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Crimping versus Soldering

117K views 285 replies 73 participants last post by  desert rat 
#1 ·
I am not trying to bring up another very heated argument on this board, but I would like to tell anyone still soldering that almost without exception, EVERY soldered joint on the V-42 we have is corroding and failing. It may have taken close to 20 years to do it, but we did not find these issues on ANY of the crimped joints... NONE.

If that is not a first hand testimonial to crimp over solder, I do not know what is.

- CD
 
#140 ·
Can a professional electrician or electrical worker make a consistently good solder joint? Probably.
Can a professional electrician or electrical worker make a consistently good crimp? Probably.
Can a doctor, lawyer, or whoever owns a boat make a consistently good solder joint? Probably not.
Can a doctor, lawyer, or whoever owns a boat make a consistently good crimp? Probably with the proper tools and connectors and the proper instructions.
The proper crimper is not very expensive nor are the connectors. Adhesive heat shrink must be used afterwards to seal out moisture or connectors with adhesive heatshrink can be used. Tinned marine wire should be used. Even if you are making battery cables the tools are not that expensive when compared to getting the cables professionally done. As to the proper instructions see Mainesail's links below for some of the best information available with an easy to follow pictorial and tool model numbers as well.
All About Marine Wire Termination Photo Gallery by Maine Sailing at pbase.com
Making Your Own Battery Cables Photo Gallery by Maine Sailing at pbase.com
If crimping is standard with the FAA, USAF, and ABYC it should work for you.
Brian
 
#141 ·
Mitiempo—

The FAA, USAF and the ABYC obviously don't know a thing about electrical connections on a moving vessel... ;)
 
#144 ·
Mitiempo-

The FAA, USAF and the ABYC obviously don't know a thing about electrical connections on a moving vessel... ;)
Laf! 5% of the USAF's electronics contain vacuum tubes - and the current regs still specify to lace wire runs with string; they aren't too keen on them newfangled wire ties.

The great thing about the USAF is that nothing stays in service for long, and everything gets inspected and/or replaced every 13 weeks by dozens of trained technicians. On that schedule and MTBF, I guess I would use crimped connectors throughout my boat. Unfortunately, it's just me. So I'll solder and crimp both.

Best Regards,

e

.::.
 
#142 ·
I have an open mind on this subject for the moment, I am too new to boating to have developed a strong opinion one way or the other, I'm still collecting information so this thread is useful to me.

For now the way I do my connections is to strip the end of the wire, slip a bit of heat shrink over the wire and move it far enough down the wire so it doesn't get hot during soldering, then I crimp a connector on the end of the wire, then solder it like I have done for years in electronics. Once that is done and the connection has cooled I move the heat shrink up to the edge of the connector and fire it with a lighter to seal the connection. That works for me and I do not remember ever having a failed connection doing this, but I do not have experience using these connections on a boat. Works great in land vehicles though, so unless there are corrosion issues I would expect it to work on a boat too.
 
#143 ·
Not all solder is the same. You have to use solder that is compatible with the wire you are using. The heat from soldering and the acid can damage wire that is not intended to be soldered. The pros will tell you crimp only and use heat shrink tubing with the hot glue lining (which is not cheap stuff).
 
#145 ·
I've always believed that solder connections provide a better electrcal connection especially for signals. I just made a 5 pin soldered connection for my windex to meter signal at the base of the mast. I used a D9 male female computer connection and sealed it very well. There's no mechanical load on it so barring the wire getting snagged in the heat of battle it should last quite a while.
 
#146 ·
I posted pictures of this somewhere on here and have discussed this before, but here is some first hand knowledge between the two.

When we bought Dad's boat (a Tayana Vancouver 42), we ended up pulling out and replacing a lot of the wiring. None of the wiring was tinned. Everything that was soldered was cracked and corroded. Pretty much everything that was crimped was fine. The exception to the crimping only came on some exterior wiring (nav lights, for instance) though 99% of it was soldered too and a mess.

