, shrouds and mast foot is decreased
allows for a large leach in mainsail
Strength, stability, simplicity, decreased weight aloft, more sail area possible, better distribution of loads...

And another, more in-depth description...

The Insider's Guide to Choosing and Buying a Yacht

Try to pay really close attention to the few pages discussing the rig. Yes, there are limitations with the swept-back spreaders like you mention...but obviously not enough to dissuade virtually the entire industry from adopting them.

Do we need the crayons again?
2 Hours Ago 12:24 AM
JonEisberg
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by MedSailor View Post
So while we argue about the disadvantages of swept back spreaders....

What ARE the advantages?

Medsailor
According to smack's video, sounds like they offer "A BETTER RIDE"...

I know, such technical nautical terminology might be confusing to some...

:-)
3 Hours Ago 12:00 AM
smackdaddy
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by MedSailor View Post
So while we argue about the disadvantages of swept back spreaders....

What ARE the advantages?

Medsailor

PS I am a neutral party here bevause my boat has one mast with regular spreaders and one with swept.
The advantages are simple...with such spreaders you can fit a spa on the boat.

Actually, here's one of the better explanations of the B&R rig I've seen:

3 Hours Ago 11:51 PM
MedSailor
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

So while we argue about the disadvantages of swept back spreaders....

What ARE the advantages?

Medsailor

PS I am a neutral party here bevause my boat has one mast with regular spreaders and one with swept.
3 Hours Ago 11:21 PM
smackdaddy
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Yeah, I guess it's just me...

And John Harries... And Colin Speedie... looks like Steve Benjamin, as well...

Oh, and a French guy named Jean-Francois Eeman, who just happens to be building one of the most awesome offshore/expedition-style yachts on the planet today, the Boreal 44:



so, I guess it's just us 5 dinosaurs, still awaiting the end-of-discussion rationale that settles once and for all the superiority of such deeply swept spreaders on a boat like that Beneteau, and why it's better not to be able to fully ease the boom when the situation might warrant... :-)



Sorry, but such a comparison between a fully-crewed Volvo Race boat - which has ability to sail so fast as to pull the apparent wind angle far forward even when sailing the deepest of angles - and the type of displacement boats the vast majority of cruising sailors sail shorthanded, is simply laughable...

You really suppose the Caribbean 1500 rally tracker is gonna look anything remotely like this?

:-)

Well, I guess comparing the VO boats to production cruisers is a bit of a stretch. About the same as comparing an "offshore/expedition-style yacht" to a production cruiser. So we're all guilty, right?

I think the advantages were discussed above. If you don't buy it - that's okay. A lot of others do.

BTW - your MC article has this photo:



It's a dual headsail config. Do they even have the main out on this one? Swept-back spreaders wouldn't be an issue here, right? And you probably want to have a word with Harries about that fender stowage I would imagine.
4 Hours Ago 11:04 PM
JonEisberg
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Look, it's not just inexperienced me that disagrees with your viewpoint. It's pretty much the entire modern yachting industry as shown above.
Yeah, I guess it's just me...

And John Harries... And Colin Speedie... looks like Steve Benjamin, as well...

Oh, and a French guy named Jean-Francois Eeman, who just happens to be building one of the most awesome offshore/expedition-style yachts on the planet today, the Boreal 44:

Quote:
You are not wrong ! For a (blue water) cruising boat made to last, there are, according to me, no valuable reasons to have swept back spreaders.

Swept Back Spreaders A Disadvantage On An Offshore Cruising Sailboat
so, I guess it's just us 5 dinosaurs, still awaiting the end-of-discussion rationale that settles once and for all the superiority of such deeply swept spreaders on a boat like that Beneteau, and why it's better not to be able to fully ease the boom when the situation might warrant... :-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
BUT, the new VO65s do (along with all the other cruising boats I showed above). And they and the rest of the industry has thousands of times more experience than even I, or you, do.

