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Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Boat Review and Purchase Forum > NADA no longer providing prices older than 1975
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Thread: NADA no longer providing prices older than 1975 Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
01-09-2010 02:33 PM
eherlihy ... Oh yeah, I forgot to mention this caution about SoldBoats.com

Some other thread in SailNet, pertaining to selling prices, cas some doubt on the accuracy of the prices stated through SoldBoats.com. (it may have been earlier in this thread, but I'll leave it to you to dig it up.) One poster in that thread mentioned that they sold their boat through a broker on YachtWorld and the broker posted the selling price at $15K higher than the selling price. Brokers are incented with inflating selling prices to keep their subsequent commissions high. (Is there a down side to a broker overstating the selling price in SBDC?) It was suggested by some other poster that the broker might have taken $15K from the buyer as commission (this would figure if the boat was sold for $150K) but I doubt that was the case in this instance. IIRC, the poster did not respond, so the accuracy of the selling prices in SoldBoats.com remains a question.
01-06-2010 02:47 PM
Jasper Windvane My last broker boat purchase [ long time ago, would not even speak to a broker today ] , the broker told their organization I paid many
thousands of dollars more than I actually did pay. I actually saw the reported paid price, a friend got it for me. The broker lied through the
teeth. Was I surprised, everything that broker said was a lie. The day of the week, the date, the country .. Boat brokers are lying weasels. Do you actually believe they are going to tell their organization made up of other lying weasels the truth? Ha Ha Ha ..
That's a good one.
01-06-2010 02:38 PM
eherlihy
The Devil is in the Details

Footnotes from NADA;

"Value Explanations

Prices shown are retail consumer values and to be considered as selling prices. Trade-in values are to be determined by local dealers and are generally lower than values shown.

Suggested List – We have included manufacturers' suggested retail pricing (MSRP) to assist in the financing, insuring and appraising of vessels. The MSRP is the manufacturers' and/or distributors' highest suggested retail price in the U.S.A. when the unit was new. The MSRP is furnished by the manufacturer and/or distributor and are assumed to be correct. Unless indicated, the MSRP does not include destination charges, dealer set-up, state or local taxes, license tags or insurance.

Low Retail Value — A low retail valued boat will show excessive wear and tear either cosmetically and/or mechanically. This boat may or may not be in running order. The buyer can expect to invest in cosmetic and/or mechanical work. Low retail vessels usually are not found on a dealer's lot. Low Retail is not a trade-in value.

Average Retail Value — An average retail valued boat should be in good condition with no visible damage or defects. This boat will show moderate wear and tear and will be in sound running condition. The buyer may need to invest in either minor cosmetic or mechanical work. [This is the number that I pay attention to from NADA. From this I deduct repair or replacement for things that are broken or at the end of their useful life. But then, as I stated earlier, I think that NADA values frequently run lower than reality for the boats that I'm interested in . I guess that what I'm trying to say is that I really don't pay too much attention to NADA - Ed]

Note: Vessels in exceptional condition can be worth a significantly higher value than the Average Retail Price shown.
"

BUC's footnotes are even more explicit if you follow the links. I'd copy/paste them, but I don't want to use my last free quote to illustrate my point.

What I will do is point the reader to the earlier discussion on Actual Selling Price which should address what I suspect is the actual issue at hand.

Oh, and I really feel sorry for the guy that paid $10,591 in '03. It seems that PT Barnum was right!
01-06-2010 01:15 PM
Maine Sail
Quote:
Originally Posted by eherlihy View Post
I believe that anyone considering the purchase of a used boat should have as much information about the purchase as possible. It is another data point that should help any prospective buyer make an informed decision. Knowing the market for a particular year make and model can be as important as knowing what brand of engine, or the moisture reading of the hull and deck.

I have to respectfully disagree with Main Sail on his characterization on NADA as "Their values have been about as accurate as a drunk shooting darts from 40 yards." Unless he knows better drunk dart players than I do... NADA, IMHO, is consistently at the low end of the spectrum.

