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Tell EPA to Wait on Ethanol Increase

4K views 35 replies 14 participants last post by  dacap06 
#1 ·
Tell EPA to Wait on Ethanol Increase (from BoatUS Magazine)

The ethanol industry is asking the Environmental Protection Agency to increase ethanol in gasoline to 15% (E15), without conducting research on what this will do to your boat. It's well established that the current 10% Ethanol level (E10) causes big problems for some marine engines and fuel systems, and rushing E15 fuel to market, without research, could be a disaster.

But 54 ethanol producers can't wait. They've asked EPA to allow E15 fuel and you have until July 20 to tell the agency, No, at least not with out testing because today's boats are not designed or warranteed for fuel above E10.

Send your comments directly to the EPA at NMMA - Government Center But please act today. July 20 is the deadline.
 
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#10 ·
I suggest you consider the storage stability issues of bio-diesel - it's coming



Though biodiesel is OK in cars, it has been a failure in stand-by applications, and boats are like that.
 
#2 ·
Ethanol is such a bad idea, and everyone knows it. Of course, the ethanol producers want it to be government mandated! Wouldn't you like to have the market cornered on a product that is suddenly required by law?
 
#3 ·
I do nto personally like E10, one of my trucks gets 10MPG with straight gas, 8 with E10, so for every 100 miles I drive, I use 10 Gals of straight gas, and with E10, just under 11 gals of straight gas and 1.5 gals of ethanol! Makes sense does it not?!?!? NOT! This is supposed to remove our dependence on foreign oil?


oops. sorry about the political rant!

Marty
 
#5 ·
The reason you get lower fuel efficiency with E10 than with the older MTBE-formulated gasoline is simple... Ethanol is an fuel oxygenator, since all alcohols have an OOH group on one end. This means that the fuel will burn slightly cleaner... but it will also reduce fuel efficiency, since you're now paying for oxygen in your fuel. Any space taken up by oxygen in the fuel is going to reduce the energy content of the fuel since, previously, the oxygen was all free... it came from the air the engine aspirated. :)

I do nto personally like E10, one of my trucks gets 10MPG with straight gas, 8 with E10, so for every 100 miles I drive, I use 10 Gals of straight gas, and with E10, just under 11 gals of straight gas and 1.5 gals of ethanol! Makes sense does it not?!?!? NOT! This is supposed to remove our dependence on foreign oil?

oops. sorry about the political rant!

Marty
 
#6 ·
also the fact that alky has 20 % less btu's than gas does not help either. my big question is how long will the catalytic converters last with less heat keeping them clean.

my big compliant with alky fuel is, its not green, it takes way more energy to make it. not that i am a greeny and far from it, but we have to pay for the energy that goes in to making too, and right now the .gov subsidizes it to keep it cheap
 
#7 ·
Recognizing that the boating community represents a tiny fraction of the carbon emission problem from gasoline combustion, it seems doubtful there would be any impact if EVERYONE wrote comments against the E increase. The reality is that we are not representative of the larger issue.

If it makes that much difference to you, why not just use E-free fuel in your engines? It is widely available.
 
#11 ·
E-10 is MANDATED in most major cities, it is not something the customers asked for.



And I would bet that is where the serious gallons go.
 
#12 ·
I'd point out that K1vsk has never let facts get in the way of what he posts.
 
#13 ·
The real tradgety is financial - it is EVERYONES problem

In 2008 the Highway trust fund required an $8 billion bailout, in part becuase ethanol does not pay road tax.

Much of the "stimulus" money is going to go to fill the new hole in the trust fund that has formed since the 2008 bailout. The fund is almost empty again.

Ethanol is subsidized at about $0.50 per gallon.

MPG is effected, as explained.

Any improvment for the environment or global warming has been dismissed. Too many trees cut to plant corn.

Corn prices, and thus all groceries, are forced up. The impact on relations to other contries are effected, and there is no doubt amoung rational people that thousands have died of starvation as the result of higher food prices. No welfare in the 3rd world.

We are just a bunch of stupid, ugly Americans. Just stupid public policy disguised behind the new global warming religion.
 
#14 ·
Saying that ethanol can hurt your tanks or engine is just rubbish. If they can stand up to gasoline, which can remove paint and dissolve rubber, it can take ethanol, which is so mild you can use it to clean sensitive electronics. There is so much misinformation when it comes to the new ‘green’ fuels it’s astonishing. I run my car on 100% ethanol and I couldn’t be happier. It’s less than half the price at the pump, burns so clean you can put your nose to the tailpipe and it just has a faint alcohol smell and it is “good” for the environment (carbon neutral). It’s also a renewable resource, employs a great deal of people and, although imperfect, is a step toward the inevitable weaning off oil. What’s the big deal with 10% or 15% ethanol content in your gas? You wouldn’t know it was there unless someone told you it was. Furthermore, I really don’t believe people are cutting down forest in the US to plant corn to make ethanol. Where did you get this information from?
 
