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Go Back   SailNet Community > Out There > Cruising & Liveaboard Forum > Production Boats and the Limits
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Thread: Production Boats and the Limits Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
1 Day Ago 02:50 PM
smackdaddy
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Undoubtedly, it's due to my bitterness over my lack of the cash sufficient to buy a late model production boat - much less a Boreal, or an Outbound - and my resentment at being stuck with an "old boat", instead...
Oh. Well you shouldn't worry about stuff like that. You have a nice boat. Just enjoy it.
1 Day Ago 02:50 PM
outbound
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Jon
You can have mine at a good price when I'm done.
1 Day Ago 02:46 PM
JonEisberg
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
This thread really seems to bother you. Why?
Undoubtedly, it's due to my bitterness over my lack of the cash sufficient to buy a late model production boat - much less a Boreal, or an Outbound - and my resentment at being stuck with an "old boat", instead...

Nah, this thread doesn't "bother" me...

"Amuses me", is more like it...

:-)
1 Day Ago 02:41 PM
outbound
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

On the Outbounds owners chat room seems Phil is in the process of doing hull # 60. He is long pass paying off his tooling. Same of the Passports which are built in the same yard. The materials and man hours make up the expense. When I had some involvement with a small boat building company in Wareham MA. was educated as to,how builders work out price. As Chinese labor costs go up I don't expect outbounds or passports price to go down.
As the bits used are the usual lewmar,harken, New England rope etc. don't expect supplying venders costs to go down. Chemical costs may decline with fall in oil price but I doubt this will have much impact.
Having solid wood and other construction details mean Hylas,outbound,passport etc. at a much lower price point than Morris, Hinckley, NEB etc. means these boats wil look good for decades and a refit means refinishing not replacing. Doubt builders will change as it would hurt their primary target market.
Things have changed since " desirable and undesirable....." But the ocean hasn't. Judging between an old boat like a v40 or V50 (with minimal interior volume for loa ) and the headaches of inheriting someone else mistakes or a new production boat aimed at coastal cruising not set up for passagemaking I opted out. Many do. That's why Phil is on #60, HR is going strong and Bene keeps on buying out its smaller competitors. The market continues to evolve coastal v. offshore production v. one offs v. high latitude v. high tech racers. And so forth. Even Bene offers different lines. It continues to consolidate as well.
1 Day Ago 12:28 PM
miatapaul
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Have any been built yet?
No, and I doubt they ever will be. I think it is more of an opportunity to discuss what an ideal offshore boat is. I do like the idea of a strongly built bare-bones boat, but I doubt there is enough market for it. But it is out of my current price range anyway, though after the divorce is settled, kids get out of college and I have a few more years of working I might be able to consider it. Oh hell, that puts me at about 80 years old, so at that point if it does not matter if it lasts much more than 10 years I guess!

What I could see happening is a company like Outbound, Passport, or another "limited production" company seeing the interest and offer one of there boats with a "laminate interior" but keep the strong built offshore features. Seems they could offer the boat at a much lower price point and they are not driven by volume like the big guys. They would have limited expenses as they could perhaps use an older model if they still have the molds and base it on that.
1 Day Ago 12:17 PM
smackdaddy
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
N- good idea
My list would be
Ergonomics- above and below decks
Sailing ability- light air and storm conditions as well as typical wind sailing polar.
Miles per gallon under power at cruising speed
Maneuverability under power i.e. docking
Serviceability- systems and cosmetics
Durability- hull,deck,fittings and infill
Comfort- motion,sleeping, environment ( airflow,temperature, exposure to sun,wind,noise,wet) above and below decks
Quality of life at anchor and underway e.g. Ease of ADLs, accessability of storage, amount of storage, amount of tankage etc.
Ease and expense of maintenance
Ease and expense of repair
Survivability- passive and active in storms, down flooding, collisions,systems failures
Ease of assessment of integrity before passage i.e. hull, rigging, fittings, appendenages
Quality of life at anchor and underway
I used a list close to this when boat shopping. Concerns when living aboard and traveling are different then when I was a weekend sailor. Regardless of Smackdaddy diatribes I think this is reflected in the offerings of the various production boats in current manufacture.
Now, Out, let's not get carried away. They are not diatribes. They are facts. Yes, diatribes would be easier for you in your line of thinking - but, alas, they are facts.

