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Production Boats and the Limits

792K views 5K replies 235 participants last post by  Jeff_H 
#1 · (Edited)
We've seen the age-old debate regarding what's REALLY a blue-water boat. And that's cool and everything - but it seems to me that there is a tangible middle ground between coastal cruising and true blue water sailing. Furthermore, in my blissful ignorance, I'd say that quite a few sailors inhabit this aether plain.

Sure you can buy a Hinckley or a Brewer or a Tayana or Cheoy Lee and take them wherever the hell you wanna. But where exactly can you take a Catalina, a Hunter, an Irwin, a Beneteau, a Jenneau, even.....yes....even.....a MacGregor (dum-dum-duuuuum).

Do you make sure you never leave sight of land in these boats? Do you keep land 50 miles away? 100 miles? Do you run from a 40 knot squall? Do you live in morbid fear of encountering a freak 50 knot storm - where you're cool with it in an S&S design from 1927? Can you "outrun" such storms in these "new fangled keel" boats - where in a full-keel Formasa you just heave to and ride it out with a Dark-n-Stormy and a tiparillo in your hand?

Giu had a good write up comparing Beneteaus/Catalinas/Hunters from a "sailability" standpoint. And CD has had some great input regarding the capabilities of various production boats. And we've seen the exhaustive list of blue water boats with great input from Cam and Jeff_H.

Furthermore, Val and others have pointed out the critical elements in any heavy weather situation is actually the skipper and crew. And this makes a heap of sense too.

So, the question I'd like to pose to the sailing world is this: From the standpoint of dealing with the outer limits of "coastal" cruising - what are the best production boats and why?
 
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#90 ·
Okay - so maybe there really isn't a distinct vein here. It appears that, as always, it comes down more to the sailor and his/her seamanship than it does the boat. And - if this is really the case, it would hold that (as said above) virtually any reputable production boat can (with logical care and preparation) indeed be sailed virtually anywhere in the world if one does not feel the need to drive it through repeated Force 9+ storms.

The Bene's still seem to have the best reputations - with Catalinas and newer Hunters right in the mix. And no one has mentioned a specific production boat that DEFINITELY WOULDN'T make the cut to prudent off-shore sailing (Irwin, O'Day, etc.). So maybe we take that angle.

Which boat(s) would you NOT trust - and why?
 
#91 ·
Smack,

Now you are into the what and how you want somethng built. Example, i probably would not take a tartan offshore, altho the older fiberglass ones are held in high regard. One of the things I do not like about them, is the door way into the cabin, goes all the way down to the cockpit floor, vs some designs have the door stopping at the seat top. Yes you have to climb up and over, BUT, if the doors break, you have less water getting into the cabin per wave that poops over you. Now, in a really bad storm, you're probably screwed either way. But with a smaller opening, I have a slightly better chance at stopping the inflow when the time comes. Hense why this is on some folks prefered design want for a blue water boat.

I am not saying a Tartan is a bad boat either, it is a good fast design, just this part of the design does not thrill me if I was going off shore etc.

marty
 
#93 ·
Smack,

Now you are into the what and how you want somethng built. Example, i probably would not take a tartan offshore, altho the older fiberglass ones are held in high regard. One of the things I do not like about them, is the door way into the cabin, goes all the way down to the cockpit floor, vs some designs have the door stopping at the seat top. Yes you have to climb up and over, BUT, if the doors break, you have less water getting into the cabin per wave that poops over you. Now, in a really bad storm, you're probably screwed either way. But with a smaller opening, I have a slightly better chance at stopping the inflow when the time comes. Hense why this is on some folks prefered design want for a blue water boat.

I am not saying a Tartan is a bad boat either, it is a good fast design, just this part of the design does not thrill me if I was going off shore etc.

marty
Now THAT'S a good comparison, Bluto. Makes perfect sense - and gives some perspective on the kind of thing to look for in a BAPB.

