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Are you scared of wood?

9K views 35 replies 24 participants last post by  cormeum 
#1 ·
Many people follow my threads on the restoration of Oh Joy it seems. Most just read them and go on, either because they don't know enough to comment or don't see anything to comment on. Some comment about how HUGE the project is and that they are amazed by the undertaking.

Why is that? Now that I've dug into the old girl I'm finding that repairing and restoring this fine old wooden yacht is really quite simple. Folks who own fiberglass boats in particular are usually intimidated by the thought. They don't think anything of stripping the skin off the deck of a glass boat to repair a section of rotten core or cutting out a section of busted glass and repairing it so why would they find a wood boat so intimidating?

I think it's a matter of perspective. As I've gotten into the bones of this old boat, I've discovered that EVERYTHING is repairable or replaceable. Nothing on a wood boat cannot be repaired or replaced. A wooden yacht is just a collection of a thousand little jobs done right, to borrow a phrase. Each component can be taken apart and fixed. Granted, some parts are buried and you have to peel the connecting parts away like the layers of an onion but given enough time, it can be done.

Oh Joy is even more complicated because of the C-Flex sheathing. When doing a rib replacement, I can't just pop the bungs, remove the fasteners and replace the rib like on a true wood boat. I have to carefully cut and peel away a strip of the C-Flex , pop the bungs, remove the fasteners, replace the rib, refasten and then reglass. Everything else is fairly simple. Just don't forget how and where something went. Typically, you can't do that because there are several installations of whatever it is you pulled off right next to it.

Could I do the same with a plastic boat? Maybe... I'm sure I could figure it out. Would I enjoy it as much? Probably not. I hate fiberglass work.

I like working with wood. It's forgiving and it does not care how many times you repair or scarph in a new section or piece. Can the same be said of a section of glass, kevlar or carbon? I don't have to worry about delamination with the exception of the C-Flex and that has proven to be blister and delamination free for 16 years now so I guess I'm safe there.

What about maintenance? When Oh Joy is complete, the only maintenance will be the normal wear and tear a boat has plus the brightwork. Rot? Wood rots. If it's exposed to nature, yes. if it's sealed and cared for properly then no. Part of this restoration is to insure the areas of rot I ran across (mostly caused by really poor repairs) don't come back. Black Locust doesn't rot. You can stick it in the ground for over 100 years and it'll look new when ya pull it. Bugs don't like it and it has all of the qualities you want from a piece of wood for building boats. That's why I'm replacing any marginal wood structural members with it. Also, modern sealants such as Sanitred, which adhere at the molecular level, which are waterproof and UV proof will keep the enemy (fresh water) from the wood.

So, back to the maintenance issue. Varnish, plenty of it too. If properly applied, varnish, when refreshed with a couple of annual coats, will last up to 10 years. Stripping the brightwork of varnish or "wooding" CAN SOUND INTIMIDATING BUT IT'S REALLY NOT THAT HARD. It is time consuming but it only has to happen once a decade if you do it right and perform some simple maintenance. Planking? Planking is an issue with a traditional wood boat but not so with my girl. the planks don't see any water nor are they free to move around and work loose because of the C-Flex. Planks really aren't that hard to replace on a wooden boat either so that wouldn't scare me, not anymore.

So is there really maintenance in a wooden boat than a glass one? Not really. It's a matter of perception. Is there a difference in the lifespan between the two? That depends on the luck of the boat. If a wood boat has owners that care then no, it will last longer than a plastic boat because it won't experience delamination, crazing or general breakdown like glass will. Fiberglass does not last forever in a seaworthy form. It can only take a finite amount of flexing and stress before it starts breaking down. Can you fix it? Yes but how do you do that? Don't ask me. Will a glass boat take neglect better than a wooden one? You betcha. Wood boats that are ignored for long periods of time tend to fare far worse than their plastic counterparts.

So it's a trade off. A decently maintained wood boat will last forever, provided a piece here and there is repaired or replaced as needed. I don't know if the same can be said about a plastic boat because they really haven't been around long enough to say. There is a difference in the way the two materials sail though. Wooden yachts are quieter and just feel more solid than glass. I've sailed on both and the difference is undeniable.