I've been very clear as to what "production boats" are in terms of this debate: CE Cat A BeneJeneHunterBavarLinas. And I (and others) have provided plenty of factual evidence - both here and at CF - for precisely what these boats are capable of.

Now as to your most excellent list above - I completely agree. Though I'm currently addressing 2 leaks in two of the many hatches on my Hunter 40, every other box is very nicely ticked. Well except "survivability". That's a tough one to quantify until it actually survives. However, I do have direct evidence that Hunters have indeed survived "survival" storms very well. So, let's go ahead and tick that one too.
1 Day Ago 11:56 AM
smackdaddy
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Nah, you don't get it...

The reason a buyer of a popular coastal cruising boat STARTS a thread like this is born solely from a generosity pf spirit, in order to provide a platform that will ENABLE the buyers of "old boats" to work out their "their mental justification process"...

:-)
This thread really seems to bother you. Why?
1 Day Ago 11:28 AM
JonEisberg
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by MedSailor View Post
Has anyone written the book DESIRABLE AND UNDESIRABLE CHARACTERISTICS OF LIVEABOARD YACHTS AT ANCHOR?




It would be fascinating to compare the two treatises see where the overlap is and where the painful compromises are.

MedSailor
LOL! Hell, any Beneteau SenseBoat brochure pretty much cuts to the chase...

It's all about the swim platform/open stern... Why watch the sunset and drink your wine while lounging on those nice cockpit cushions, when you can cuddle up on bare teak substitute, and have your pick of 2 wheels to use as your backrest?

:-)





What amazes me about some of these New Wave open transom designs, is how much actual STRUCTURE has been removed from the hull... I mean, a boat's transom is a pretty vital component of the overall structure/strength/integrity of the hull, no?

Hell, that seems to me the equivalent of removing a boat's main bulkhead, no?

Oh, wait...




Oh, well... I suppose as long as they've kept the mast compression post, it's all good...

:-)
1 Day Ago 11:15 AM
MedSailor
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Seems to me that your continuing focus on PRICE completely misses the point of this discussion...

Outbound's criteria listed above seems a most excellent baseline... It's very much along the lines of the reference I have cited here repeatedly, the work DESIRABLE AND UNDESIRABLE CHARACTERISTICS OF OFFSHORE YACHTS...

It is primarily CHARACTERISTICS of design and constuction that define the suitability of any sailing yacht for offshore work...
Has anyone written the book DESIRABLE AND UNDESIRABLE CHARACTERISTICS OF LIVEABOARD YACHTS AT ANCHOR?




It would be fascinating to compare the two treatises see where the overlap is and where the painful compromises are.

MedSailor
1 Day Ago 10:37 AM
JonEisberg
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don0190 View Post
I also took those into consideration when boat shopping. Except I was more open minded and once I opened the door a Hunter answered all of them excellently.

In the end people who buy more expensive boats are going to use the same old story on why they needed to do so. And they will probably say just how ridiculous people who spent more than they did are (those people probably used the same story).
Seems to me that your continuing focus on PRICE completely misses the point of this discussion...

Outbound's criteria listed above seems a most excellent baseline... It's very much along the lines of the reference I have cited here repeatedly, the work DESIRABLE AND UNDESIRABLE CHARACTERISTICS OF OFFSHORE YACHTS...

It is primarily CHARACTERISTICS of design and constuction that define the suitability of any sailing yacht for offshore work... There is absolutely no reason why such a vital feature such as safe and practical deck and cockpit ergonomics should cost more, or are likely to be found only on more expensive boats...

The primary problem is that most modern production boats are conceived from the inside out, and designed around the accomodation plan and the goal of maximizing interior volume... Unfortunately, that usually comes at the expense of making compromising exterior characteristics that make boats better for sailing offshore... That has nothing to do with the price point any particular boat is being built to, but rather simply reflects the choice(s) made by a builder, and what segment of the market they've decided to target...

Pretty much the whole point of a project of the ADVENTURE 40, after all, there's no inherent reason why a boat designed for offshore and more rigorous cruising should have to be EXPENSIVE...
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