PS - Get over to the Sacrilege thread in Racing and let's figure out how to make sailing cool again, dude.
 
#102 ·
I'm so in, getting some today, I hate the plastic as well.
 
#97 ·
Smack,

Thinking about my comparison comments above. I wish I could remember where I saw the plus's/minus comments about the two doorway's. It may have been in the European "Ocean A" ratings, and how and what allows a boat to meet those specs, vs B or C rated boats.

I went to the mahina site, and all I could find there are what boats they recommend etc. Altho I was perusing rather quickly. But I did not see what "I" would call "What to look for in a BW capable boat"

While as mentioned, some cookie cutter production boats will go off shore, some have a better design intent that others. What you and others, myself if I ever figure out how to go offshore, need to look for, are these design features that make better off shore boats.

Like a post in the boat buying the other day, a fellow was worried that a 6'4" draft boat was too deep. Hell, if you ground in the ICW at 6'4", I'd bet he'd ground in the 6' boat too! My thought is, one needs to plus/minus certain issues as to where they are going to go. If you're really going off shore for a 2-3 week passage, you had better have plenty of tankage, or a water maker on boat to suppliment lack of tankage if you will in water. Or have some sort of rain collector. Mean while, someone like myself in puget sound, you in your BIG texas lake, if you go cruising, you're out for a day or to or three, maybe a week. BUT, you have marina's, at least I do every 2-4 hrs max along the way! so while I only have 7 gals, or about 6-8 hrs of fuel at 3/4 throttle, it is not a big deal. Meanwhile, the person that wants to be able to motor for 24-28 hrs, better have a 50'ish gal fuel tank, or some way to store that much, using .75-1 gal per hr usage like my motor does. OR if you do do a 12 hr run like I have a couple of time, one takes a 5 gal container of diesel and a no spill nozzle, and fill while motoring!

I really do not feel there are rights and wrongs to what and how a boat should be built, designed etc. but, there are certainly some design issues that one should make sure that your boat meets what you feel is important to you! Myself, tankage is not a big deal, the door is, even for local cruising. A cockpit mounted main traveller, so I can release it from the helm, jib sheets to steer position, reasonable tankage for ones useage, this may vary.

Enjoy the hunt for your new boat. Meanwhile, If I could afford one, a Jeanneau Sunfast 3200 or equal would be in my slip for my usage. Saw some specs on a Beneteau Figaro a bit ago, be still my beating heart! Looks like as some one said, had not thought about it before, a mini transat about 33' long! hubba hubba!
 
#99 ·
I wish I could remember where I saw the plus's/minus comments about the two doorway's. It may have been in the European "Ocean A" ratings, and how and what allows a boat to meet those specs, vs B or C rated boats.
I know I have mentioned the "doors" issue about my Nauticat before so it's possible that it is back there some where. My Nauticat is only rated "B" because it has the sliding doors on the side as all the NC "Traditional Motorsailer" are. The other Nauticat line "Pilot House" sailboats are rated "A" as they have the traditional sailboat companionway in the cockpit.
The '99 Catalina 320 I traded in for my '99 Nauticat 331 was rated "Ocean A" ......but which one do you think I'd rather be in while experiencing a Perfect Storm in the North Atlantic :rolleyes: While I agree that the sliding side doors are an issue to be remidied I know there are lot more NC 33's out cruising the worlds oceans than C320's ;)
 
#101 ·
Stan,

I'm not positive I read it here, but more than likely elsewhere re the door issue. But I do recall you or someone mentioning the sliders on NC, now that you mention it in relation to the cat B vs A.

All of these things that someone says we need or not, I feel need to be weighed as to what and where we will go. Trying to cross oceans in the non hurricane season you can get away with things vs if you try to sail/cross an ocean during hurricane season or if you go to the roaring 40's/50's either north or south towards the poles. Or extreme cold like the couple with the Oyster 72 article in this months CW that came to my door about a week ago.

