|Topic Review (Newest First)|
|12-09-2009 12:55 AM|
|labatt||Unfortunately, NADA, as mentioned, is based on sale prices of vessels. Last year, there were a few Passport 40's sold, and a couple of them needed major work so they sold for low prices. NADA reports that my Passport 40 has a HIGH retail of $91,400. I've received several offers of over $140k for her, so something is different somewhere...|
|12-08-2009 10:48 PM|
Can't post a link cause' my site's commercial but here is an article I posted on it last week (prices are in Canadian dollars)........
BOAT VALUES, A crap shoot.
The toughest part of my job and the one that causes me more problems than anything else is putting a value on a boat.
Rub a dub dub Three Men in a Tub.
The broker, the buyer, the seller went to sea in a leaky tub.... the surveyor was left on shore arguing with the insurance adjuster cause he was the only one stoopid enough to put his valuation in writing.
If you call any car dealer in the country and ask " How much for a 1994 Chevy ?". They will come back with a price within a few dollars of each other. The dealers rely on the huge wholesale auction system which very effectively controls used car prices. Its worth what its worth ! The vast majority of car models sell thousands of units per year so comparative pricing is easy. But how do you compare prices on a Tanzer 29 when only two have been sold in the last three years and there was a 50% spread between those two.
I recently surveyed a Tanzer 29 and another Toronto broker had a pretty nice one listed at $24,900.00, soldboats.com showed only one sale in the last three years at $13,094.00 (pretty low). I valued this pretty good boat at $28,000.00 and got the broker ticked off because his client needed it valued at 33k (2k below its listing price) to get financing ....... the deal fell through. If I had upped the value and something happened to the boat, the insurance company would want to know why I over valued it. The last thing I need is a fight with an insurance company whose legal counsel has 200 names on the letterhead. Now the kind of dollars we are talking about in this instance are not likely to end up in court but you get the point.
Unfortunately there is no huge wholesale auction system to control boat prices and boats cannot be as easily shipped all around the country the way cars are so local markets can be very different. Some boat models are very desirable in the Trent but less so in Lake Erie. Lake Simcoe is a haven for wooden motor yachts with all their covered slips but you can't give them away on Lake Ontario.
The auto market has the "blue book" and the "black book" which give wholesale and retail prices for cars. This information is derived from that huge auction market we already talked about and its pretty accurate. We have similar guides in the boat business.
Each of the titles below is a link to that site.
BUC Value Guide You can purchase this guide or get limited access to information for free on line. This is all US information and I have found the values to be generally quite a bit lower than most of the boats in the Canadian market. Carefully read the criteria for valuations and the exceptions that can make a big difference.
Appraisal Guide You can get a lot of access to values on this site or purchase a more detailed guide but again it is US information and I find the prices on power boats to be very low and only recently have I found most sailboat values not too far off the mark in our market. Carefully read the criteria for valuations and the exceptions that can make a big difference.
Computer Boat Values You can buy this, the only Canadian guide I know of and quite a few of the banks and insurance brokers use it although I have found it to be somewhat erratic in its valuations. Carefully read the criteria for valuations and the exceptions that can make a big difference.
www.soldboats.com No link on this one because I couldn't figure out how to link it without showing my username. This one is on line and quite expensive but I think it's the most accurate way to go. Yachworld.com (The international MLS of boats) requires all the brokers to submit actual sales info when a boat is sold including location, asking price, actual selling price, how long it was listed for and you can even access the original Yachtworld sales page.They then re-sell this info on soldboats.com. Some people think the brokers inflate the selling prices and I'm sure that does happen occasionally but Soldboats says they have penalties if they are caught. I think they are pretty much on the mark.
Power Boat Guide
(Brokers Edition) This guide has layout diagrams, a descriptive blurb and some basics specs but their valuations are right out to lunch.
