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  Topic Review (Newest First)
1 Hour Ago 08:32 PM
Bleemus
Big Freakin' Sails

I only saw the video of the guy reaching with jib only. Making Vmg in 50 knots with storm jib and triple reef might be one or two knots on a 40 footer with good sailors and good helmsman. An inexperienced cruising couple would be going backwards for sure. With only a jib it would be a negative number no matter who is sailing. Boat totally unbalanced and making lots of leeway.


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2 Hours Ago 07:35 PM
Shockwave Bleems, you think it's actually making any upwind VMG in 50 knots with that sail plan?
2 Hours Ago 07:30 PM
Bleemus
Re: Big Freakin' Sails

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottUK View Post
It would appear to me also that the sailors in the first video did go out to test themselves. From the footage it appears they might have gotten in the heavier seas for a wee while before going to a more sheltered area where most of the video was shot.



When beating into those types of conditions and beating I think having the main out can be good so the boat can be driven up. Hard to do with just the headsail. I think it can be dangerous to have the main up when running but my previous discussion was concerning sailing to windward.



The video just posted is more like the sea state I remember being in when sailing in 50+ kts. As I said I have beaten into it but typically we usually run off if we can. Another one of the times beating into those conditions for 6 hours before turning and running my fingers and toes were tingling for 3 months after the race. It was about 3 degrees out on the water so it was a typical Scottish summer day.

You won't make any appreciable progress beating upwind under jib alone.


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3 Hours Ago 06:52 PM
smackdaddy
Re: Big Freakin' Sails

Beating into a "Scottish summer day" for 6 hours - you definitely have my respect Scott! That sounds brutal!

As you say, I'd much rather run.
5 Hours Ago 03:59 PM
ScottUK
Re: Big Freakin' Sails

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Yeah - "knockdown" is definitely an overstatement. At about 2:48 he gets hit by a good gust that lays him over pretty good and puts the rail in the water. He turns the camera to himself to show his reaction. It was another reason I think he just has too much sail out for the conditions (if you're just sailing, not racing) - and is on a harsh point of sail (not running off).

Of course, it looks to me like he intentionally went out in the stink to do some "practicing". And he seemed to do pretty well. So I've got to give him some cred. Few people are willing to do that. It's funny, but from the cockpit shots the headsail looks to have a much better shape than in the top-down shots.

But to your question about the main, judging by the boat's reaction to that big gust, if you added even a triple-reefed main to that headsail on that point of sail, you'd be way over-canvassed I think. I sailed in 40-45 with just a reefed main on my Catalina 27 (no headsail). We were on a beam reach and it was a little scary. Lots of shuddering with the rig.

Here is the other video I was talking about. This guy is in much rougher conditions with the same general sail configuration, but is much more comfortable and the boat far less stressed. The conditions are touching F11:

http://youtu.be/lYSdOfcPiFE
It would appear to me also that the sailors in the first video did go out to test themselves. From the footage it appears they might have gotten in the heavier seas for a wee while before going to a more sheltered area where most of the video was shot.

When beating into those types of conditions and beating I think having the main out can be good so the boat can be driven up. Hard to do with just the headsail. I think it can be dangerous to have the main up when running but my previous discussion was concerning sailing to windward.

The video just posted is more like the sea state I remember being in when sailing in 50+ kts. As I said I have beaten into it but typically we usually run off if we can. Another one of the times beating into those conditions for 6 hours before turning and running my fingers and toes were tingling for 3 months after the race. It was about 3 degrees out on the water so it was a typical Scottish summer day.
7 Hours Ago 02:15 PM
smackdaddy
Re: Big Freakin' Sails

Yeah - "knockdown" is definitely an overstatement. At about 2:48 he gets hit by a good gust that lays him over pretty good and puts the rail in the water. He turns the camera to himself to show his reaction. It was another reason I think he just has too much sail out for the conditions (if you're just sailing, not racing) - and is on a harsh point of sail (not running off).

Of course, it looks to me like he intentionally went out in the stink to do some "practicing". And he seemed to do pretty well. So I've got to give him some cred. Few people are willing to do that. It's funny, but from the cockpit shots the headsail looks to have a much better shape than in the top-down shots.