So whaddayagonnado?
Sorry, but such a comparison between a fully-crewed Volvo Race boat - which has ability to sail so fast as to pull the apparent wind angle far forward even when sailing the deepest of angles - and the type of displacement boats the vast majority of cruising sailors sail shorthanded, is simply laughable...

You really suppose the Caribbean 1500 rally tracker is gonna look anything remotely like this?

:-)

5 Hours Ago 09:24 PM
smackdaddy
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Well, I haven't said that, of course... I'm only saying that in many situations, sailing DDW can be the much preferred, simpler, and safer option... A few examples from recent trips that happened to feature an unusual amount of DDW sailing...
Maybe - but I certainly wouldn't buy a boat tailored to these very rare circumstances, giving up many, many other advantages...circumstances that still can be overcome by sailing a slightly different angle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
LOL! Well, for a dude who has yet to go much of anywhere under sail, the strength with which you hold some opinions which may not necessarily be "based in reality", or informed by first hand experience, can be pretty amusing, sometimes...

:-)
Well, I've done it a few times actually...





It was slow and not that much more comfortable. I would have MUCH rather sailed with an assym - but we were in the non-spin class. You'll notice in the above photo that the spreaders on this Pearson are not swept back - but the angle of this main would cause no problems on my Hunter that does have the swept-back spreaders. So it's not really an issue. I could WoW just like this on my Hunter.

So, see, we've both sailed WoW on the ocean. You've done it quite a bit more - around icebergs apparently. Respect for that.

That still does nothing to convince me of your premise that swept-back spreaders are a liability for cruising when you can easily sail a few degrees hotter with either an assym if the weather is good...or reefed down if it's stinky. OR even still WoW with a slightly less deep main. Of course, if your navigation choices leave you no other options than DDW, I guess that's an issue too.

Look, I have absolutely NOTHING against your spreaders. You just seem to have something against everyone else's. So it's not just inexperienced me that disagrees with your viewpoint. It's pretty much the entire modern yachting industry as shown above.

Granted, the VO70 (Camper) I looked at a few months ago in the UK didn't have swept back spreaders:

VO70 SmackTour | SmackTalk!

BUT, the new VO65s do (along with all the other cruising boats I showed above). And they and the rest of the industry has thousands of times more experience than even I, or you, do.

So whaddayagonnado?
6 Hours Ago 09:05 PM
JonEisberg
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Can you walk me through some situations (based in reality please) where one HAS NO OPTION BUT to sail DDW in big seas?
Well, I haven't said that, of course... I'm only saying that in many situations, sailing DDW can be the much preferred, simpler, and safer option... A few examples from recent trips that happened to feature an unusual amount of DDW sailing...

Running this H-R 43 from Trinidad to Annapolis...





Once we had crossed the Caribbean and cleared the Mona Passage, due to the development of a system in the NW Caribbean that eventually became TS Andrea, we elected to pass south of the Turks & Caicos, and up thru the Mayaguana Passage and Exuma Sound, rather than going offshore to the E of the Bahamas... Our course was gonna be pretty close to DDW all the way. Passing to the N of the Dominican Republic, in order to stay clear of the tremendous amount of shipping passing thru there, we stayed to the N of the shipping lanes. However, that places one in close proximity to the dangers of the Silver Bank, and then the Caicos Bank...

That boat was poorly set up for sailing wing & wing, the aluminum pole weighed a ton, and we had to resort to using dock lines as fore and afterguys, and for the preventer... We were seeing a trememdous amount of squall activitiy, and so while trying to maintain a narrow track between the shipping and the Silver Bank, I was very happy we were sailing a boat that was very manageable sailing DDW, or even a bit by the lee... Especially given some of the intense squall activity we were subjected to at night, that passage would have become an incredible PITA if we were having to gybe our way downwind...