What stops folks from owning a wooden boat? Pre-conceptions usually. They hear about how much maintenance is involved from folks who either bought a boat in poor condition or who've never even OWNED a wooden boat. Wooden boats are out there in all shapes, sizes and prices. To me, it's the cheapest way to get into a good boat. If you're intimidated by the prospect of fixing or maintaining one because you don't think you have the skills to do so, read the internet. Go to the WBF. I didn't know much of anything about wooden yacht s when I bought Oh Joy and started this project. I had some mechanical ability and a bit of wood working experience but nothing spectacular. I learned on the job, one little piece at a time. That's all a wooden boat is. A bunch of little pieces tied together. Nothing to be intimidated by at all.

So if you are wanting a sailing or motor yacht and like me, can't afford the latest and greatest, think about wood. Wood boats ask for your time and love and what better way to spend some spare time than on your boat...
 
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#2 ·
Keep trying, Charlie, and eventually you'll convince yourself!!;) :) :D
(kidding, of course)

Seriously, Good post!
 
#3 ·
Charlie,

Thanks for the post. I've built a wooden sailboat before, and my father built several wooden boats, including a great Joel White shellback dinghy (cold molded).

Two questions: I'd like to know more about the c-flex on your hull. Is that like a fiberglass skin put over the wood, or is it a cold-molded layer?

Secondly, used wooden boats I've seen have often had wood rot issues that were pushing the limits. Fiberglass can have rotting cores, but in most cases it seems to happen more slowly. Excellent wooden boat owners are always on top of the small issues and deal with them before they become any type of issue, but owners who walk away from the wooden boat for a couple of years seem to be taking a real risk.

I think everything you say is true, but it seems like a lot of owners don't take the time to prevent or head off the issues the way they need to.
 
#4 ·
Jim, on that we can agree. However, Oh Joy had multiple hidden issues that I dug out during what was supposed to be a refit. What's cool is that I, with the few skills I possess, can do all of this work myself. When I'm done, it'll be simple maintenance to keep ahead. Anything on a wooden boat can be fixed, anything.

The C-Flex is an interesting piece of technology. It was developed as a way to build boats but soon found use by shrimpers and fishermen to extend the life of wooden boats that had hull issues. It's a cloth that has fiberglass rods running through it. It's very flexible, which makes it perfect for sheathing wood boats, if done right. The previous owners decided to go with it to protect Oh Joy (then Liberty) from torredo worms and because the new fasteners they put in only lasted 18 months because of electrolysis.

They way it's done is to strip the outside of the hull of all paint and let the boat dry for 60 days. You then caulk the boat and replace planks or refasten as needed. Then you trowel on 3M 5200. You roll the C-Flex over the 5200 and staple it down with monel staples. After this is done you wet it in with resin. Lastly you fare the hull with a fairing compound. After this you seal it with an epoxy barrier coat and paint.

The end result is a light, flexible sheathing that's bound both chemically and mechanically. Now all ya have to do is keep fresh water out.
 
#5 ·
Just as you say, Charlie, I follow your restoration avidly and enjoy it vicariously, much as I would someone's account of solo backpacking through northern Alaska. Love reading about it, not gonna do it.

Am I scared of wood? Of course. Your defense aside, I've never read anything that suggested that the maintenance on a wood boat was similar in effort or regularity to that on a plastic one. I guess if all the wood boats out there were made of locust, we'd have it made, but I'm betting they aren't. It's cool that wood boats are so fixable--an excellent feature for the skilled and motivated. But how many have the time or $$ to do all that fixing?

I suspect it's like cars of 30 years ago vs. now. New cars are not nearly as easy to work on as the old ones, but cars used to need so much more fixing to keep them going! I no longer can just go out and replace the points when the car is running rough, but then again it never runs rough. The magic of unknowable electronics--Yay!

My 22-yr-old plastic boat took quite a bit of neglect with hull and deck intact and unharmed, which left me time for all those other systems that all sailboats have. I don't think most plastic owners are as accepting of major fiberglass repair as you think.

When you're done, you say your boat will be fine as long as it is cared for properly--and it's obvious from your excellent work that you'll do it and do it right! But FG boats seem to hang in there a little better even when they aren't cared for properly, which, outside of all the caring owners on Sailnet, is more the norm in the world.

Love your boat, love your project, and enjoy the huge amount of satisfaction such a resto must bring. But that level of effort would be beyond most of us whether it was plastic or wood.

