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Go Back   SailNet Community > Skills and Seamanship > Seamanship & Navigation > Rules Brainteaser
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Topic Review (Newest First)
08-24-2009 08:49 AM
Diva27
Quote:
Originally Posted by KurtV View Post
This kind of situation is often referred to as "special circumstances". The term comes from Rule 2 and is generally taken to mean that when more than two vessels are approaching each other so as to involve risk of collision ALL of them are required to keep out of the way of the others.

If you get caught in one of these situtions you should act early and act in a way that's readily apparent to the other vessels.
You've hit the nail on the head. Be alert, act early, don't get to the point where three people on three boats who don't know each other (and aren't talking) suddenly have to make simultaneous perfect responses. I'm sure I'm not unique, but I boat in an area where the first four miles away from dock is a mess of upbound and downbound traffic and channels crossing. We call the main crossing point "the washing machine" because of all the cross-chop wake. Tour boats, freighters, every imaginable size of powerboat and jet-ski, sailboats large and small, under sail and under power (and some you're not sure which). Anticipate, anticipate, anticipate.
08-23-2009 08:21 PM
KurtV This kind of situation is often referred to as "special circumstances". The term comes from Rule 2 and is generally taken to mean that when more than two vessels are approaching each other so as to involve risk of collision ALL of them are required to keep out of the way of the others.

If you get caught in one of these situtions you should act early and act in a way that's readily apparent to the other vessels.
08-23-2009 05:12 PM
philsboat When I'm out pleasure sailing I go out of my way to prevent any kind of situation like that from getting to the point where I have to make that decision.A tack or a course change are much easier on the nerves and makes for friendlier day on the water.But.....when it comes to racing I want my rights if it helps my race!

Phil
08-23-2009 04:34 PM
tap
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diva27 View Post
(a) When two sailing vessels are approaching one another
Perhaps most relevant to the original question, these rules are for two vessels, not three. With three vessels it's possible for each vessel to be both give-way and stand-on. How can you both hold your course and make a significant change in course?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diva27
With sailboats, the concept of overtaking keeping clear applies to boats on the same tack, not opposite tacks.
Depends on the rules, this is where the colregs and the racing rules of sailing differ. In the colregs, overtaking trumps port-starboard. In the RRS, rule 12 (overtaking) only applies to boats on the same tack, and so rule 10 (port-starboard) has higher priority.
08-23-2009 08:51 AM
Diva27 I just did what I should have a while ago, and consulted the USCG nav rules. Here are the pertinent regs with respect to sailing craft. I'm right in general about port-starboard and windward-leeward, but others are right about "overtaking keeping clear" when any vessel is astern of another, even if one is power and the overtaking one is sail. A sailboat approaching a powerboat or another sailboat from anything more than 22.5 degrees aft of the beam has to keep clear. Overtaking rules trumps.

Rule 11

Rules in this section apply to vessels in sight of one another.

Rule 12

(a) When two sailing vessels are approaching one another, so as to involve risk of collision, one of them shall keep out of the way of the other as follows:

1. when each has the wind on a different side, the vessel which has the wind on the port side shall keep out of the way of the other;
2. when both have the wind on the same side, the vessel which is to windward shall keep out of the way of the vessel which is to leeward;
3. if a vessel with the wind on the port side sees a vessel to windward and cannot determine with certainty whether the other vessel has the wind on the port or on the starboard side, she shall keep out of the way of the other.

(b) For the purposes of this Rule the windward side shall be deemed to be the side opposite that on which the mainsail is carried or, in the case of a square-rigged vessel, the side opposite to that on which the largest fore-and-aft sail is carried.

RULE 13
OVERTAKING

(a) Notwithstanding anything contained in the Rules [of Part B, Sections I and II / 4 through 18], any vessel overtaking any other shall keep out of the way of the vessel being overtaken.

(b) A vessel shall be deemed to be overtaking when coming up with a another vessel from a direction more than 22.5 degrees abaft her beam, that is, in such a position with reference to the vessel she is overtaking, that at night she would be able to see only the sternlight of that vessel but neither of her sidelights.

(c) When a vessel is in any doubt as to whether she is overtaking another, she shall assume that this is the case and act accordingly.