Now, had we continued up the Old Bahama Channel instead, we would have encountered one of the better situations anywhere where sailing DDW would have been definitely the way to go:





That narrow slot between Cuba and the the Great Bahama Bank can be truly like running a gauntlet, with a steady procession of cruise ships and merchant vessels threading the needle between the unlit reefs fringing the Bank to the north, and the dangerous reefs along the N shore of Cuba, whose lighthouses may or may not be operational at any given time... The prevailing breeze, of course, generally blows right up that channel... I'll take my chances sailing DDW along the reefs to the north, thank you... You want to gybe back and forth thru all that ship traffic instead, you're welcome to it..

After we'd hunkered down in Ft Pierce for the passage of TS Andrea, we hitched a ride on the Stream up to Hatteras, in a strong breeze that got us to Annapolis in under 4 days... Once abeam of the GA-FL line, again it was DDW all the way to Hatteras... Again, if you'd rather be gybing every couple of hours to remain in in the axis of the Stream, have fun with that...

Sailing my own boat this summer, I wound up having an incredible amount of sailing DDW... All the way from Nantucket to Cape Breton, then the entire distance from the Great Bras 'd Or up thru the Strait of Belle Isle, and beyond... The few hundred miles along the very straight western coast of Newfoundland, the prevailing wind runs directly parallel to the coastline, and most of the sailing I had was in pretty sporty conditions...





Now, maybe it's just me, but I'd much prefer to avoid having to gybe repeatedly in such conditions, especially when running very happily under a reefed main eased all the way out, and the autopilot handling it all quite nicely. Anyone who would rather be tacking downwind along that coast, well, my hat's off to you...

There's one major limitation of doing so, however, at least for a singlehander like me... By gybing downwind on such a passage along such a coast, a solo sailor will taking the possibility of getting some rest off the table for roughly half the passage... Perhaps some solo sailors out there might be brave enough to go to sleep while on the starboard gybe, thus on a course closing with the coast, but I'm not one of them... :-)

But on any circumnavigation of Newfoundland, or passage on up to Labrador or beyond, the Strait of Belle Isle is really where the fun begins:





Another narrow gauntlet, where ship traffic lanes occupy much of the passage... The wind only blows one of 2 directions thru there, either SW or NE, and with the acceleration effect created by the winds from either the Gulf of St Lawrence, or the N Atlantic Ocean, being squeezed thru that gap, the Strait is well known for its honking breezes... And with a strong SW-setting current, the seas in a SW blow can stand up pretty good...

It was blowing a solid 30 when I ran thru there headed north... Oh, and did I mention the FOG which tends to settle in the Strait? Then, of course, there are these little bergy bits that crop up here and there - they're not transmitting AIS, unfortunately...





Running the Belle Isle gauntlet was some of the hairest sailing I've had in awhile, I was VERY glad I was simply able to manage a course DDW thru there, hugging the Labrador shore in an effort to avoid the worst of the fog, and keep clear of the downbound traffic lane... Again, anyone who would rather have been gybing back and forth across those shipping lanes, have fun... But I'm getting too old for that sh_t, I don't need those sexy swept spreaders, I'm quite content with my "ancient, outdated" inline shrouds...

That rig delivered me DDW to the beautiful Henley Harbor in one piece, after only one Chicken Gybe, whereupon I unwound while anchored beneath The Devil's Dining Table, with more than a couple of celebratory Manhattans, chilled with some ice that had wandered into the harbor from Greenland... :-)






Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
And how exactly do the spreaders make it difficult to reef the main? I do it all the time - pretty easily. Maybe I'm missing something here.
Perhaps having tried to do so when sailing deep in a strong breeze is what's missing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
For a dude who's sailed a million miles, your examples are pretty hair-brained sometimes.
LOL! Well, for a dude who has yet to go much of anywhere under sail, the rigidity with which you hold some opinions which may not necessarily be "based in reality", or informed by first hand experience, can be pretty amusing, sometimes...

:-)
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