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Go Back   SailNet Community > Out There > Cruising & Liveaboard Forum > Production Boats and the Limits
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Thread: Production Boats and the Limits Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
32 Minutes Ago 09:26 PM
jorgenl
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
C'mon, out - that's only there for the Boat Shows, you don't think that's actually for sleeping, do you?

Looks more like a space to be dedicated to FENDER STOWAGE, to me... :-)

Anyone going out for more than a weekend away from a marina on one of those, you're gonna have to convert one of those aft playpens into a garage...




Hmmm, an OPENING PORTLIGHT in the hull??? Yeah, what could POSSIBLY go wrong... :-)


So, Jon - what is different with the Morris ? Front cabin / V-berth seems similar.

Oh yeah - the Morris has a forward galley - good for sangers underway isn't it? Especially considering the lack of impossible to retrofit handholds....

Any anectodotal evidence that portlights in the hull are a problem, or just unfounded opinion? (yeah I've seen the picture of the boat in Charleston City Marina, not the boats problem, idjit owner....)
58 Minutes Ago 09:00 PM
aeventyr60
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

"Where do you come up with this stuff????? I have a 14 year old Hunter and the biggest hardest to do age problem I've had to do was replace the head hoses?"

I understand Hunters age well at the dock. How much sailing have you actually done on your boat. It is going to be a different story once you get offshore. If the the hardest thing you've had to do is replace a head hose then a whole new world of hurt is coming your way.
1 Hour Ago 08:12 PM
Exile1
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
C'mon, out - that's only there for the Boat Shows, you don't think that's actually for sleeping, do you?

Looks more like a space to be dedicated to FENDER STOWAGE, to me... :-)

Anyone going out for more than a weekend away from a marina on one of those, you're gonna have to convert one of those aft playpens into a garage...




Hmmm, an OPENING PORTLIGHT in the hull??? Yeah, what could POSSIBLY go wrong... :-)


Who cares about an opening portlight in the hull when I just looked it up and discovered you are absolutely correct -- it's "DOWDY" not "DOUGHTY!" In fact, "doughty" means brave & persistent (must be another Brit word) -- character traits I wouldn't necessarily deny Smack's gal from a few posts ago, but clearly doesn't apply to the Morris' salon cushions. (Don't worry Jon, I love Morris' just not those particular cushions.). Just when I thought I had the pennant/pendant thing figured out too. As for Smack's squeeze, she doesn't look dingy but her clothes do seem a tad dingy, no? All I can say is I'd be a bit scared to let her ride in my dinghy.

2 Hours Ago 07:54 PM
Exile1
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
To me - this gets to the REAL heart of the matter...that is, longevity.

Let's start with the Hunter to Bristol comparison. Both are 20-year-old boats. The 20-year-old Hunter seems to be having real issues, the Bristol is apparently not.
Now, discounting the fact that this kind of anecdotal comparison really doesn't mean much, let's stick with it as a straight-across comparison.

The takeaway would be that IF YOU WANT A BOAT THAT YOU WANT TO OWN AND SAIL HARD FOR 20 YEARS - Hunter is not a great choice. Bristol, or Hinckley, or Morris, or IP, or whatever would be a much better choice.

Now, I honestly don't think anyone around here would argue that point. I wouldn't.

BUT, if owning and sailing a single boat for 20 years is NOT what you're after, things start to change pretty drastically when you begin to look at shorter-term value (as Chall is talking about above).

IF you want a boat that you're going to sail for maybe 5-7 years before moving to something "better" (like most people seem to do) - then the calculus is very different. Why pay a "20-year premium" for something you're not going to derive that value from?

In this case, buying a much, much newer production boat for roughly the same amount as a 20-year-old "bluewater boat" can start to make a lot more sense.

Now, this brings us to the Beneteau example - a new boat gone bad. I see these kinds of anecdotal stories all the time. New boats "falling apart in benign conditions". I'm not saying this guy's Bene isn't falling apart - but I AM saying that that doesn't seem to be a common scenario in the thousands of Benes that are out there plying blue water. They are not all "falling apart".

So, as usual, it just depends on what you want, and what you can afford, when you buy a boat.

If I have the choice between this 27-year-old Bristol 53 at $350K and this 1 year old Jeanneau SO 50 at $399K...I'll take the Jeanneau without hesitation.

So, at the end of the day, maybe the actual lesson here is that modern production boats have a "best-by" date of maybe 10 years or so before they start having problems that outweigh their value. In other words, maybe they are "disposable" to some degree?

I think that is an interesting conversation.
Well, it is an interesting conversation Smack, but there are a couple of things I would add to your comments. First, the 27-year old Bristol is probably done depreciating in large part, assuming its condition is maintained of course. But according to Polux, new production boats depreciate about 50% after 5 years. So now you're talking about trading in a 5 year-old production boat that might be worth $100K less than what you could get after those same 5 years with the comparably sized Bristol. Of course, new high-end boats will also get hit hard by depreciation, but that's not the comparison you're making. So I don't think it's quite as simple as whatever your time horizon may be for owning the boat.