Anyway, as long as folks realize, there is good and bad in ALL boats, that is a good thing.

I2f,
I am sure we've all touched, or if we have not, it is when, not if! heck, I've even touched in my canoe and old kayak accidently, and on purpose on a few occasions! what do those draw? 4-6" Hence my comments that these draft needs do not always hold water. Air draft would worry me more in the ICW than staying under 6' as an example! But, I am probably now showing either my ignorance of the area, not having been there, or what really worry's me vs what does not, which I am sure what worry's me, does not make someone else worry!

Marty
 
#103 ·
ICW depth...perhaps others are more qualified to answer whether 6'4" is suitable. I read in the past year, in magazines and newspapers ,that certain parts of the ICW in the Carolinas are shoaling up, and in some spots, finding 5' is difficult...one report had charter fishing boats running miles out of their way to get to the ocean because of shoaling. If you are going to be in NC waters much (outside the ICW), then even 5 ft. draft is going to limit some of your movements...at 4'11", I plowed the marina fairway and creek to get to open water two weeks ago, because a west wind had dropped the normal water level about 1 ft. below normal. (Fortunately the bottom on the creek is soft).

While I agree with Stan regarding preferring the NC331 over a C320 for storms in the north Atlantic (if for no other reason, it'll be warmer and dry with the inside steering station over the C320 open cockpit), the people who determine what makes a Cat A, B, C rating probably have it right. Sliding doors, unless heavily constructed to guard against it, are more likely to get ripped off than smaller hatches with drop boards, and then, no matter how well the boat is built, it is subject to flooding in a storm with breaking waves.
 
#106 ·
Someone drank the French Kool-Aid....
 
#107 ·
So SD,
WHAT IS wrong with a Jeanneau? I know of one locally that spent 2 yrs wondering around the pacific, with a couple and there two daughters. ANother about 2 yrs ago did a non stop circumnavigation! IIRC that one was 20 yrs old or there abouts. The new SF3200 was designed as an ocean going single/double hander, and there were 16 or there about at last years transquandra race. The designer has one for his own. FIRST boat he has designed as a production model that he bought for him self!

They make good boats for there use! On par with ANY of the newer production built boats frankly.
 
#109 ·
I think there are better production boats, like Hallberg Rassy, for a bluewater trip... Better build quality IMHO too.
 
#110 ·
Twice the price ?

aren't Halberg Rassy twice the price ? unfortunately, this is not a issue with me as i'm in lower budget arena, but definitely interesting chat, just in case I get lucky ....lol...
 
#111 ·
Mum,

At least twice the price for an equal sized boat! There is something to be said for the base boats, ie catalina, Beneteau, Jeanneau, Hunter, Bavaria among others, Affordible and they will go offshore. Now they may not like going around the Horn on a bad day, a good day maybe..........But they are well built for what they are!

On the other hand, if HR's are so good, Why is Dog sailing a boat with training hulls? I would bet that boat is not as well built as an HR either? granted it is faster, but still. Probably built on par with Jeanneaus too!
 
#112 ·
If I were going to spend that kind of money on a boat, I'd get a custom Chris White design more likely than not. :)
 
#114 ·
Just about died !

I don't know whether to thank you or curse you, turning me on to Chris White.
I'd love just to see one on the docks and especially under sail.
I never knew about these vessels.
 
#113 ·
Guys, guys...what have we already established? A great sailor can (and has in the past) taken a freakin' raft made out of pop bottles across the Pacific, so it's not so much the boat as the sailor.

I personally will 'fess up that I got a steel cutter for world cruising because I KNOW my level of experience won't support either a well-equipped but "light-ish" production cruiser, and my budget won't support a true performance cruiser of the Swan/Moody/OVNI class.

In other words, I got a tough steel boot to compensate for the fact I haven't done more than 10 years' of sailing.

If I make one bad-incident-free circ, maybe I'd make another in a faster, or even a production boat. Presumably, my level of experience (and not the inherent qualities of the boats involved) would merit a review of the appropriate vessel.

