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Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest > General Discussion (sailing related) > Best Hull type?
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Topic Review (Newest First)
10-21-2006 01:14 AM
pacifichigh
Columbia for offshore

has anyone taken a columbia 28 offshore cruising or coastal cruising,or know antone who has?
07-12-2005 07:48 PM
JeffC_
Best Hull type?

''navigator, although I can see it''s too late: the right place for your handbills is the <font color="green">Crew Wanted</font color> forum on this site.
07-12-2005 02:31 PM
circumnavigation2005
Best Hull type?

ANYONE INTERESTED IN A VERY SLOW CIRCUMNAVIGATION?
I would love to find someone with whom to share the renewal of this dream of yesteryear. I can easily pay my half, am an excellent cook, speak Spanish and French and my passion is travel.
06-29-2005 11:17 AM
Vastbinder
Best Hull type?

The cape cod catboat looks like a very possible contender as a practical design for what I want.

I like the raisable centerboard design making it possible to sail into shallower waters.

Thanks for the suggestion. I''m going to have to research that one some more. ;-)
06-28-2005 08:46 AM
Jeff_H
Best Hull type?

Having had an evening to think about this, and having seen and been reminded of your earlier discussion about using plywood construction, I had a couple of additional thoughts to throw out here. From your description, I would suggest that there might be a few designs that you might want to investigate. The first would be the Cape Cod Cats. Cape Cod cats were designed for use in the frequently choppy waters around the Cape. They were meant to be be capable of withstanding a wide range of conditions. Most had a small cabin and large open cockpits which would be well suited to your goals but they were generally considered good boats. They sailed well in moderate winds and seas. While they are often cited as easy boats to sail, they could be a real handful in a stiff breeze. Like most beamy boats they did tend to build up enormous weather helm when heeled. They were centerboard boats and so you could play with the centerboard to ease weather helm a little, albeit at the price of greater leeway. While the Cape Cod cats had a comparatively comfortable motion for a boat that was that beamy, they still had a pretty quick and pretty rolly motion. Catboats have enormous sail areas and so their sails tend to be expensive and require a fair amount of effort to trim properly. Traditional Cape Cod cats were gaff rigs with an enormous single mainsail that extended well past the transom. As external ballast was added to Catboats, they began to use marconi rigs.

When I worked for yacht designer Charlie Wittholz in the early 1980''s, I got to work on some of his plywood catboat designs. I found that catboats were extremely hard to design well. If you study the lines of a tradtional Cape Cod cat they are surprisingly finely modeled in the water. Good plywood catboats are even harder to design well. Charlie was probably the best designer of plywood catboats. I would suggest that you take a look at his Madam Tirza design which is available from WoodenBoat Magazine pretty inexpensively.
http://www.woodenboatstore.com/prodinfo.asp?number=400-072

These are comparatively easy boats to build. They are quite robust. The outboard rudder is reliable, as well as, cheap and easy to fabricate.

One thing about catboats (or any boat that beamy) is that they can be capsized and they do not come up once overturned. The rule of thumb in sailing a beamy boat in heavy air is ''never cleat the mainsheet. In other words Catboats are not idiot proof designs, but no wide beam, heavy boat is.

Another boat that you might look at were the Ellis designed Nonsuches. These were a rethinking of the Cape Cod catboat idea. Ellis did a brilliant job of mitigating many of the problems inherent in Cape Cod cats. The Nonsuch took the basic catboat hull form and narrowed it a little, raised the topsides, added a marconi mainsail on a freestanding spar, a fin keel and a counterbalanced rudder. This improved helm balance and windward performance, as well as, the ease of handling and increased the angle of positive stability quite a bit.

These were very nice boats all around. I suggest that you look at the Nonsuch 26. http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/pl_boat_detail.jsp?currency=USD&units=Feet&checked _boats=1300584&checked_boats=1355377&checked_boats =1289047&checked_boats=1303927&checked_boats=13927 01&checked_boats=1344118&checked_boats=1297454&che cked_boats=1266324&slim=quick&

The only problem that I have with Catboats for your intended purpose, even ones that are as well thought out as the Nonsuch 26''s, is that as catboats, they cannot be hove to and you lack a jib to use for balance in a breeze.

I do want to clarify that I am not literally suggesting that you build a Cape Cod Catboat, but I am suggesting that you look at the hullforms, especially the hard chined versions designed by Charlie Wittholz. I would suggest that you consider narrowing the beam slightly, adding a fully ballasted keel (I still suggest a long, moderately deep, fin keel for ease of handling in heavy air purposes.) I would suggest going to a fractional sloop rig with a large-ish mainsail. Lastly, for the purpose of keeping the hull weight low, (in order to improve motion comfort, carrying capacity, and seaworthiness) that you plank the topsides in rigid foam, and then cover that with a full depth epoxy/fiberglass laminate on the exterior (with a minimum of non-directional material to improve puncture resistance). If you used a deep section foam (perhaps 1 1/2" you would go a very long way towards achieving full floation. Coupling that with a series of watertight compartments you should be able to achieve full floatation.