Here's another example that is also probably on Yachtworld if you're interested in more detail. There's a Bristol 51 or 53 that was on the market for awhile in the mid-$300K range. After not selling, the owner took it off the market, did over $100K worth of upgrades/improvements, and then re-listed it for $20-30 less (as I recall). Leaving aside whether Bristol's are your cup of tea or production boats are mine, I only mention this to demonstrate the opportunities that are out there for buyers, and have been since the 2007-08 recession hit. While I would agree that many of these older boats are projects, many others are lightly used boats that have been well cared for. This should also be reflected in the price, and if not it probably will be with a prospective buyer's due diligence and market-driven leverage.

Secondly, I'm not sure what design or construction properties go into your calculus when it comes to longevity. I'm not questioning it, just saying I don't know. This too may have more to do with owner maintenance as Don points out. Then again, there are 1000's of individual components that go into a boat, and they can all deviate significantly on quality & price. Just take the all-important shackle that secures your chain to your anchor -- do you want the cheaper no-name one on the shelf at WM, or a more expensive one made by Crosby, for example? Well, the reality is that the WM one may last you a year or two before rusting out, so maybe that's good enough. But repeat that for the choices a mfg. makes on the quality of wiring, plumbing, hoses, rigging, paint, gelcoat, etc., etc. and you can see what I mean. Apparently there's a lot of variations on how an original owner can kit out their new production boat, so part of it's ultimate longevity may depend on this variable alone. Personally, I agree with outbound that quality is generally commensurate with price. When it comes to boats, I don't believe price is necessarily proportional to quality, but I believe it is commensurate nonetheless.

But I think the bottom line on longevity probably has more to do with economics than maybe anything else. Production boats are much less expensive to purchase (new or used), are mfg. in much larger quantities, and depreciate more. This makes them less valuable (financially & perhaps otherwise) to many owners as they age. At some point down the line, some owner questions whether replacing an engine, standing rigging, or other big-ticket refit item is worth it as compared to the boat's value, and suddenly the boat may find itself scrapped. Now compare that to the old, well-kept Bristol, Hinckley, Morris, Swan, etc., and you'll find plenty of old ones with new engines, rigging, & Awlgrip, and looking & performing as good as new.
2 Hours Ago 07:52 PM
JonEisberg
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Does it have bungle boards or another way to actually be usable in a seaway?

Come on Smack, I've always viewed you as a real BFS sailor. Could you sleep there?
C'mon, out - that's only there for the Boat Shows, you don't think that's actually for sleeping, do you?

Looks more like a space to be dedicated to FENDER STOWAGE, to me... :-)

Anyone going out for more than a weekend away from a marina on one of those, you're gonna have to convert one of those aft playpens into a garage...




Hmmm, an OPENING PORTLIGHT in the hull??? Yeah, what could POSSIBLY go wrong... :-)


3 Hours Ago 06:44 PM
outbound
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Does it have bungle boards or another way to actually be usable in a seaway?

Come on Smack, I've always viewed you as a real BFS sailor. Could you sleep there?
3 Hours Ago 06:37 PM
smackdaddy
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Yeah, but the tradeoff for that bordello is sacrificing the comfort and security of a cockpit like this..





...for the precarious perch on a flying bridge better suited to a Sea Ray... :-)

All those people in this freakin' thing should be thinking about putting on harnesses & tethers... Most definitely not a cockpit suited for offshore, IMHO...


Ah, then you should probably focus on the aft cockpit model Hunter 50:



The aft cabin is much more dowdy like the Morris:

3 Hours Ago 06:23 PM
outbound
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Smack has been talking about blue water in his original post. I think some posts are clearly not directed in that line of thinking. In prior was trying to point out that if that Bene was used the way the overwhelming way most sail it probably would do just fine. Put going a couple of thousand miles to windward caused issues.
If that Hunter wasn't used as a live aboard in the tropics, didn't deal with Xmas winds and constant humidity it would probably have done just fine.
But a blue water boat is a blue water boat. That immediately implies:
It will be forced to go to weather for days on end, it will be in humid or cold or rough weather for prolonged periods. It is some ones traveling house for months and years. Often in places with little or no support systems such as the electronic guy or the yard monkeys or even a travel lift.
A quality boat will,endure this type of abuse. It was made with that in mind. You can't get around recent production boats are not aimed at the one or two percent of sailors doing this kind of stuff. They are well designed and well executed for their target audience.

BTW- I've done several Marion to Bermuda races in 20+ year old hinckley B40s and have ocean sailed a hank hinckley ocean 38 older than my 30+ year old kids. They did just fine.
Hell wooden Wm. Fife boats older then all of us put together are still crossing oceans. Quality wins out over time.
3 Hours Ago 06:21 PM
ianjoub
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
All those people in this freakin' thing should be thinking about putting on harnesses & tethers... Most definitely not a cockpit suited for offshore, IMHO...


Interesting thought that I hadn't considered.
4 Hours Ago 05:48 PM
JonEisberg
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
(PS - I bet the aft cabin in that Hunter is WAY more pimpin' than the aft cabin in that Morris.



If it's an older one, it might even have a bathtub!)

Yeah, but the tradeoff for that bordello is sacrificing the comfort and security of a cockpit like this..





...for the precarious perch on a flying bridge better suited to a Sea Ray... :-)

All those people in this freakin' thing should be thinking about putting on harnesses & tethers... Most definitely not a cockpit suited for offshore, IMHO...


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