My hat's off to you, Charlie. Keep us posted and enthralled!
 
#7 ·
Well, she's a more narrow design more easily driven through the water. She's 35' on deck and 40' overall with a displacement of 14,500, including the 5,325 worth of lead in the keel so she's fairly light. She rides through heavy seas with relative ease but that's likely more due to design than materials. There's no pounding on a heavy beat nor wave slapping on the hook, again mostly design. She's warmer and quieter than a fiberglass boat too. Smells better in my opinion. There's nothing quite like the look and feel of a wooden yacht. I never thought I'd own one myself. It just worked out that way.
 
#8 ·
..........Could I do the same with a plastic boat? Maybe... I'm sure I could figure it out. Would I enjoy it as much? Probably not. I hate fiberglass work......I like working with wood.......I don't have to worry about delamination with the exception of the C-Flex and that has proven to be blister and delamination free for 16 years now so I guess I'm safe there......So, back to the maintenance issue. Varnish, plenty of it too. If properly applied, varnish, when refreshed with a couple of annual coats, will last up to 10 years......So is there really maintenance in a wooden boat than a glass one?............
All you say is true, but there is more to consider. You are sailing (or is it working?) in the Pacific Northwest. At around 30 degrees latitude and south we have clams that have evolved to use their bivalve shells like teeth and bore through wood (toredo worms). You say you like working with wood and properly applying varnish. Many of us rather be cruising than working on the boat. How many weeks of the year is your boat out of the water? I'm hauled out for maintenance on the average of two weeks every three years. I did repair a delaminated rudder in 1996. That's the only fiberglass repair I've had under the waterline since buying my first liveaboard fiberglass boat in 1971. I have removed the teak toe rails on my 37 year old Morgan and epoxied all the fastener holes. This left me with a largely maintenance free exterior. I still work on my boat. I'm currently removing, inspecting and refinishing my chainplates. We cruised back to Florida from Maine for the winter and in March we're off again for the Bahamas. For many of us, function defines beauty; therefore, my fiberglass boat that simulates a bleach bottle is beautiful. I do appreciate the beauty of a wood boat and 'would hope to have a picture of a boat like yours mounted in a plastic frame fastened to my plastic laminate bulkhead. 'take care and joy, Aythya crew
 
#10 ·
Capt Force. One of the main reasons that Oh Joy was C-Flexed was the concern for toredo worms. They can't eat what they can't get to. Don't get me wrong. As I said in another thread, I would've bought a plastic boat IF I had been able to afford it. Considering I paid about $700.00 USD for Oh Joy including the back slip fees, I couldn't pass her up. I got more than my money's worth before the engine blew in sailing time. I figure that even when I'm done and have about 25K in the boat including yard fees, I'll be way ahead of the curve.
 
#9 · (Edited)
Are you scared of wood?
Yep. I spend more time on my teak toe rails and hand rails than I do on the rest of the hull. Wish they made a nice looking plastic wood replacement for those parts so I could spend more time boating and less time cetoling.
 
#11 ·
"Scared of wood"? I can't be. Every boat I've owned is made of it. I'm surrounded by it. A wooden boat in good conditon requires little more maintenance than a glass one. It just needs it more urgently. If you neglect a wood boat for ten years it's dead. A glass boat might be brought back with a thorough scrubbing.
 
#15 ·
No, I'm not. Work with wood every day of my life. Pay my mortgage with it. But wood as a boatbuilding material? It exhibits nearly all the failure modes of FRP, plus several of its own: water absorption, swelling and shrinkage, rot, marine borers.... A plastic boat is every bit as repairable as a wooden boat, and far less likely to need stripping to the ribs to do it. Reminds me of a friend who bought trashed-out houses at auction, peeled the interior to the framing, redid the framing, redid the interiors, peeled off the exterior, and refaced the whole house. Did a nice job, rescued a sad domicile, made a little money, seemed to enjoy himself. Me, I'd drive a D9 thru the shanty and start from scratch. Or just find a better house.