(d) Any subsequent alteration of the bearing between the two vessels shall not make the overtaking vessel a crossing vessel within the meaning of these Rules or relieve her of the duty of keeping clear of the overtaken vessel until she is finally past and clear.
08-22-2009 08:28 AM
Diva27 I agree that whatever keeps boats from running into each other is the best system. But I should have been clearer in the rules stuff. The basics of "when boats meet" (port-starboard, especially) in the rules have derived naturally from historic colregs, and should not contradict basic behaviour for sailboats whether a race is happening or not. I expect sailors to understand port-starboard and obey it, and not supplant it with some interpretation of their own of who is overtaking who. Courtesy and collision avoidance should ultimately prevail. And I still feel the powerboat as give-way boat should anticipate the situation and stay clear of both sailboats. It simplifies a tricky convergence.
good chat
08-21-2009 11:59 PM
Delirious
Quote:
Originally Posted by fud View Post
Hi Diva27,

I have to confess that I know zero about ISAF racing rules . . .
Nor do I. Nor would the powerboat captain involved. Nor most likely would either sailboat captain. That's why they would have zero bearing, except by coincedence, in a meeting situation as originally described unless it was during a race in which all parties had been informed that those rules would apply.

In U.S. waters I'd say the Rules of the Road as published by the U.S. Coast Guard would be the prime authority - in which case all vessels are obligated to avoid a collision, right or not, so I'd go with fud's earlier response.

http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/navrules/rotr_online.htm
08-21-2009 02:08 PM
Diva27 One more comment (I'm breaking in a Dell mini 10 right now , so bear with my verbosity). I cruise in a C&C 27 but I also have many years' experience cruising Georgian Bay in powerboats, the last being a Fairline 29, and I'm sympathetic to the plight of powerboaters where sailboats and colregs are concerned. As sailors, you can't count on powerboater to understand that your course is restricted when sailing hard on the wind, or that in light shifty winds you might have to change course 20-30 degrees all of a sudden not to go into irons. When I'm sailing I eyeball powerboats from a long way away and try to do as little as possible that will confuse them as the gap between us closes.
Having said that, some of the worst boaters I've seen for right-of-way infractions are sailors under power. Some people seem to have punched waypoints into a gps and refuse to alter course nomatter what. As a sailor, there's little that's more annoying than having to tack out of the way of a sailboat with the main up doing six knots under auxiliary.
08-21-2009 01:13 PM
Diva27
Quote:
Originally Posted by fud View Post
Hi Diva27,

I have to confess that I know zero about ISAF racing rules, but I do want to comment on one thing you mentioned.

That is not correct. When a sailboat is over taking a powerboat (even though this may not happen all that often) the power boat is the stand-on vessel and the sailboat is the give-way. I'm being picky, but also if the sailboat has the engine on (or perhaps in gear?) even if his sails are up (motor sailing) the sailboat is considered a powerboat and must follow those rules. Hope you don't mind my critique. The more I post here I'm sure you will get an opportunity to return the favor. :-)
I agree that if the sailboat is overtaking from astern, it should try to keep clear. But this is a little complicated. If you're in a powerboat and a sailboat under sail is holding a steady course and you choose to steer right in front of it, you're not giving way to the burdened vessel. In many situations like this, it's not a case of the sailboat is moving faster and following the powerboat dead astern, in which case the sailboat should go around the powerboat. Many times the two boats are converging, and it's up to the powerboat to recognize that convergence as the gap between them closes.
Your complication of the sailboat under power is right in that the sailboat at that point is no longer a sailboat (even if one or more sails are up). If you start turning on your motor while under sail, you're just another powerboat, which includes the fact that being on starboard is meaningless where other sailboats are concerned.
Good to chat about this.
08-21-2009 12:58 PM
fud Hi Diva27,

I have to confess that I know zero about ISAF racing rules, but I do want to comment on one thing you mentioned.
Quote:
In the situation you describe, power gives way to sail, period. So the powerboat must avoid both, and we can take it out of the equation.
That is not correct. When a sailboat is over taking a powerboat (even though this may not happen all that often) the power boat is the stand-on vessel and the sailboat is the give-way. I'm being picky, but also if the sailboat has the engine on (or perhaps in gear?) even if his sails are up (motor sailing) the sailboat is considered a powerboat and must follow those rules. Hope you don't mind my critique. The more I post here I'm sure you will get an opportunity to return the favor. :-)
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