#15 ·
Obviously, you're not letting facts get in the way of your post. It has been proven that the E10 gasoline was attacking older fiberglass gasoline tanks. Alcohol can damage things that gasoline doesn't touch because it is both polar on one end and non-polar on the other... It can also act to emulsify water and gasoline.

Ethanol is not carbon neutral. Given that most of the ethanol in this country is made from corn and that petroleum derived fertilizers and petroleum fueled equipment is used to plant, grow, harvest and process the corn and turn it into ethanol, it is not as green or sustainable a fuel as the propagandists would like you to believe.

It also doesn't burn so clean that the exhaust is safe to breathe... go ahead, and do that for a while and see if the carbon monoxide doesn't kill you... it will...

While they're not cutting down forest in the USA, they are cutting down valuable rainforest in South America to make more room for ethanol-production corn stocks.

Saying that ethanol can hurt your tanks or engine is just rubbish. If they can stand up to gasoline, which can remove paint and dissolve rubber, it can take ethanol, which is so mild you can use it to clean sensitive electronics. There is so much misinformation when it comes to the new 'green' fuels it's astonishing. I run my car on 100% ethanol and I couldn't be happier. It's less than half the price at the pump, burns so clean you can put your nose to the tailpipe and it just has a faint alcohol smell and it is "good" for the environment (carbon neutral). It's also a renewable resource, employs a great deal of people and, although imperfect, is a step toward the inevitable weaning off oil. What's the big deal with 10% or 15% ethanol content in your gas? You wouldn't know it was there unless someone told you it was. Furthermore, I really don't believe people are cutting down forest in the US to plant corn to make ethanol. Where did you get this information from?
 
#17 ·
California refused e-10 as long as they could... yes, California.

Why? Because it makes VOC emissions worse. Every locality where e-10 is used has to file for a summer vapor pressure exemption because it has ~ 15% more volatile material. No, it is NOT the alcohol that is volatile - it is less volatile than gas; it MAKES the gasoline more volatile.

Yes, these are also facts that can be verified on the net or in the lab.

Yes, alcohol can make a fine fuel, if everything is engineered for it. What rubs me is the exemptions and subsidies. Either they can make it stand on its own feet or they cannot, and they cannot. They can't use environmental regulation - where statutory authority exists - because they CAN'T MAKE A SCIENTIFIC CASE THAT IT IS BETTER. They can make the case in the pres, but not with facts, where it counts.

Remove ALL of the subsidies and let ethanol stand on its own. That is all I ask.
 
#18 ·
Sailingdog, I think perhaps you should get your facts straight. Please tell me where in South America they are cutting forest to plant corn? Also, they don’t use corn to make ethanol in South America, they use sugarcane, which is much more efficient. Corn is used in the US and is not as efficient, which is why the US subsidizes ethanol. And obviously I’m not suggesting that one can breath the gases from a tailpipe burning ethanol so don’t put silly words in my mouth. My point was that it burns so clean that it gives off no odour. Have you ever seen smoke from an alcohol fire? What is the residue after alcohol evaporates? Furthermore, while it’s not perfect, it is a step toward freedom from oil. It’s not for every country, but it really works for Brazil. Every country will have to find its own solution for its energy needs as we wean ourselves off oil. Finally, I said it was carbon neutral. By this I mean that the carbon given off when alcohol is burned is ‘neutralized’ by the carbon that the sugarcane removes from the air. You’re not adding more carbon the atmosphere like you are when you burn oil. Whether this carbon has an effect on global warming is another issue altogether :)
I still can’t believe that alcohol is harsher than gasoline for a fiberglass tank. I’m not an expert, but I’d have to see PROOF to believe that alcohol can harm fiberglass. Gasoline can strip paint and dissolve other petroleum products (which resin is as well, by the way). Anyhow, it’s not my area of expertise so I’m open to contrary views, backed up with facts.
 
#19 ·
Just a few thoughts...