I love wood, but I wouldn't build a boat out of it -- and a wouldn't own a boat made of it. Family friend had a 35ft Dutch lapstrake that he spent all winter, every winter meticulously scraping, caulking, sanding, painting. Always had blowers going, but it was always musty, and the engine & electrical corroded in the humid wooden bilges. Finally, around late Spring, he'd drop the thing in the water and it would leak like a sieve until the planks swelled up, after which it would leak like a finer sieve. Unless there was chop, when it leaked faster. Once, just after launch, the marine shore power failed and both bilge pumps stopped; guy came back to find his freshly prepped boat sitting on the lake bed. Pull it out, and back to the barn: no sailing this year.

And that's just it. My plastic boats are not all that fancy, but after 35 years of serious, willful neglect each was sailable on the day I bought it and has remained sailable even as I upgrade and refit and repair. The only major structural problem is wet decks -- wet wood-cored decks. ;) I can balance the hours and hassles of upkeep with a little actual sailing. Figure 3:1 repair-to-fun ratio. Every wooden boat owner I know pulls more like 10:1. If that's what you like, great. Not for me. Many woodie owners go years without sailing while they reverse the degradation that cannot be avoided if you place wood near water. Not for me.
 
#16 ·
yet.. wood was the only choice for hundreds, thousands of years! which is why the art evolved so well.

The cost of lumber for boats is the most fear inducing thing about them! We need to remember most of these beauties were built when things were no where near what things cost now. we still had forests with old growth. Also, most wooden boat cultures didn't really build out of love or admiration.. they built them out of necessity. Which is another reason some designs are more popular in differen't areas.
 
#17 ·
I think the expense of some of the materials for wooden boats can be equally off-putting, but the time investment is enormous.

I've helped my parents re-do every bit of plumbing, wiring, refrigeration, prop shaft, rigging, masts, etc on their boat (now 30 years old, and virtually neglected its entire life) and it's a lot of time to be back up to a pristine setting. On the other hand I have some friends who have meticulously maintained wooden boats that need nothing other than regular maintenance, and they still come close to matching the number of hours we're putting in on a yearly basis. The difference is, as we run out of systems to replace and fix, our time commitment to working on the boat grows shorter, and the relaxing & sailing time grows longer. Their maintenance schedule stays pretty consistent.

I do love the beauty of a wooden boat (generally the sexiest sheerlines every laid out IMO), but I loathe the work aspect. I'm definitely in the glass or steel only camp.
 
#19 ·
Works for the used cars I buy so it might work for ya I guess......keep close to shore..:rolleyes:
 
#20 ·
Charlie - First, congratulations on a excellent job. Most people that haven't done the job don't get to see all the steps involved, so you're providing us with a community service. Both my father and uncle built sail and power boats; I worked in a yard that specialized in wood boat repair and have built the Joel White Nutshell Pram so I'm familiar with what you're dealing with. (see Little Mike at Toys)

I think that there are several things to consider regarding why more people don't undertake a restoration of this magnitude.

First, most people don't have the skills and haven't deconstructed the project, so they don't see that a restoration is a thousand little, easy jobs). It's not wood per se, but the how to get from Point A ( a wreck) to Point B (a gem) that is so daunting.

Second, most people want a boat to do the fun stuff. A surveyor told me in jest that the really smart owner is the one that buys a new boat, has fun and does not maintenance and then sells it when it's beat. We all know of a thousand owners that do nothing for themselves which brings me to the next part.

It is difficult to get a wood boat in good shape, so most older wood boat buyers are immediately getting into a project that they either can't pay for or don't have the skills to complete.

Fourth, I don't think that it's an either-or thing. There are advantages to glass and wood. IMO, glass is easier and may or may not be eternal. Since most people don't own their boat that long, longevity isn't really a concern.

Fifth, wood is far more expensive to construct and this is the single most significant reason IMO that people shy away from wood. Without the skills to work wood, an owner would need significant resources to restore a vessel such as Oh Joy. A new wood boat? Very expensive since each and every component must be manufactured in a one-off fashion. As for performance, wood doesn't have it unless it's a dinghy (a notable example is the GP-14 - MUCH better in wood than glass).

You are doing a magnificent job, but it's not for everyone. My father went from owning 3 successive glass boats to working nearly full time on the Gazela of Philadelphia. By that point in his life, he loved working on boats far more than sailing them. I suspect that you are gaining as much joy from Oh Joy right now as you will when she's done. Perhaps more. Keep up the great work and posts.
 
