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Go Back   SailNet Community > Out There > Cruising & Liveaboard Forum > Production Boats and the Limits
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Thread: Production Boats and the Limits Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
2 Hours Ago 07:39 PM
elgatosunrise
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Well, I know this thread has gone into many directions. I can't comment on much, I only know my experiences. I just returned from doing the Inside Passage - Seattle to Alaska and back. I did this in my 1976 Newport 30, with a tiller and no auto-helm.
I would not trade this adventure for anything.
But, it will be my last major journey with this smaller set-up.
The journey was not open seas at all, but the storms I did endure - almost put breaking waves in the cockpit and - the weather helm on the tiller was exhausting. Anyway, I've got my eye on a full keeled Westsail with a wheel in the cockpit.
4 Hours Ago 05:37 PM
smackdaddy
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
I agree with you K
You could call Boreals,Garcias, Hylas, HRs, Outbounds, Oysters, even gunboats all production boats as they are made in series to the same toolings/design for hulls.
As stated by me and others- there are boats where the target is extended world cruising and boats where that is not the audience. Smack seems to have trouble with the concept - you don't take a chevy Malibu down the baja peninsula . It could be done. In prudent hands perhaps without ruining the machine but -why would you- The Malibu is a great bang for the buck car. New ones are stylish and run well. But they are not tricked out power wagons.
No. I just think you guys have it wrong. BeneJeneHunterBavarLinas are not "Chevy Malibus" - and cruising is not exactly the "Baja Peninsula" - unless you're hitting the high lats. The Class A rated boats from these brands are very nice cruising sailboats you can take virtually anywhere safely and comfortably - and are a very good value. That has been proven over and over and over again.

There's absolutely no reason to put them down. And there's really no reason to spend WAY more for a similar cruising sailboat from a "high-end" brand - unless that kind of "affinity" is important to you.

There's nothing wrong with high-end boats. They just aren't necessary.
4 Hours Ago 05:12 PM
outbound
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

I agree with you K
You could call Boreals,Garcias, Hylas, HRs, Outbounds, Oysters, even gunboats all production boats as they are made in series to the same toolings/design for hulls.
As stated by me and others- there are boats where the target is extended world cruising and boats where that is not the audience. Smack seems to have trouble with the concept - you don't take a chevy Malibu down the baja peninsula . It could be done. In prudent hands perhaps without ruining the machine but -why would you- The Malibu is a great bang for the buck car. New ones are stylish and run well. But they are not tricked out power wagons.
5 Hours Ago 05:07 PM
smackdaddy
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Typically in these discussions, BeneJeneHunterBavarLinas are the "production boats". It's not that hard, really.
6 Hours Ago 03:18 PM
Don0190
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by killarney_sailor View Post
This thread has been a bit of lost cause for the last 139 pages because there was never any agreement about what was meant by 'production' since Amels and Oysters by any sensible discussion are production boats, even if the production numbers do not reach the thousands (or likely the hundreds).

That's not the reason it was a lost cause!
7 Hours Ago 02:50 PM
killarney_sailor
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

This thread has been a bit of lost cause for the last 139 pages because there was never any agreement about what was meant by 'production' since Amels and Oysters by any sensible discussion are production boats, even if the production numbers do not reach the thousands (or likely the hundreds).

I have a solution to the problem. A boat is now anchored behind we that a couple is cruising on. It is close to 60' with the bowsprit and was built in 1904. From the outside it looks to be in great shape with need skylight and deck houses all over. If we use this boat as our comparator, then everything else under about 50' is a johnny-come-lately production boat. And the answer is you will find just about everything in this harbour from about 25 feet to 60' and age from a couple of years to over a hundred. I think you just pick a boat you are comfortable with and go cruising. Either it will be up to it or it won't. You will find out as you go and chances are quite good you will not kill yourself in the process.
1 Day Ago 11:59 PM
smackdaddy
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by ramonred View Post
Hi Everyone,

I'm in the process at looking at an Alberg 30 project boat as a potential offshore candiate - was just curious if anyone here as had any experience with this model. I do understand there is a great amount of info out on the web and have been doing some research there, but I would also be interested in any informed opinions of actual owners or those who have sailed on one.

Thanks
Hey ramo - I don't if anyone answered this. I personally don't have any experience with the A30. However, I raced with a dude who owns one and does very well in his class in various off-shore races. So they can't be all bad.
1 Day Ago 11:38 PM
smackdaddy
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exile1 View Post
It's instead more about a cost vs. benefit/risk vs. reward type of analysis with few absolutes.
Exactly. That's precisely why I started this thread and the other one on CF.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exile1 View Post
You credit yourself with being an independent thinker with a critical mind. That's all well & good when questioning experienced sailors, but it should also be applied to boat mfgs. who often have agendas other than just seaworthiness that they are trying to balance. Perceived comfort, convenience, and looking cool is only part of the equation, but I'm pretty sure you understand that too -- at least when you're away from the internet!
That bold word up there is the crux of the entire debate. I'm saying production boats are seaworthy. Sure, they may not all have the specific features some old, experienced sailor wants, and they may have very different priorities - but that in no way makes them "less seaworthy" in the context of cruising.