Sailingdog, I think perhaps you should get your facts straight. Please tell me where in South America they are cutting forest to plant corn? Also, they don't use corn to make ethanol in South America, they use sugarcane, which is much more efficient. Corn is used in the US and is not as efficient, which is why the US subsidizes ethanol. And obviously I'm not suggesting that one can breath the gases from a tailpipe burning ethanol so don't put silly words in my mouth. My point was that it burns so clean that it gives off no odour. Have you ever seen smoke from an alcohol fire? What is the residue after alcohol evaporates? Furthermore, while it's not perfect, it is a step toward freedom from oil. It's not for every country, but it really works for Brazil. Every country will have to find its own solution for its energy needs as we wean ourselves off oil. Finally, I said it was carbon neutral. By this I mean that the carbon given off when alcohol is burned is 'neutralized' by the carbon that the sugarcane removes from the air. You're not adding more carbon the atmosphere like you are when you burn oil. Whether this carbon has an effect on global warming is another issue altogether :)
I still can't believe that alcohol is harsher than gasoline for a fiberglass tank. I'm not an expert, but I'd have to see PROOF to believe that alcohol can harm fiberglass. Gasoline can strip paint and dissolve other petroleum products (which resin is as well, by the way). Anyhow, it's not my area of expertise so I'm open to contrary views, backed up with facts.
Which is the stronger solvent, water or gasoline? Ask a block of salt or a solid iron bar. So, comparisons of the sort you make are silly at best. They are off the point.

Try growing sugar cane in the US and let us know how it goes. Our farmers are smart - corn gives the best cellulose yield per acre.

How are the rain forests holding up? I think they are fading far more quickly than our forests, which is what we hope to avoid. We have made that mistake before, cutting much of the wood in the US. I hope you can realize that risk before you, as a country, make the same terrible mistake we did. Learn from our errors. Learn from the errors of Haiti.

There is a saying in the US: "different horses for different courses." The correct solution in Brazil is not always correct elsewhere. I am sure that US solutions in Brazil would be a poor fit too. I don't mean to imply that using ethanol in Brazil is wrong. I suspect it is the right answer for you, at this time. But that may change too. I don't know. Keep you eyes open.
 
#20 ·
As I said, I'm not an expert on sovents, but we're talking about fiberglass, not salt. I'll wager a lump of fiberglass in a bottle of alcohol holds up pretty well, but what do I know? :)

I know that sugarcane doesn't grow in the US (except southern Florida) and that corn is your best alternative. My point is that corn doesn't make cheap or viable alcohol. Alcohol in Brazil is viable because of the abundance of arable land, climate, regular rainfall and fertile soil. Before you go off spouting about the rainforests, you should know that sugarcane is grown, primarily, in the southeast of Brazil (mainly the state of São Paulo) and on land that has been used for agriculture for a LONG time. No one is cutting forest to plant sugarcane. And yes, it is a question of different horses for different courses. Every country has to look at the most viable options for producing energy. Maybe it's thermal power on volcanic vents in Iceland or biodiesel in Canada. Brazil is self-sufficient in energy partially due to the alcohol program it has. And by the way, it's not subsidized and still costs half the price of gas at the pump. I am fully in agreement that the US ethanol content is political and a waste of taxpayers' money. You'll have to find your own solution. I only made my original post to say that one shouldn't worry about 10 or 15% ethnanl in gas. It makes no real difference to your car. For decades it has been added to gas in Brazil, even before flex engines, with no consequences.

How did this suddenly get so political anyway? :)
 
#22 ·
Because if it didn't go political it would have to go religious:)

As I said, I'm not an expert on sovents, but we're talking about fiberglass, not salt. I'll wager a lump of fiberglass in a bottle of alcohol holds up pretty well, but what do I know? :)

I know that sugarcane doesn't grow in the US (except southern Florida) and that corn is your best alternative. My point is that corn doesn't make cheap or viable alcohol. Alcohol in Brazil is viable because of the abundance of arable land, climate, regular rainfall and fertile soil. Before you go off spouting about the rainforests, you should know that sugarcane is grown, primarily, in the southeast of Brazil (mainly the state of São Paulo) and on land that has been used for agriculture for a LONG time. No one is cutting forest to plant sugarcane. And yes, it is a question of different horses for different courses. Every country has to look at the most viable options for producing energy. Maybe it's thermal power on volcanic vents in Iceland or biodiesel in Canada. Brazil is self-sufficient in energy partially due to the alcohol program it has. And by the way, it's not subsidized and still costs half the price of gas at the pump. I am fully in agreement that the US ethanol content is political and a waste of taxpayers' money. You'll have to find your own solution. I only made my original post to say that one shouldn't worry about 10 or 15% ethnanl in gas. It makes no real difference to your car. For decades it has been added to gas in Brazil, even before flex engines, with no consequences.

How did this suddenly get so political anyway? :)
And because we are all paying for it. That makes us angry.

By the way, many types of fiberglass do not do well with alcohol, not at all. Not instant failures, but serious problems after a year. Newer tank resins are OK, but pre-1990 FRP tanks generally are not.
 