And some other pricing sources……
Boat for Sale Magazine This magazine has an on line "Value Guide" showing low, average and high prices for the Canadian (mostly Ontario) market. These values are asking prices not actual sale prices. These are simple averages of the prices of boats advertised in their magazine and bear little relationship to what boats actually sold for.
sailquest.com This site has a lot of good info along with a value guide for sailboats only. I have no idea how they come up with their values. They used to be pretty good but they have not kept up with the changing economy and their values seem very fat.
Brokers and sellers have very obvious agendas, they want the highest price they can possibly get and thats an honourable goal in a capitalist culture. The buyer wants the opposite and somewhere in the middle they generally meet up.
Surveyed .... Jeaneau 27. These boats were selling for about 17k at the time. The one I surveyed for insurance purposes was exceptional and I valued it at 21k. The owner had a fit. He had just spent 25k on racing sails ( I know, I know, its beyond me too) and wanted me to add 25k to his boat value. After being harrassed for more than a week I finally said " Lets go to your sailmaker together and ask him what these sails are worth today. Whatever he says they're worth I'll add to my valuation". Off we went and asked the sailmaker. His response .... " If you bring me a case of beer, I'll take them off your hands".
The broker knows that if he prices the boat too high there will be no shoppers and he often has to contend with a seller with unrealistic expectations. there are two sides to this coin .... What if the broker needs money that month and he needs to unload a couple of boats as quickly as possible to make the mortage payment. Canadian sellers have been slow to realize that boat values have crashed as the US economy has flooded the market with desperate sellers. The seller (as have we all) has often spent an ungodly amount of money on his boat and thinks he has increased its value. If a house seller spends 40k on a new roof do you think his house is worth 40k more than others on the street... Not a chance, its supposed to have a roof. If you spend 20k on a 1994 Chevy Impala, what do you have .... a really nice 1994 Chevy Impala.
A while back I surveyed a Bayfield 32'. They were selling for about 60k at the time. This one however was unique. In its 13 year life, the engine had never been commisioned, the sails had never been raised, the original wrapping was still on the head and stove. The couple had it shipped to their marina and came down every Sunday to sit in the cockpit with a glass of wine. This was a 13yr. old brand new boat ! I pulled a number out of the air and valued it at 74k. This was the first time I had ticked off the seller, the buyer and the broker at the same time. It had been sold for $94,000.00.
Occasionally, like the previously mentioned Tanzer a broker sells to a less than expert buyer for above market average. I can't fault him for doing the best for his client but the surveyor is the only one who has to put a value in writing and the only one thats going to end up in court if things go sour on an insurance claim.
I surveyed a Trojan Tri-Cabin that was sold for 38k. It was a dangerous piece of junk that I valued at 18k …….. the deal still went through. At the same time I knew of another Tri-cabin listed for 28k and in exceptional condition. It would have been a serious conflict of interest to inform my client that " Hey there is a much better boat 1 mile from here for 10k less". I had to bite my tongue all the way through that deal. I felt really bad about that one but getting into that kind of conflict could cost me my SAMS ® Accreditation.
Surveyors are supposed to appraise at "Market Value" what does this mean ? it could be reasoned that the boat is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it and that is close to the definition of "Market Value" So if a buyer is willing to pay 40% over the average does that mean I'm going to value the boat at that ? Not a chance. This is where surveyors and brokers come into conflict.
The statement below is the definition and explanation I use in my survey reports
.................................... "Current fair market value" is the price, in terms of currency or its equivalent that a willing seller will accept for property from a willing buyer, neither part being under undue pressure to act in the matter.
This valuation opinion is intended for insurance and financing purposes only and is not intended to influence the purchase or non-purchase of the subject vessel at any value. The surveyor has no interest in the vessel financial or otherwise.