I will never solder anything on a boat if I can help it. I reccomend to everyone that crimping is the ONLY method to use on a boat. This is a good first hand representation of about 20 years of "comparisson".

- CD
 
#147 ·
By the way, military specs for crimps are:
22 gauge..............15lbs
20 " ..............19lbs
18 " ..............38lbs
16 " ..............50lbs
14 " ..............70lbs
12 " ..............110lbs
10 " ..............150lbs

I wonder how many inexpertly done solder joints will meet these standards.
Brian
 
#148 ·
In my own experience, if a solder joint looks right, it probably is. Experience will teach you what "looks right" means. Crimps give you no such visual clue.
A good technician knows how and when to use either method...each has it's place. A connection that defies soldering can often be crimped satisfactorily...non tinned, oxidized wire comes to mind.
Howard Keiper
Berkeley
 
#149 ·
The issue is that the solder cracks. The cracked solder corrodes. The corrosion causes failure.

It has no place in a boat or I would guess a car or plane either.

Now, what I have witnessed may very well be a weekend warrior electrician with a blow torch and a roll of flux. But my first hand experience after reviewing the joints has been very negative. Given that crimping has shown no such negative effects, and is pretty darned easy to do, I cannot see why anyone would solder on a boat.
 
#152 ·
Maine Sail—

Some people "KNOW" their way is the only correct way, regardless of what the various people in various industries and the science behind the facts actually says.... and nothing you say or do can convince them otherwise.
 
#154 ·
Maine Sail-

Some people "KNOW" their way is the only correct way, regardless of what the various people in various industries and the science behind the facts actually says.... and nothing you say or do can convince them otherwise.
I'm not trying to convince those who would re-use already oxidized wire or those who already know all there is to know. I, as always, get concerned for the newbies to DIY who might take what ever they read at face value like "solder first then crimp" ...

P.S. Here is what a true cold formed crimp looks like INSIDE..

Before cutting it open

Cut Open (solid mass of cold formed copper):

I even polished it for the doubters:

Close up (sorry for the bad pics my flash and tripod are on the boat):


Sorry but there is NO water getting past this even before the adhesive heat shrink goes on....
 
#153 ·
Originally posted by "thekeip"
"...if a solder joint looks right, it probably is...Crimps give you no such visual clue"

I can't see inside either joint, but by cutting open a crimp you can see a solid mass of copper as a result of the cold forming that takes place with a proper crimp. All About Marine Wire Termination Photo Gallery by Maine Sailing at pbase.com
cut open crimps pic at bottom of page.

Originally posted by "thekiep"
"...each has its place. A connection that defies soldering can often be crimped satisfactorily...non tinned, oxidized wire comes to mind."

Why would you wire anything on a boat with non tinned already oxidized wire?
Brian
 
#155 ·
Mitiemp...

Anyone who's soldered "radio connections" of any sort knows what is meant when "it looks right"...bright, shiny, and the solder permeated into the joint. You don't have to cut the joint apart to examine it.
You just can't look at a crimp and know if it's good or not.

I quite often run into conductors that need to be spliced or terminated...older RG-8, old non tinned multidstrand, or many applications where replacing a cable would be impractical, or where the conductor can't be replaced at all
Howard keiper
Berkeley
 
#156 ·
If you're experienced at soldering you can probably tell when the connection is good - but the majority aren't that experienced. With a proper ratcheting crimper and the right connector you get a true cold weld inside as Mainesail's pics above show very well. Even for battery cables if you use the FTZ 94285 crimper you get a true cold weld in the lug. I just finished a set of battery cables in 2/0 and it worked like a charm.

I understand why you'd crimp when the conductor can't be replaced easily but I would crimp and heatshrink 100% of the time.
Brian
 
#157 ·
I understand why you'd crimp when the conductor can't be replaced easily but I would crimp and heatshrink 100% of the time.
Brian
I agree with crimp/heat shrink. Even my non-critical wires, like my ST-60 wind, are done with adhesive lined heat shrink crimp connectors as well as the important stuff like mast light wiring..