#21 ·
Agreed Sabre - Charlie is doing a phenomenal job.

Charlie, you really should chronicle all this in a book. S/V Oh Joy is becoming one of the most famous boats in the world already! And it's been really fun following the progress.

If you do end up writing a book, put me down for one.
 
#22 ·
I've built two wood boats, toying with a 3rd. An 8' pram then 12' sloop, now might be a dinghy for current plastic boat. Would be a sailing dinghy. Still have the plans for the pram, along with the sail. Not sure how I still have the sail, as I sold the dinghy back in 76 or there abouts...........anyway.

Keep up the work charlie.

marty
 
#25 ·
Many people follow my threads on the restoration of Oh Joy it seems. Most just read them and go on, either because they don't know enough to comment or don't see anything to comment on. Some comment about how HUGE the project is and that they are amazed by the undertaking.

Why is that? Now that I've dug into the old girl I'm finding that repairing and restoring this fine old wooden yacht is really quite simple. Folks who own fiberglass boats in particular are usually intimidated by the thought. They don't think anything of stripping the skin off the deck of a glass boat to repair a section of rotten core or cutting out a section of busted glass and repairing it so why would they find a wood boat so intimidating?

I think it's a matter of perspective. As I've gotten into the bones of this old boat, I've discovered that EVERYTHING is repairable or replaceable. Nothing on a wood boat cannot be repaired or replaced. A wooden yacht is just a collection of a thousand little jobs done right, to borrow a phrase. Each component can be taken apart and fixed. Granted, some parts are buried and you have to peel the connecting parts away like the layers of an onion but given enough time, it can be done.

What about maintenance? When Oh Joy is complete, the only maintenance will be the normal wear and tear a boat has plus the brightwork. Rot? Wood rots. If it's exposed to nature, yes. if it's sealed and cared for properly then no. Part of this restoration is to insure the areas of rot I ran across (mostly caused by really poor repairs) don't come back. Black Locust doesn't rot. You can stick it in the ground for over 100 years and it'll look new when ya pull it. Bugs don't like it and it has all of the qualities you want from a piece of wood for building boats. That's why I'm replacing any marginal wood structural members with it. Also, modern sealants such as Sanitred, which adhere at the molecular level, which are waterproof and UV proof will keep the enemy (fresh water) from the wood.

So, back to the maintenance issue. Varnish, plenty of it too. If properly applied, varnish, when refreshed with a couple of annual coats, will last up to 10 years. Stripping the brightwork of varnish or "wooding" CAN SOUND INTIMIDATING BUT IT'S REALLY NOT THAT HARD. It is time consuming but it only has to happen once a decade if you do it right and perform some simple maintenance. Planking? Planking is an issue with a traditional wood boat but not so with my girl. the planks don't see any water nor are they free to move around and work loose because of the C-Flex. Planks really aren't that hard to replace on a wooden boat either so that wouldn't scare me, not anymore.

So is there really maintenance in a wooden boat than a glass one? Not really. It's a matter of perception. Is there a difference in the lifespan between the two? That depends on the luck of the boat. If a wood boat has owners that care then no, it will last longer than a plastic boat because it won't experience delamination, crazing or general breakdown like glass will. Fiberglass does not last forever in a seaworthy form. It can only take a finite amount of flexing and stress before it starts breaking down. Can you fix it? Yes but how do you do that? Don't ask me. Will a glass boat take neglect better than a wooden one? You betcha. Wood boats that are ignored for long periods of time tend to fare far worse than their plastic counterparts.

So it's a trade off. A decently maintained wood boat will last forever, provided a piece here and there is repaired or replaced as needed. I don't know if the same can be said about a plastic boat because they really haven't been around long enough to say. There is a difference in the way the two materials sail though. Wooden yachts are quieter and just feel more solid than glass. I've sailed on both and the difference is undeniable.

What stops folks from owning a wooden boat? Pre-conceptions usually. They hear about how much maintenance is involved from folks who either bought a boat in poor condition or who've never even OWNED a wooden boat. Wooden boats are out there in all shapes, sizes and prices. To me, it's the cheapest way to get into a good boat. If you're intimidated by the prospect of fixing or maintaining one because you don't think you have the skills to do so, read the internet. Go to the WBF. I didn't know much of anything about wooden yacht s when I bought Oh Joy and started this project. I had some mechanical ability and a bit of wood working experience but nothing spectacular. I learned on the job, one little piece at a time. That's all a wooden boat is. A bunch of little pieces tied together. Nothing to be intimidated by at all.