But to your question about the main, judging by the boat's reaction to that big gust, if you added even a triple-reefed main to that headsail on that point of sail, you'd be way over-canvassed I think. I sailed in 40-45 with just a reefed main on my Catalina 27 (no headsail). We were on a beam reach and it was a little scary. Lots of shuddering with the rig.

Here is the other video I was talking about. This guy is in much rougher conditions with the same general sail configuration, but is much more comfortable and the boat far less stressed. The conditions are touching F11:

16 Hours Ago 05:50 AM
ScottUK
Re: Big Freakin' Sails

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
I agree. But at 50+ knots, I don't think it's really about sail shape anymore - per se. It's more just about stability and directional assistance - and the amount of sail. Sure, ideally you want to blade ANY sail out as much as you can in those conditions (and the one in the video has way too much belly in my opinion - and you can see the results in the one knockdown) - but are you really wanting to shape a foil in wind like that?

To me the video shows that it would be much better if he had a bit less sail out and was heading downwind (like in the other video I posted of the sloop in the F10/11 conditions that was doing much better than this boat). He's definitely pushing the boat in this vid. Even so, it's doing pretty well.
I agree it is more about stability and and directional control and I think a better sail configuration would be greatly improve that. I have beat into similar conditions a few times (with non-furling headsails) with a smaller headsail and reefed main with no issues of stability and directional control and I would think a more balanced helm they likely would have had. Makes me wonder why they did not raise the mainsail and how it would have impacted the interrelationship with the furled headsail and on helm control.

An interesting aside, during one of those times of similar conditions we were doing an offshore race shorthanded (to get to a start point and to meet the rest of our crew for another offshore race) and were in last place. We had another boat in front of us within our sights, We were losing ground on them and I started to pinch a bit. Though the boat dropped in speed 1-1.5Kts we were able to point higher and sail flatter and passed them. When our watch was over the other watch sailed for speed and was overtaken by the boat we had passed. When we got back on I steered as I did previously and we passed them again and eventually beat them over the line. Second to last but at least we beat one boat. I think it shows how a boat that is even somewhat overpowered can really effect VMG. I think this could be applicable to a poorly shaped furling headsail with a tendency to be overpowered at times.

Having viewed the video 3 times I have not seen the knockdown you had mentioned.
21 Hours Ago 12:36 AM
smackdaddy
Re: Big Freakin' Sails

I understand that Med. And that's what I said - that you want blade, not belly in high-wind conditions. But again, we're talking 50+ knots (F10/11) - at least we were in another related thread (the production boat praise thread). In that case, reducing sail (not just blading it) is a very, very good option....as is running off...and towing a drogue. Read Bob's recent post from the Jefe. All sail comes down in an F10/11 blow and he's running bare poles - at 9-14 knots. The problem is, he's on the foredeck in the Southern Ocean pulling down that staysail in 60+ knots with towering green water coming over the decks. Not a place I would want to be.

So, we're talking this fine line between sailing in heavy winds, and handling a storm. The window of optimizing sail shape with a storm staysail in big wind is pretty small in my book (and that of Hal Roth). It's certainly not enough to warrant turning a sloop into a cutter as was being advised in the other thread. Just my opinion.
1 Day Ago 06:42 PM
MedSailor
Re: Big Freakin' Sails

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
I agree. But at 50+ knots, I don't think it's really about sail shape anymore - per se. It's more just about stability and directional assistance - and the amount of sail...
Ummm... No. Shape counts exponentially more at high winds. Increased draft and camber increase drag and power which causes you to heel more.

You want a flat blade that develops lift and forward motion in gusts not just drah and power which will knock you down.

With poor shape you'll have to reduce sail because of heel and you'll be under driven and more at risk of knockdown.

BTDT with the partially rolled furler in a blow. Slow going with lots of heel means you're in it longer and its less comfortable.

Medsailor


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1 Day Ago 03:14 PM
smackdaddy
Re: Big Freakin' Sails

Quote:
Originally Posted by Windkiller View Post
Anyway , i generally try to trust my own instincts and listen to advice if it seems sensible. I like a good adventurous sail, seeing the boat I'm in rushing through the elements, Exciting stuff. But I'm not the type to jump out of perfectly good airplanes or knowingly seek perilous situations. Things can go awfully wrong, awfully quickly
Bingo. The key is to deal with the crap that you find yourself in - for whatever reason - and get home safely. That's BFS in my book.
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