The only stuff I solder on board is the center core conductor of my RG-8U to the PL-259 pin. The shield of the RG-8U is crimped then heat shrinked. The internal connection point, shown below, gets wrapped with self sealing tape once connected to the spar antenna wiring..
 
#159 ·
PLease note, that failure was on the part of the eggheads not the technical team that made the spacecraft in question. The spacecraft in question didn't have any electrical failures... and most of the Mars Rover type craft have far exceeded their working lifespans... which is primarily attributable to the techniques used to make them.

"Somebody want to tell NASA they are wrong"

Ha! You mean like when they mixed up meters and feet and flew the mars explorer into the ground? Ok, I will!

Best Regards,

e

.::.
 
#160 ·
Copper is very soft and ductile so cutting through a crimped connection smears the metal and indeed makes it look like a "solid mass" of metal. A proper metallurgical inspection of a crimped connection involves slicing a section of the crimp with a microtome and looking at the surface with SEM. The interstitial spaces are always present, and can be very small, on the order of angstroms, but no amount of force can fuse copper wires into a solid mass. Unless you melt it, which I wouldn't recommend.

Crimping is a great mechanical connection, and a servicable electrical connection. Solder, especially modern, lead-free solders, are also very soft, and better yet, not prone to embrittlement. A proper solder joint fills interstitial spaces, and a proper crimped connector will deform the soldered wire and make an excellent connection.

I sometimes use solder joints and sometimes crimped connectors, and sometimes both.

I am simply putting in my 2cents worth of 30 years of electrical engineering, take it or leave it, as usual.

Oh, and how about the electrical failure that roasted 3 astronauts in the Apollo project?

...just because all the other kids jump off the Empire State Building doesn't mean I'm going to.

Best Regards,


e

.::.
 
#162 · (Edited)
Copper is very soft and ductile so cutting through a crimped connection smears the metal and indeed makes it look like a "solid mass" of metal. A proper metallurgical inspection of a crimped connection involves slicing a section of the crimp with a microtome and looking at the surface with SEM. The interstitial spaces are always present, and can be very small, on the order of angstroms, but no amount of force can fuse copper wires into a solid mass. Unless you melt it, which I wouldn't recommend.
This is why I polished it to remove any smear. If there were enough room for water to get in you would see black dots from the very soft tripoli polising rouge stuck to the surface. Lets not forget that your spar is held up by a similar concept called swaging where the metal is compressed into a near solid mass. Perhaps we should all weld/solder our swages??;)

Also what is the size of a molecule of silver as in silver solder? Is it smaller or bigger than an angstrom? Considering that every reference I have seen states that crimps must be applied BEFORE solder how is it that the solder can penetrate an angstrom??
  • One angstrom unit (A.O. or Å)= 0.1 nanometers, or one ten-thousandth of a micron (10-4 microns), or one hundred-millionth of a centimeter (1 x 10-8 cm.) One angstrom is the diameter of a hydrogen atom -- the smallest element.
If hydrogen is the smallest element how large is silver? Would it do any good to add solder to a properly crimped battery lug if it can't penetrate?

Apparently you missed the part about the NASA requirement that the crimping of pre tinned wire is BANNED. Mil Spec also states teh same. As usual the 30 year veteran electrical engineer knows more than anyone else or the collective wisdome of the entire aerospace industry or the ABYC which is made up of people/voting members, in the industry, including electricians who work on boats every single day.

I also thought that a water molecule was nearly three times the size of an angstrom making it physically impossible for water to penetrate through a proper crimp.

This is a poor crimp made with a cheap tool & cut open with the same tool. You can see wires because this is a crappy connection. Like with soldering the right tool and the right method MUST be used only it is MUCH easier for a novice DIY to make a good connection with the proper crimping tools than it is for them to do the asme with solder, hence the current ABYC standards..


Crimping is a great mechanical connection, and a servicable electrical connection.
Yep and plenty servicible for NASA, the aerospace industry, US Army, Marines, Air Force & USCG, Ford, Honda, Toyota, GE and thousands of other companies who rely on billions of crimps world wide every day..