So if you are wanting a sailing or motor yacht and like me, can't afford the latest and greatest, think about wood. Wood boats ask for your time and love and what better way to spend some spare time than on your boat...
Amen, Brother. :D
I like to juice people and say ours is made of "Unidirectionally Reinforced Cellular Composite". :laugher
 
#28 ·
About 15 yrs ago I bought an old tired/retired lobster fishing boat (wooden of course) Built in 1971, she was open to stack lobster pots, a plywood box in the middle of housed a 292 chev 6 cylinder with a straight pipe stuck up thru the middle of it.

I fell in love with her sweet sheer, her long slim hull.(40' long x 10' beam)...and her asking price... Well I put on my rose colored glasses paid the 2,000$ and hauled her off the shore line and drove my baby home.

Where am I going with this you ask? Well after the honeymoon, I began poking around in her past and came up with quite a few questionable areas, soft spots in the planking, broken frames etc.

The hull is pine strip plank, edge nailed with steam bent timbers. The first small piece of planking I removed was about 1 1\2'' x 14'' long and i didn't sleep that night. ''She'll never float again''. Since that day I have replaced all of the garboard planks, all of the stern section from one waterline to the other, and at one point could go in and out thru the bow to get tools etc.

Steamed in new timbers in 75% of the boat, replaced the biddings under the motor, (also put in a John Deere diesel). Built a cabin and basically have never stopped with projects, improvements, upgrades etc.

Would I do it again, probably NOT, but every weekend when we are anchored in some remote cove, a scotch in hand there is such a feeling of contentment and satisfaction that I have no doubt in my mind that it was worth every bit of effort expended.

Wood is quiet, warm and if you keep the fresh water out of the mix will last a long, long time.

I think it comes down to wither you are a guy who likes to work on your boat, be it puttering or more extensive stuff or you leave all that stuff for the guys at the yard.

15 yrs ago I could not have afforded to purchase a 40' Pleasure Yacht. I would have had to work hard, save my money for 15yrs or so before buying.

I choose to buy a PROJECT, worked hard at it yes but as the saying goes, '' it's only hard work if you don't enjoy what your doing''. Plus I have gotten to use the boat every summer for the 15 yrs,during which time the kids were young (read willing to go with Mom and Dad...).

Anyhow folks a wooden boat, - the right path for everyone - certainly not,
but just don't run past that woody at your yard, beneath the peeling paint there lies possibilities. Today I am installing a couple of cabinet doors in the wheelhouse. (And I gotta get at it !)

All the best, Wilson
 
#29 ·
Personally if I was going to go through all that I would put the effort into a steel boat. Like wood they can be easily worked on by the owner with basic tools and are little more than thousand jobs done right.

But glass is cheaper in both time and money so glass it is for me.

That said I do hope that wood boats never rot away, they are what boating has been for thousands of years. That alone makes them a worthy project.
 
#30 · (Edited)
"Hello my name is Medsailor and I'm a recovering wooden boat owner. It's been 762 days since I have owned a wooden boat"

Chorus: "Hi medsailor"

Am I scared of wood?

YES.

Why? Because the care and feeding of them is largely a lost art. I tried to learn everything I could and be a good wooden boat owner but nobody told me that electrolysis near wood would eat it away in a way that is invisible to visual inspection. My keel timber (8"10" solid oak) and it's floor timbers which supported my 3,500lb keel had the tensile and sheer strength of cooked spinach and I didn't even know it. Good thing I didn't sail her hard those last couple years.:eek: Working with wood is very gratifying, but worrying about cracking a plank in a storm (again, because I did that too) almost gave me another ulcer.

On the plus side, based on my experience over 7 years with many many problems and near-sinkings with that boat, I do believe that wooden boats are highly favored by the gods of the sea, which is very important. May the gods be with you and your boat. :)

Medsailor
Proud owner of an ridiculously overbuilt full keeled plastic boat with an encapsulated (ie doesn't fall off) keel.

PS If you every want to talk bilge-pumps pm me. I'm quite sure I have more experience with them than anyone on earth.
 
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