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What makes an "Old Shoe" an Old Shoe?

11K views 55 replies 26 participants last post by  timebandit 
#1 ·
There's been some debate since Giulietta posted this term but no attempt to define what an Old Shoe is or isn't. Take Oh Joy for instance. She was built in 1961 as a wooden yawl, displaces 14,500 # and has a waterline of around 26'. However, I've seen her maintain speeds of 7.5 upwind and as much as 9 downwind before surfing. She's been clocked at 14 surfing in beam seas. So, is an Old Shoe a full keel boat? I don't think so cause Oh Joy has full keel with a cut away forefoot. Is it the performance range in certain wind ranges? Westsail 32's are notoriously slow but can sail comfortably when other boats are getting thrashed.

Let's nail this down...
 
#33 ·
George, expect more next week. Between the weather, having to do stuff around the house and actually look for gainful employment, I couldn't work on her this week.

"Master Mariner" I kinda like that. Considering she sailed around the horn the wrong way some years back, I suppose she qualifies.
 
#35 · (Edited)
That's Bernard Stamm in a Cyclone during a ocean racing event in the Bay of Biscay. I believe it's an Open 60.

I agree about the craftsmanship. Oh Joy was built like a tank so she's solid. Good thing too as she was unloved for a while before I got her.
 
#39 ·
I saw that but chose to leave it be... Far be for me, an owner and sailor of a Venture (Mac) 21, to mention what someone sails...

We all know Alex can be an opinionated a$$ but he more than balances with contributions and real friendship. Ain't nobody perfect....
 
#40 ·
CharlieCobra-

It is easy for people like Timebandit and K1VSK to take potshots at people who actually contribute to this site. They contribute little and need to inflate their little egos by doing so.

Here's a classic example of such a potshot:
WM wrote something EVERY similar and it is available at their stores for free as a handout. They also have documents which discusses a myriad of other topics including ropes, hardware, clothing, anchor choices, head/holding tank treatments, etc., some of which get plagarized here from time to time.
His very lame follow-up is as follows:

 
#42 ·
if they had gotten them based on what other users thought of them, they'd have more green boxes.
 
#43 ·
The old shoe definition has been misunderstood, even by me, perhaps at times, even by Alex.

I'll try to set things straight. I might actually get it right.

the age of the boat has nothing to do with it. New boats can be old shoe, old boats might not be. It's design and usage.

If your boat is so slow you have to start the motor to tack, you have an old shoe.
If you have to motor in less than a 10k breeze, you have an old shoe.
If you are loaded down so much your water line changed 8" you're fast creating an old shoe.
If you load every spare inch of the decks with jerry jugs, BBQ's, kayaks, dingy motors, etc, you're fast creating an old shoe.
If you have too little sail available to get er going, you have an old shoe.

Some boats will partially qualify as old shoe, some are dead on old shoe and some really would take a lot to make into old shoes.

Some old shoes are perfectly suited for their intended use. But some old shoes are rather inapropriate for the actual use. Like seeing a Hummer driven by mom to the suburban grocery store after a stop at starbucks. Nothing wrong with a hummer, used by the military in combat. But really rather ridiculous for grocery shopping. Unless you are grocery shopping in Bagdad (or Detroit).
 
#44 ·
To me having a lot of experience with your boat, knowing it's ins-and-outs, knowing how she handles, what her strengths and weaknesses are, etc, makes her a good team with her captain, a good fit. The more experience you get with your boat, modifications you make, and that kind of thing, the more she will fit you and you her, the better suited you are to one another, and the better the two of you will make your way.

To me "old shoe" is the same thing except maybe the captain and the boat have a little TOO MUCH experience with each other, maybe the captain knows just a little more than he should about her motor, perhaps that rudder has been welded maybe one too many times, her sails patched with loving care just a little too much, etc. No matter how much you adore your boat, at some point ... maybe it is time to consider moving on. :D
 
#50 ·
Whew - thought I was getting old and Alz-y like Sway. Man that dude pushed your buttons! In the midst of your fury, you even harshed BFS! I'm just glad to see rationality win the day and you back to your senses.

BTW - I hope you don't mind, but I used one of your best-ever BFS quotes this weekend. Good stuff. Good times.
 
#52 ·
C'mon dude, you sell yourself short! This was one of the best ever - back in the good old FightClub days. It's the only reason I have any respect for you whatsoever! (heh-heh)

Charlie, ya should have been on L Michigan yesterday. We had steady 20knots from the NE. Went out in building seas. (2-4 foot chop quickly building to 4-6)

The Dog got seasick and the wife got mad that I would not head for cover. She got even madder when the words "Suck it Up" came out of my mouth. Than she got really mad when she took and elbow to the forehead as I was trimming the Genny.

Than she laughed about it when we got back in.
She is a great girl.
 
#53 ·
When you come here as a newbi its NOT like SA but i have seen plenty of things that were HARSH until you took the time to realize the total picture


And if your going to sling crap in good fun you have to be prepared that NOT everybody is going to get IT and may throw some back
 
#54 · (Edited)
Tom - that's the truth. I learned that myself on the pointy end.

However, as you might imagine, I will say that I personally think people get a little too tender around here sometimes - firing back with all cannons when a newb spouts off instead of keeping it fun. I don't want this place to be SA - it's great as it is; a really good mix of smack-talk, humor, and TREMENDOUS sailing info and stories - without the in-your-face profanity, etc. of SA. But I've never agreed that a newb has to reach a certain level of posts, or do a certain amount of research, or like certain people, or boats, or macerators, etc. to come on the site and throw down his/her opinions. I don't even care when they are obviously trying to light it up. But when they do so and begin to endure the beat down that inevitably comes with such comments - I say let 'em fight it out. I think that most of the time the return fire is just as harsh as the newbs attempts. And I think the general "troll trigger" around here is too often pulled.

Sure it can get ugly - but just look at the tremendous asset to this forum that I've become after my auspicious entry into the world of Sailnet! (This is the softball pitch, Dog. Oh yeah, you played chess - nevermind.)

Seriously, my recommendation to all lurkers-cum-newbs that tend to be loudmouthed, smacktalking, muckraking, opinionated, blowhards is to take it to FightClub first. Don't spam the whole board with your rant. Keep it focused - then fight it out and see if you can prove your point without going supernova and getting banned. It's way more fun that way.
 
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