#23 ·
OK, I meant to say starch. One chemical bond twisted, but a big difference



Alcohol is not exactly made from sugar in the US. A corn mash is cooked, where malt (germinating wheat or corn) converts starch into sugar, which the yeast then make into ethanol. Same with beer, wiskey, gin, and many other starch-based drinks. Rum, of course, is from cane and does not require this step.

Cellulose is for paper. Cellulistic ethanol is the holy grail in the US, but is not commercially practical at this time. However, some alcohol is made that way.
 
#24 ·
Brazil is energy independent not because of ethanol but because her territorial waters contain the largest oil deposits discovered in the last fifty years.

Using food stocks such as cane sugar or corn to make fuel is foolish at best. One could ask the residents of the African continent who now compete for basic raw food materials with the bio-refining industries.

Burn Ethanol and Starve an African. catchy, no?

Science magazine on the matter. Science/AAAS | Science Magazine: Sign In

I'm sure copa meant to inform us that they were clearing land near Sao Paolo for increased sugar cane production, while they were clearing the Amazon lands for soybean production, to make biodiesel. It's all in the details.
 
#25 ·
I think we're going to have to move this over to the 'off topic' forum! :)
Sailaway, I'll well aware of Brazil's oil reserves and it's bright future supplying oil to your country:). If you read what I wrote you'll see that I said "Brazil is self-sufficient in energy partially due to the alcohol program it has." It's something you can't appreciate until you come here and see for yourself. Every car made in Brazil today (and for more than a decade) has a "flex" engine that burns alcohol or gas. Alcohol is the fuel of choice. It's much cheaper. Alcohol is at every pump. It has helped Brazil to acheive its self-sufficiency in energy. Again, no forest is being cut down in the southeast of Brazil to plant sugarcane. It was all cut down generations ago for coffee, oranges and other crops. There is a lot of arable land in Brazil.
A final point. Bio fuels don't have a lick of consequence on commodity prices. Both corn and sugar prices are low right now and it's not because there is less being used for bio fuels. Commodity prices have been subject to a lot of speculation in the markets. It's poppycock that making alcohol in Brazil takes food off people's plates in Africa. I'm sorry, but you must look deeper into this to understand what's happening. Brazil isn't growing sugarcane at the expense of food, although this might be the case elsewhere. The grain market, like other markets, is heavily manipulated by 'investors' and it is perhaps one of the least regulated of them all. Anyhow, I didn't want to get into a political debate, all I wanted to say was DON'T WORRY ABOUT 10 or 15% ALCOHOL IN YOUR TANK- IT WON"T HURT YOUR CAR! Sheesh! ... :)
 
#29 ·
Copa...here's the documentation you asked for. Now shut the hell up about how it isn't bad for boaters.

BoatUS.com - Seaworthy Magazine

An excerpt:
"
The reports are all remarkably similar-a black sludge coats intake manifolds and builds up on intake valves, which soon destroys the engine. Most of the reports still involve fiberglass tanks made before the mid-80's by notable manufacturers such as Hatteras, Bertram, and Chris Craft. We've even received reports from owners of small outboard powered boats that had been using portable fiberglass tanks.
Fiberglass/Ethanol Test Results
BoatU.S. sponsored lab test on two badly deteriorated fiberglass tanks to help confirm that the problems were indeed being caused by ethanol. The results, as expected, were not encouraging; though the report is full of hard to pronounce chemical names and expensive sounding equipment, the bottom line is that the tests indicate that two fuel tanks have undergone aggressive degradation-losing up to 40% of their strength. The report goes on to say that there is "resin softening and loss of adhesion between fiber and resin, evidenced by a moderate loss in both strength and stiffness."

An independent test done by New Hampshire Materials Laboratory seems to indicate that ethanol reacts with chemicals in the resins and causes a reaction much like osmotic blistering, only at a much faster rate. The report says that ethanol dissolves uncured phthalates in the fiberglass (the same chemical that can cause osmotic blistering of a boat's hull), which then pass through the engine's filters and get deposited on the intake components.
Finally, chemical resistance data from a leading epoxy supplier showed that even epoxy can be attacked by ethanol. The test was made using the company's most resistant epoxy and exposing fiberglass lab samples to 10% ethanol gas and regular unleaded gas as well as diesel and aviation gas. The results for the ethanol gas showed a 10% loss in hardness and a 10-15% loss of compressive strength over a 16-week period and it's likely that the loss of hardness and strength would continue to fall at a similar rate. The unleaded gas, diesel, and aviation gasoline tests, none of which contained ethanol, showed virtually no loss of strength.
 
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