If we can agree that THAT is the "cost vs. benefit/risk vs. reward type of analysis" - then I think it's all good.
2 Days Ago 04:25 PM
Exile1
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Actually, I'm all about the "reasonably foreseeable" standard. That's precisely why I'm asking how you - or anyone - would consider the blowing out of that aft side portlight in that Hunter to be a "reasonably foreseeable" issue. And I'm still waiting. Thus far we've got one sunken oil rig which doesn't seem to apply here.

Look, it might seem like "inexperience & bravado" for me to not simply accept an experienced sailor's word for something - no questions asked (and I don't just mean Jon, who I respect a lot, but anyone out there). But what ever that sailor is saying should be "reasonably forseeable". Otherwise, it's just hyperbole, and not helpful at all. And I don't let stuff like that slide just because someone has experience - or even just because I consider them a forum friend (as I do Jon). It has nothing to do with "miles" - it has to do with reason and objectivity.

In other words, you guys can't simply demand "respect" for your "miles" if what you're claiming makes no sense. It just doesn't work that way. You're absolutely welcome to your opinion - but remember it's an opinion. Reid Stow has a hell of a lot of "miles" - but I take almost nothing he says seriously.

That said, if you want to take the underlying opinion of this argument to heart yourself and ensure you're being as "prudent" as you possibly can be, why have opening portlights at all in any boat? It's just increasing risk, no? Look what happened to that oil rig.
It's not so simple Smack, and rarely is it all or nothing as I think you must know by now. It's instead more about a cost vs. benefit/risk vs. reward type of analysis with few absolutes. My steep learning curve on my own boat continues to confirm the mantra I've always heard that there's no substitute for experience. The trouble is that it's hard to understand or maybe accept that fact until you rack up some experience!

I'm not reading Jon's comments that an opening portlight in a hull will absolutely fail and is a deathtrap. What I'm getting from his comments is a heads-up to perhaps lend a critical eye towards a "comfort" item that sells well at a boat show, but could be a potential hazard at sea. Obviously if the thing is left OPEN by a neglectful crew then that's a completely different type of hazard, but also one that isn't all that helpful or relevant to the point being made.

After considering Jon's warning but balancing it against the comfort of having additional ventilation while at anchor or at the dock, you may reasonably decide it's not a big deal. Just don't delude yourself into thinking that it's plastic frame & dogs are built as stout as an escape hatch on the bottom of a multi-hull!

You credit yourself with being an independent thinker with a critical mind. That's all well & good when questioning experienced sailors, but it should also be applied to boat mfgs. who often have agendas other than just seaworthiness that they are trying to balance. Perceived comfort, convenience, and looking cool is only part of the equation, but I'm pretty sure you understand that too -- at least when you're away from the internet!
2 Days Ago 03:43 PM
smackdaddy
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exile1 View Post
I think your "typical cruising conditions" test is rather misguided, Smack, and this goes well beyond this particular example of opening portlights. You've applied it in a myriad number of ways on various threads to try and explain away concerns people have raised about certain features of production boats. Some of your reasoning makes sense, but much of it frankly seems derived from a combo of inexperience & bravado, not really the best duo for undertaking seagoing voyages, no matter how benign you seem to think they may actually be.

I'm not suggesting a "worse-case" test, or that you need an aluminum expedition boat for sailing the Caribbean. But I think more of perhaps a "reasonably forseeable" standard or the "prudent mariner" saying we often hear might serve you better. Just like there are usually some valid reasons why certain boat brands have certain reputations, there are usually good reasons why experienced sailors express opinions. If you haven't put the miles under your keel yourself, then the best way to learn is from guys like Jon who have.
Actually, I'm all about the "reasonably foreseeable" standard. That's precisely why I'm asking how you - or anyone - would consider the blowing out of that aft side portlight in that Hunter to be a "reasonably foreseeable" issue. And I'm still waiting. Thus far we've got one sunken oil rig which doesn't seem to apply here.

Look, it might seem like "inexperience & bravado" for me to not simply accept an experienced sailor's word for something - no questions asked (and I don't just mean Jon, who I respect a lot, but anyone out there). But what ever that sailor is saying should be "reasonably forseeable". Otherwise, it's just hyperbole, and not helpful at all. And I don't let stuff like that slide just because someone has experience - or even just because I consider them a forum friend (as I do Jon). It has nothing to do with "miles" - it has to do with reason and objectivity.

In other words, you guys can't simply demand "respect" for your "miles" if what you're claiming makes no sense. It just doesn't work that way. You're absolutely welcome to your opinion - but remember it's an opinion. Reid Stow has a hell of a lot of "miles" - but I take almost nothing he says seriously.

That said, if you want to take the underlying opinion of this argument to heart yourself and ensure you're being as "prudent" as you possibly can be, why have opening portlights at all in any boat? It's just increasing risk, no? Look what happened to that oil rig.
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