Solder, especially modern, lead-free solders, are also very soft, and better yet, not prone to embrittlement.
Really so how many 30 degree bend cycles will a tinned section of 14 ga marine wire handle with and without solder? I know the answer becuase I have tested and done it before. The non tinned wire will handle considerably more than 1000% more 30 degree bend cycles than the same wire tinned..

A proper solder joint fills interstitial spaces, and a proper crimped connector will deform the soldered wire and make an excellent connection.
Keep telling your self that crimping after tinning is a good idea and soon enough you might even believe yourself..

I sometimes use solder joints and sometimes crimped connectors, and sometimes both.

I am simply putting in my 2cents worth of 30 years of electrical engineering, take it or leave it, as usual.
Everyone can do as they wish on their own boat as you do. Is your 30 years of EE in the marine industry?? Sometimes applying theories learned in one industry does not always pan out in another.

Take for example the many mechanical and aeronautical engineers who have been proven wrong about propeller drag. For yeas they would pontificate on helicopter blade analogies and and use "lift" arguments and in geneneral be adamant that a locked prop caused more drag. It apparently does on a helicopter but does not not when dragged through the water at 4-6 knots attached to a boat...

Oh, and how about the electrical failure that roasted 3 astronauts in the Apollo project?
How bout it? It was not caused by a solder vs. crimp situation and as suggested by the NASA investigation could have been caused by perforated teflon wire insulation. This is why you need to support wires and have proper strain relief. This was more likley chafe than a connection issue unless of course you are trying to re-write NASA investigation history..

NASA said:
4. CAUSE OF THE APOLLO 204 FIRE

The fire in Apollo 204 was most probably brought about by some minor malfunction or failure of equipment or wire insulation. This failure, which most likely will never be positively identified, initiated a sequence of events that culminated in the conflagration.
...just because all the other kids jump off the Empire State Building doesn't mean I'm going to.

Best Regards,

e

.::.
By all means it's your boat and you should do as you wish.

You need to understand that some of us have actually worked in the industry and have seen lots of solder failures, incorrectly or correctly done, it does not matter because we know the vast majority of boater CAN NOT do it correctly. No one is disputing that solder makes an excellent electrical connection, it does, but the application is the tough part.

The many, many, many voting members, of ABYC, of which one is a friend, have also seen these solder failures. There is a reason the industry suggests crimping over soldering. Just yesterday I asked the electrician at the boat yard what are his two most common electrical failures. Answer #1: Corrosion & Answer #2: Soldered joints. I also asked about crimps and he said occasionally he will see a bad one but that it was poorly done to begin with. I also aksed if he has ever seen a failure of a heat shrink crimp connection and he said yes. He then went on to describe this failure as one that a boat owner decided to hang a winch handle from in a lazarette and the ring part of the terminal broke from the swinging handle after two seasons of this. He then laughed and said .... "A real failure? No.".....

You need to know that when you make blanket statements that you will be debated so that those reading this forum can make their own educated decisions. Just because you have 30 years experience as an EE does not mean you are always right and there are many other variables that one can and should consider.
 
#161 ·
The fact that you've had to go back to the Apollo missions says much about NASA and the reliability of crimping electrical connections. :) I'd tend to think that equipment and technology have improved a bit since the Apollo missions...
 
#163 ·
Maine sail, that was all very interesting, I learned a lot by reading it. You even answered the question I had in mind when you showed what the badly crimped connection looked like when you cut it open - thank you for going the extra mile, it was like watching myth busters. :D

Question - Did you say above whether it was a good idea to solder after you made a good crimp or to leave the good crimp alone ? I have been doing crimps and then soldering, what is your opinion on that ?

One odd thing you showed me was that the bad crimp wasn't as bad as I thought it would be inside, I actually imagined worse.
 
#164 ·
Question - Did you say above whether it was a good idea to solder after you made a good crimp or to leave the good crimp alone ? I have been doing crimps and then soldering, what is your opinion on that ?