Valuation is primarily determined through www.soldboats.com but may also be derived from consultation with knowledgeable boat brokers, personal experience, current listings and available pricing sources such as Boat For Sale Value Guide, Computer Boat Values guide, N.A.D.A. Marine Appraisal Guide and /or BUC Value Guide. Boat values vary considerably due to local market demands and significant premiums may be paid for fresh water vessels in exceptional condition. Currency conversion is done on date of survey using XE - The World's Favorite Currency and Foreign Exchange Site
This week I surveyed a Hunter 30. There were 11 of these listed on soldboats.com with a low selling price of $12,000.00 and a high of $40,000.00. The owner of the one I surveyed was asking $43,000.00 and bragged that he had just spent 28k on it. This boat might have been worth 40k if he had spent another 50k on it.There were a number of serious issues covered up with bondo and new alwgrip. I valued it at 28k cause' I was feeling generous.
The broker, the buyer and the seller all have vested interests in the valuation but the surveyor is the only one going up on the stand to justify the value.
So what have you learned from my little rant ? Not much. I was just letting off steam after two arguments this week over valuations.
|12-08-2009 09:59 PM|
Originally Posted by Jasper Windvane View Post
I don't deny that inflated reporting may occur in some cases, but I do not buy into the argument that brokers benefit from artificially high prices. Brokers make money from 1) happy repeat customers (both buyers and sellers) and 2) high turnover. Over-priced boats do not sell, and the brokers therefore do not get paid. To the extent that fairly priced boats lead to higher sales volume, the brokers actually benefit from lower prices - which is why they sometimes sell the boats for less than they are willing to admit on soldboats.com.
|12-07-2009 07:14 PM|
I did some more research .. what I found: the NADA value of a sailboat can be up or down about 10%. The sales figure reported by brokers is unreliable, because it is in the broker's interest to inflate the prices. I did the google thing, and this is from a couple of places. Not very scientific. Just what I found on google. If the up 10% is correct; a $15000 boat "could" be worth
$16,500.. or $13,500 .. Sounds about right. The owners/sellers don't like to hear this though. Being a boat seller is like getting stabbed with forks. If the boat goes for NADA plus 10% and the broker takes 10%, .. the broker is taking 10% of the higher amount. Of course, NADA value is based on original equipment. I suppose if a boat buyer gets a boat with a brand new engine, sails, rigging, self tailing winches, an inflatable, ..
|12-07-2009 05:21 PM|
To begin with, NADA values represent an average of the prices reported by brokers for a particular model. The price typically includes sales tax. commissions and any other items that was sold through the brokerage yard. The number is based on sails prices for the year before publication so in changeable times tends to be pretty inaccurate and tend to be totally useless for private deals. It is also not very accurate for boats which have sold in limited numbers.
By the same token, Soldboats has similar problems, in terms of limited value for boats sold in small numbers or older boats where equipment and condition can vary very widely and of course includes a variety of factors such as whether taxes, survey and fees are included as well.
|12-07-2009 05:09 PM|
Originally Posted by night0wl View Post
Some of the entries are accurate as I spoke to other owners/brokers during our search about prior sales. I'd like to think we ended up getting a decent deal on our boat which may have effected the Brokers decision on what to post the sold price at. In the end, those entries are based on the honor system and Brokers obviously want to keep the market elevated.
|12-07-2009 11:18 AM|
|night0wl||NADA really doesn't help much. The best thing to do is find a willing broker who will give you access to Yachtworld past closed sales to get a feel for true selling price for a given boat. Too much variability in boat configurations and manufacturers...unlike the car world where there really are a limited number of manufacturers and options from factory. Many boat configurations are aftermarket and do get factored into price.|
|12-07-2009 10:16 AM|
NADA Value .. What gives with that ??
I see many boats offered for sale at prices that are extremely
over the NADA value for the boat. As an example: I looked
up one sailboat, the NADA value was $13,000 to $15,000 dollars.
The sailboat owner had run an ad asking for $35,000 dollars.
What puzzled me, the boat did not have any special equipment,
or expensive additions. She was basic in every way.
What does the NADA value mean? I am confused.