But if I hit the first reef I see off the Marquesas, steel and a big prop will give me a better chance of survival than a plastic boat designed to reel off 240 NM days.

Thank goodness I don't plan on being in a rush.

To sum: an ocean-rated 40-50 footer is going to be less boat in some respects than mine, and more boat in others. My advantages lie primarily in "forgiveness", which is a hint to the whole thread.
 
#116 ·
Who wouldn't like that?

Boat taste is like car taste. Someone told me that the Pontiac marque was being dropped by GM in the latest attempts to bail faster, and my reply was "Good. They aborted the Pontiac Aztek upon the face of the earth, and someone must pay. Let there be a heap of skulls before the Detroit headquarters!"

I have actually seen people in the street spot an Aztek and mutter "what the hell is wrong with that car? Wait, is it a car...why is it yellow...eeeewwww..."

That's the feeling I get from terrible boat design. The tri above is the opposite of that.
 
#117 ·
The Aztek was one of the most hideous production vehicles I've ever seen...
Who wouldn't like that?

Boat taste is like car taste. Someone told me that the Pontiac marque was being dropped by GM in the latest attempts to bail faster, and my reply was "Good. They aborted the Pontiac Aztek upon the face of the earth, and someone must pay. Let there be a heap of skulls before the Detroit headquarters!"

I have actually seen people in the street spot an Aztek and mutter "what the hell is wrong with that car? Wait, is it a car...why is it yellow...eeeewwww..."

That's the feeling I get from terrible boat design. The tri above is the opposite of that.
 
#118 ·
I am a definite newby to this forum and this question is right where my thoughts are right now. We are planning to sail to Australia via the Panama Canal (from the Med). Once we reach the Whitsundays we will be settling down and our boat will then double up as a skippered charter. I have been looking at the Beneteau 50 but am getting lots of mixed messages. I notice that the Beneteau boats have regularly done well on the ARC and when I look at boats for sale in Aus quite a number have been circumnavigated with the boats and owners still in one piece. Yet none of the "production" boats are in this years list of recommended cruisers. Can someone tell me the downsides of this boat? We will be travelling myself, my wife and one child. Thanks for any comments.
 
#120 ·
Umm... A 50' boat might be a bit of a handful for a couple with child...depending on the age of the child and such. When you're cruising as a couple-with or without child-you're generally two people singlehanding the same boat at different times. If the child is older, say 12+ YO, then that changes the equation slightly.

However, I strongly feel that any boat you get has to be capable of being handled singlehandedly by the weakest adult crew member that will normally be aboard her. There will be times, especially if you have a younger child, that the other person will not be available to help do things like reef the sails when it needs to be done.
 
#119 ·
Gooday Graeme,
I am very biased but; have a look at the hull design - bolt on keel, chassis with hull glued on perhaps...Does the rig need regular tightening??

Then look at the hull shape - greater beam aft of the CLR as well as CE behind or about the CLR. Therefore downwind she might wish for her rear to race past her bow.

Then again, there are thousands of these bendy toys around. Cant be all bad. Will be great for the Whitsunday market.
 
#121 ·
SD,
How are you today?
I agree wholeheartedly. Our boy from age about 6 could take a day watch and could transfer pos to chart etc. He could use the radio properly, steer, understand the echo sounder and many other things.

So, I think its all good for Mr G and his gang. A bendytoy most likely will have an in mast furler so to minimise muscle needed. He should know all about it by the time he gets here. I see what you are saying about many people jumping into the Queen Mary size yacht first. Mind you, you havent enough room to swing a cat. ( I know - try harder)
 
#123 ·
I'm good... Boat's in the water... will be going down to the marina tomorrow for a couple of days on the boat to commission her for the season. :)
 
#126 · (Edited)
Okay - so a quick summary of the wildly varying sentiment of the past pages, which is now close to becoming the definitive gospel on BAPDs for all time...