One odd thing you showed me was that the bad crimp wasn't as bad as I thought it would be inside, I actually imagined worse.
Soldering after a crimp has been made is fine provided you:

A) Know what you are doing (most don't).
B) Use a heat sink to prevent solder creep up the wire
C) Use the correct solder.
D) Use proper strain relief/adhesive lined heat shrink.
E) Use the proper crimp terminals for soldering which are different and non-insulated and rarely as robustly built as the insulated ones or heat shrink ones.
F) Use the proper crimp tool for the solder/crimp terminals which most don't own or have if they have been using a crimper designed for insulated crimps.

In short doing crimp then solder requires different tools, proper training and more labor and will not really yield any better end result.

The bottom line is that there are billions of crimps in use world wide maybe even trillions. Yes solder makes a great electrical connection but is very tough to do correctly, is brittle at the solder wire junction and if resistance becomes an issue it can melt leaving a dangerous hot wire dangling. This is why ABYC recommends a mechanical connection first then solder if you feel the need.

IMHO the best bet is to buy adhesive lined heat shrink crimp terminals and the proper single crimp ratchet tool.

Sailors Solutions sells the heat shrink crimps and the crimp tool. I don't see any need to crimp then solder when using proper connectors w/adhesive heat shrink and the proper crimp tool.
 
#166 ·
Wow, hot topic. Tragically, I have a job so I can't endlessly post superfluous minutia, maybe when I retire =)

Soldering = the Devil, yeah, we get it.

Of course, that doesn't exactly jive with solder traces on PC boards, does it? That solder runs just about everything in your life, from your computer, to your car, to your doorbell.

Anyhow, I'm sure you're right, I just thought you might be interested in an alternate opinion. Guess not.

Best Regards,


e

.::.
 
#167 ·
Wow, hot topic. Tragically, I have a job so I can't endlessly post superfluous minutia, maybe when I retire =)

Soldering = the Devil, yeah, we get it.

Of course, that doesn't exactly jive with solder traces on PC boards, does it? That solder runs just about everything in your life, from your computer, to your car, to your doorbell.

Anyhow, I'm sure you're right, I just thought you might be interested in an alternate opinion. Guess not.

Best Regards,

.::.
Its pretty MUCH the entire Marine Industry and the Coast Guard who has final say over most things on boats ;) who want things crimped
 
#169 ·
Most of the crimps in a computer or electronic device are to hold heavy components on to the device where solder might not have enough mechanical holding power. Things like plugs that come out through the case that the user interacts with directly are often crimped on to the board so that they won't break free when the user does what users do. Electrical connections are still solder, they are just crimped too to help hold them to the boards.
 
#170 ·
Come on, sd, you and I both know that the meters-and-feet "mixup" was totally bogus. A very clever cover story that NASA put out trying to explain why 2/3 of the 53(?) Mars landers/missions have "failed" to date.

If the public ever was told the real truth--that the Martians have shot down 2/3 of the UFOs that have reached Mars from Earth--there could be chaos in the streets. Better to take one for the team, and come up with a really really clever "Doh!" excuse instead.

(WEG)
 
#176 ·
jarcher
While the adhesive lined heat shrink would protect the connection from moisture, the connection is nowhere near as good. A proper marine crimp connector is made of tinned solid copper while the lower quality are usually aluminum. See Mainesail's site below for examples of the quality differences.
All About Marine Wire Termination Photo Gallery by Maine Sailing at pbase.com
Brian
 
#180 ·
Blade Connectors?

ABYC frowns on the use of friction connectors (aka blade and bullet connectors). Essentially Friction connectors (the blade and bullet variety) are allowed, provided they resist a 6-pound pull.

Many engine sensors use blade connectors. Since the engine a pretty good source of vibration, is there a good method to prevent these blade connectors from loosening over time?

I've seen instances where wires are soldered to the directly to the blades - such as speaker connections.

Are connections like these preferable if there are soldered to the spade connections?
 
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