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Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Boat Review and Purchase Forum > Cruising Catamarans Offshore
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Topic Review (Newest First)
03-03-2005 12:50 PM
Billpjr
Cruising Catamarans Offshore

dman,

Multihulls go faster. In theory they can spend less time in bad weather. In real life, just like Bumfuzzle''s experience (which is major typical and not an exception), they don''t point well enough in anything but silky smooth seas to make the trip shorter.


03-03-2005 12:49 PM
Billpjr
Cruising Catamarans Offshore

dman,

Multihulls go faster. In theory they can spend less time in bad weather. In real life, just like Bumfuzzle''s experience (which is major typical and not an exception), they don''t point well enough in anything but silky smooth seas to make the trip shorter.


02-27-2005 06:11 AM
dman
Cruising Catamarans Offshore

Billpjr I guess no one has an answer to your question.
02-26-2005 02:56 PM
dogboater
Cruising Catamarans Offshore

Paulo, You can laugh out loud if you want to but your examples are worthless. First we were talking about small CRUISING catamarans for limited offshore use. Not one of your links has any info on what the boat is or what they were doing at the time. As to monos being more forgiving, if you''re in conditions that could put you or your vessel in danger, you better be paying attention. If I''m trying to go fast in conditions that I should be thinking about reefing, I''m really paying attention. Yes, you could probably capsize any cat, but if you''re in a situation where that could happen you better be aware of it or you don''t belong out there! General rule of thumb, cats reef for the lulls, monos reef for the puffs. The naysayers out there all seem to feel that cruising cats flip like a Hobie 16. The Gemini 105 is reported to right itself from 85 degrees, and I believe my 3000 is close to that. We went out fishing in the Gulf Stream on a day of small craft advisories (6~10'' seas) as much to see how the boat liked it as to fish. We saw a few sport fishermen (50'' Vikings) out getting the crap beat out of them. Motorsailing with a small jib only, about 40 degrees to the wind. Very comfortable, nobody sick. My wife has a nice dolphin on so I roll up the jib, slow down and am watching the other poles, My friend is on the stern with the gaff, in the excitement of the moment I get beam too, look over my wife''s shoulder at a breaking about 10 footer. Before I could say anyting to anyone we simply rolled right over it. No one else even noticed! I gained a lot of respect for the seaworthiness of my little boat that day. Another story and then I''m done. Last May We went from Key Largo to Boca Grand on Floridas west coast, about 210 miles. All of April and May 2004 blew like stink out of the east, no one fished, people I know blew out sails, nasty 15~30 seemed like forever. Every mono we saw was motoring or motorsailing with reefed sails. All the cats we saw were sailing. Second day out is a broadreach, reefed main and genny. We''re doing 8~10 kts comfortably in a short steep 4 foot chop. I had to steer as the auto pilot couldn''t keep up and all I could think about was what a handfull a mono would be in these conditions, one broach after another. Four days later we''re headed back beating into the same conditions and pass 2 groups of 25~35 foot monos all motorong or motorsailing in the same conditions we were sailing in while my wife read and our labs slept. We listened to them talking about how horrible it was out and that they''d given up on crossing the stream. Cruising on a cat is so superior to a mono there''s no comparison. I''ll trade the slight possibility of capsize for the comfort, safety and seaworthyness of a cat anyday. Now if the US just had more used boats to pick from.
02-25-2005 10:15 AM
PCP
Cruising Catamarans Offshore

Thor, I can not resist. lol!

Here are some more:

http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-cp/history/Loy/USNI.html

http://www.hawaiiocean.com/HOI_Archives/HOI_2000-06/#Casulaties

http://www.ussailing.org/safety/Rescues/8_5_00.htm

http://abc.net.au/nt/news/200502/s1306679.htm

http://www.amsa.gov.au/about_amsa/Media_releases/2002/2002_jun_3.asp

http://www.freep.com/news/statewire/sw105968_20041020.htm

They include sinking catamarans, all cruiser boats.

I also would like to quote a well known (and responsible) cruiser catamaran manufacturer (good cats) who says in his advertising, to help people choose the right sail boat, about multihull safety:



"Capsize is rare with well sailed cruising multihulls...The important factor, as with a car, is that the degree of risk is up to the driver/skipper. Drive or sail too fast for the conditions and the risk of a crash is higher. The decision is yours. It is not taken away from you by a heavy keel below, making it impossible to go fast. Nobody seriously suggests weighing ...a sailboat ... to limit performance, just because a few may not have the skill or maturity to sail a fast type of craft safely.

Thus, like a car, a multihull has the capability of very high speeds when desired, and the risk factor can consequently be higher.

In general, the risk factor will only begin to increase when boat speed exceeds 15 knots while reaching, or about 8 knots to windward.

Capsize thus must always be considered as a possibility, even if a remote one, and be prepared for. In this regard, there should be a special safety compartment that is accessible from both above and below for storing safety gear that will be immediately available if capsized."




I would say this is common sense and that was precisely what I meant when I said in a previous post:


"Main difference (in my opinion) is that an ocean monohull can take a lot more "errors" made by the skipper and need a lot less attention. The boat can take care of himself (almost) no matter what. With a Cat you have to pay a lot more attention to the wind, to the sail the boat carries, regarding the wind. It is not only the speed that is bigger; everything happens a lot faster in a cat, including capsizing."