General Rules:
1. "Blue water" and/or "offshore" can be defined for our purposes as a 5 day passage from anchorage to anchorage (due to the modern weather window). It's beyond what most think of as "coastal" cruising, but it's not a pull across the Pacific either. (That said - these boats CAN also do a longer hop without major issues. See Givens below).
2. The unforeseen weather limit we seem to have set is a strong gale/"weak" storm (e.g. Force 9-10). This means that if you were unlucky enough to get caught in one, you'd still feel relatively safe in your production boat with appropriate heavy weather precautions (e.g. - storm sails, drogues, etc.). In other words, it's not going to fall apart around you.

General Givens:
1. It is understood that the vast majority of modern production boats can and have indeed circumnavigated - some with major modifications and strengthening, others without. Virtually any boat can indeed be sailed virtually anywhere in the right conditions. But this particular conversation is centered around the rules above as this is where most sailors will play.
2. It is understood that the boat typically outlasts the sailor's will/ability even in the worst of conditions.
3. It is understood that there are a million variables in all these estimations from tankage, to crew size, to boat size, to gear, etc. But this discussion is a wildly irresponsible rule of thumb exercise - so there you go.
4. When it comes to separating the first and second tiers - it probably comes down more to comfort than toughness. But, few will argue that comfort ain't a good thing in the long run. So there you go.

The True Contenders:
1. Beneteau: seems to get high marks all-round as a boat that is well-built, fast, serviceable, comfortable, and sturdy. All-round winner.
2. Catalina: seems to be the next in line in the above areas - though CD will protest wildly that "Bene's got nothin'. Jeff likes my boat best."
3. Jenneau: Right in the hunt - but arguable as to where it finally falls. Serviceability? Better than newer Hunters?
4. Hunter: seems to still be suffering from "poor design" during previous runs - yet has seemingly improved in the last few years. It seems the jury is still out on this one.

The Second Tier:
1. Tartan: older ones at least (say pre '90?). problems with hatch design, etc. discussed, but still liked.
2. Sabre: tough boats - but some problems listed.
3. Hallberg Rassy: starts to move out of typical "production boat" world and into high-priced "elite" boats (same with OVNI, etc.) that are more "blue" than "production".
4. From here we probably pass into the realm of "lesser" blue water boats. So I'll stop here.

Fugedaboudit?:
1. Irwin: still personally not convinced of that this one fails the test. built lighter and for a lower cost point - but does that completely move it out of the contender category?
2. O'Day: a lot of them around, but no one willing to go to bat for it.
3. McGregor: the big ones rock - but anything less than 45'+ gets a nose thumb and a good heckling.
4. Any multi-hull. Those things are just abominations to sailing. Heh-heh.

What have we left out?
 
#130 ·
Okay - so a quick summary of the wildly varying sentiment of the past pages, which is now close to becoming the definitive gospel on BAPDs for all time...
I think I would call this "a good start", but it neglects major makers like Dufour, Hanse, Farr, Saga and J-Boat, and ignores that Tartan are making boats equal in seaworthiness to Beneteau (some models, anyway), and ignores a huge swath of production boats made in the thousands, but no longer being produced, like the C&C Landfall series, CS 36 and 42, Niagara 35 and 42, the bigger Pearsons, Gulfstar, Southerly, Peterson...yadda yadda.

We haven't even gotten to the "old shoe" class, like Westsail, Bristol, the various Taiwan-built cutters and schooners and clippers. The Island Packets, the Passports, the Shannons. Basically, anything Alex finds amusing. ;)

And then there's the 10,000 steel or ferrocement Roberts designs out there, and the odd fibreglass replica of "Spray" with authentic teak and brass below, some in the cook's peg leg and parts of the parrot.

Ye be only wetting yer buckles, matey. Dive a little deeper 'til there be the devil to pay! Y'arrrrrrrr.....
 
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