I still think that wide beam-heavy boats tend to require more of a "highly energentic, consumate sailor", and in other words, tend to be pretty UN-forgiving as compared to more moderate designs which tend to be able to take care of themselves.

I need to finish lunch and get back to work, I hope that this is helpful.

Jeff
06-28-2005 07:36 AM
Vastbinder
Best Hull type?

That''s why its good that I have a number of months to consider the problem.

I want something I can sail without being a "highly energentic, consumate sailor", in other words, something pretty forgiving.

I would love for there to be a little room to move around above deck and for basic amenities below deck.

and, while I could easily do steel construction, I want to go with dynel/resin over wood as I much prefer wood''s heat transfer characteristic over metal''s

I''ll spend some time designing this one... I''m sure it''ll be a) weird, and b) fun!
06-27-2005 01:38 PM
Jeff_H
Best Hull type?

Maybe this is just me, but I see a major contradiction between saying that you want a boat that is:
"A) stable and forgiving
B) easy to sail single-handed
C) and has a comfy ride."

with saying that you want a boat that is
"broad-beamed,
full-keeled,
double hulled,
somewhat heavy hulled"

These are two boats at the opposite end of the spectrum. Forget about sailing performance, my point is that beamy, heavy boats with much of their weight in their hulls do not have a comfortable motion, nor are they easy to handle, nor do they offer a lot of ultimate stability.

Regards,
Jeff
06-27-2005 01:19 PM
Vastbinder
Best Hull type?

Well, my uninformed (but gradually improving) ideas on this have me using dynel and resin over wood.

The interior space between the inner and outer hulls is to be filled with foam of some sort. I''m painfully aware of the potential problems with sealed space and moisture retention. I intend to take some time considering this problem. Perhaps removable access panels? I dunno...

As to lack of concern for the boats sailing characteristics... it isn''t so much a lack of concern as:
a) don''t care a whole lot how fast it goes
b) want it to be stable and forgiving
c) want it to be easy to sail single-handed
d) want it to be a comfy ride.

I want to sight see... not race. For me, I see it as more of a water-born RV.
06-27-2005 12:57 PM
Jeff_H
Best Hull type?

Just out of curiosity, what material are you considering for your double hulls? As I began to think about how a double hulled boat of that size might be constructed I realized that with most materials you are describing a next to impossible task to actually produce an water tight inner liner that would not result in all kinds of long term maintenance problems or which would not be too heavy for a boat of this size.

As I began to think about how I would go about designing a boat of this size and type, my first thought was that the cheapest, quickest, easiest way to produce the strongest hull for its weight for a one off boat would be a glass over wood boat. But as I began to think about how to create a watertight inner skin, I could not figure out how you would reliably create individual watertight compartments between the skins. I also became concerned about the affects of tarpping the inevitable moisture between two hulls and became concerned about the durability of this.

Steel would be way too heavy for a boat of this size and adding a second skin would only make the problem worse. Of course you also need to be able to get to the interior surfaces of a steel boat for maintenance reasons and sealed interior skin would prevent that.

Fiberglass might work but there are issues there as well. Obviously it would be a little more labor intensive than building a wooden or steel hulled boat from scratch. I suppose that you could build a glass boat with a very thick core (perhaps 1 1/2" or 2") and a full thickness exterior skin. The core would help absorb any shocks and prevent the inner skin from being breeched. If properly bonded the core would limit the flooded are to the damaged area of the core only.

If I had the goal of creating an "unsinkable boat" of that size I think that I would stick with a single hull but try to construct a series of water tight compartments within the layout of the boat.

Given your lack of concern for the sailing ability of the vessel you are contemplating, it probably does make sense that your primary focus is on what happens when you run aground or hit something ;^).

Anyway, good luck,
Jeff

06-27-2005 12:07 PM
Vastbinder
Best Hull type?

No Worries... I appreciate the advice.

I have the better part of a year (or as long as I feel like taking) to consider the problem. But, I have no intention of beginning the project prior to next spring.

Yes, by double-hulled, I mean a single hull with inner and outer layers, with the space between the 2 hulls divided up into water-tight compartments. The inner hull would not be as heavy as the outer... more of an "emergency back-up"

I know that the fins are the current norm... but, for some reason, I see myself sailing in too shallow and breaking the damn fin. I guess that might be one of the main appeals to me for the full-keel. Also, the full-keel seems to present a tougher, more damage-resistant lower surface.

I can understand the physics which make a fin with ballast/bulb attached better in many ways... perhaps, given time, I''ll get over my irrational notions about sailboat design. ;-)
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