Paulo
02-25-2005 05:49 AM
Billpjr
Cruising Catamarans Offshore

Eric The Red sailed his 18'' junk rigged homebuilt mono hull across the Atlantic several times. What does that mean? Using examples of boats crossing oceans is a bogus way to prove anything.

Do calculations on windage and see what speeds will kite your multihull and what those same winds do to a monohull. Think about waves that have whitecaps big enough to throw any 50'' boat on it''s beam ends like a pingpong ball. Which boat type will survive being continually pounded with whitecap lips 6'' thick or being tossed on beam ends without capsize or damage. I''ve seen waves like that from the deck of freighters off the east coast USA and they DO exist in ocean sailing. The question is can you stay out of this weather?
02-24-2005 11:48 AM
928frenzy
Cruising Catamarans Offshore

Never say never. It has happened, and (unfortunately) it will happen again.

Since there are far more monohulls than there are cats, one would expect to find more monos capsized and sunk than cats. That proves nothing.

Monos get knocked down more often than sailors like to admit, but they usually come back at least once. The same isn''t true for cats.

~ Happy trails and sails to you ~ _/) ~
02-24-2005 09:58 AM
thorJ30
Cruising Catamarans Offshore

it IS almost impossible to capsize a cruising cat.



from your 5 examples above collected from 3 years around the whole world ....

example 1. ok great lakes are tricky ...

eaxample 2 another great lakes THIS WAS A RACE , again Paulo you seem to deliberately scare people with racing incidents ...

example 3 and 4 are the same incident on a booze cruise catamarane in hawaii ...

example 5 ... well maybe

From your 5 examples I can only view 2 as being valid for comparison ....

Now you have enough time on your hands to find the other 2 incidents in the last 5 years .. when you done I will spend 10 minutes to find 50 sunken monohulls ....



it IS almost impossible to capsize a cruising cat.

Thor
02-24-2005 08:29 AM
PCP
Cruising Catamarans Offshore

Tom, I am not a fundamentalist and I have already said that I like fast Cats. I entered this discussion when somebody had said that "it was almost impossible to capsize a cruising cat" and what I have said has to do with this statement that I have considered vastly exaggerated.

I was curious to see if you are right about the incidence rate of capsizing accidents between monos and cats (of course you have to considerer a correction factor, because there are many monohulls to each cat).

I have made a quick search on the net (only last years), using the key words "capsized, rescue and sailboat” to see what happened.

About monohulls, the ones that capsized, or stayed capsized were dinghies( not considering racing ones that capsized when they lost the keel).

On the other hand, I have found plenty of notices that have made its way to the press about capsized cruising cats (not considering racing ones). And, opposing your personal risk assessment, there are a lot more rescues due to capsizing than the ones due to collision, or sinking, even if they also are reported.

Most of the notices are from 2004. I guess that old news are wiped out of the net, otherwise I would find a lot more regarding other years. Take a look:

http://piersystem.com/external/index.cfm?cid=443&fuseaction=EXTERNAL.docview&docu mentID=55660

http://www.torresen.com/sailing/content_archives/000827.php

http://www.cospas-sarsat.org/FirstPage/article5.htm

http://www.cospas-sarsat.org/FirstPage/article5.htm

http://www.mcga.gov.uk/c4mca/mcga-dops_pr_newsroom-press-releases-release.htm?mcga_news_id=2189&month=4&year=2003

I believe that ocean cats have a good safety margin, but I consider also that ocean monohulls are safer.

Main difference (in my opinion) is that an ocean monohull can take a lot more "errors" made by the skipper and need a lot less attention. The boat can take care of himself (almost) no matter what. With a Cat you have to pay a lot more attention to the wind, to the sail the boat carries, regarding the wind. It is not only the speed that is bigger; everything happens a lot faster in a cat, including capsizing.

Tom, I hope that you don''t think I don''t like cats (I intend to take a test sail in a Dragonfly this spring, and for that I have to travel 6000kms), or even that I dislike cats.

I believe in a fair evaluation of sailboats and I believe that there is not a perfect sailing boat, but a right boat to each sailor, and they can be and are very different boats.

I love diversity.

Paulo
02-23-2005 03:24 PM
dogboater
Cruising Catamarans Offshore

Unlike Bumfuzzle here''s a site done by a couple of sailors on a Seawind 1000:
http://www.instantweb.com/s/siudzinski/

As to how well the Seawind points, I can''t answer that. As a general rule cats with fixed keels like the Seawind don''t sail as high as a boat with dagger or center boards. While cruising I have yet to be passed by a similar sized monohull on any point of sail. Those that have passed me in light air were all motor sailing. I am aware that there are lots of fast 30'' monos out ther that could blow by me, just not those cruising which is what we''re talking about. On the down side (for my boat at least) really beating is not fun. It''ll pound pretty good, slow down and speed up quickly and in general make you pay attention to all the stuff that you normally don''t stow. Since you have to stow everything on a mono no matter what I guess you wouldn''t have stuff flying around.
Paulo, you''ve changed the definition again, now it''s "true ocean monohull" to survive a knock down. I still maintain that there are lots of monos out there that wouldn''t survive or recover from a knockdown. And a fair number that sink very quickly. All it takes is a failed thruhull, stuffing box, hit something and get holed. Thousands of pounds trying to pull the boat under scares me soooo much more than capsizing my boat that I can''t put it in words.
Hope this is''t taken as a rant but jmho on affordable cats doing a little offshore work.
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