I also, respectfully, disagree about soldboats.com being the ONLY close to accurate resource. BUCvalue (Boat Values, Prices, Evaluations, Used Boat Price Guides - BUCValu) is another resource, which I believe is slightly more accurate, and it allows 3 price views in a 3 month time window. I have also looked at SOLD prices in eBay as a data point.

Using your example here is a comparison of the values from the three main sources (BUCvalu, NADAguides, and SoldBoats.com) for a '75 Columbia 26.

BUCvalu; $5450-$6250



NADAguides $5650-$6400 - Note that this is a little HIGHER than BUC



SoldBoats.com

Note the range of years (1972-1978), and the range of dates of sale (1996-2010) that I used in my search... If I tighten up the dates of sale to last year only, there were 2 that sold. The one in GA, listed for $2995, which sold for $2400 after 14 months, and one in NC, listed for $10, and sold for $10 after 20 months. If you were using SoldBoats to figure the current average selling price of this boat (2410 / 2 = $1205), you would be far under what BUC and NADA provide.



I would state that there is more information available through Soldboats.com. However, the only accurate measure of the value of a specific boat to you is what you are willing to pay for it, and what the seller is willing to accept.

I've said this elsewhere in SailNet; "The value of any specific boat (or anything) is only determined after a specific seller and a specific buyer agree to a specific price at a specific time. Changing any one of these can affect the price dramatically."

I hope this helps!

Ed,

I rest my case! As you can see NADA and BUC are off the mark from real selling prices and DO NOT give ACTUAL sales numbers. This is why you NEED a range and multiple sold comps, with actual selling prices, to help determine value. Soldboats.com also links to the ACTUAL boats listed so you can compare condition and equipment but I forget how far back the data goes on the actual listings.

Lets say you stumble across a boat in need of "restoration" lbut the owner has used NADA to value it at $6400.00. Without having access to the data on SB.com, and the actual listing pages so you can compare condition, you could concievably over pay by $5200.00 without using a surveyor. This happens more than you would think. My yard gets aquite a few boats that fall into this category, that wind up being abandoned by the owner who bought it thinking they got a good deal..

If a seller were to use BUC or NADA, on a basket case like the two sales on soldboats.com obviously were, any seller could point to BUC or NADA and get more money out of a novice buyer than they should. This is a clear example of why a sureveyor should be involved to aid in determination of value not to mention you would need one to carry liability insurance.

Surveyors usually pay for themselves in savings. This scenarios flips flops too and sellers also get screwed by BUC and NADA, though BUC less so than NADA. My buddy Kyle is a broker and he runs numbers very often for customers. Nearly every time BUC (less so) and NADA more so, completely miss the mark.

You can't dumb down a boat sale to a small range (1975 C olumbia) as there are far to many variables. Many boats were built for many production years with little change, Soldboats shows WHY there are variables in value. You can also contact the selling broker for more information as they will sometimes remember the vessel.

In nearly 40 years of boating I have yet to see more than a couple of folks win by not using a broker or surveyor. There are bad surveyors and brokers just like bad doctors, lawyers, accountants and engineers. I know some excellent ones..

A buddy of mine was looking for a center console via the net, Craigslist etc. etc.. He was ready to pay about 22k for the boat he wanted whn I intervened. I had Kyle run a soldboats.com query. These boats were actually selling for about 15k and nowhere near the 23.5k asking prices seen on CraigsList. He took the SB.com query to the seller, with his surveyor, and wound up buying the boat for 14k after survey. Asking price based on NADA was 23.5k which is what the seller had been asking...

As you and I both said, any boat is only worth what a buyer is willing to pay. I still feel SB.com is the only somewhat accurate measure of used boat value we have as it has the data and listings to back it up and all these can be compared to the boat you are buying.

1975 SOLD Columbia's From SB.com


1000.00 - Outside BUC NADA value range
4695.00 -
Outside BUC NADA value range
8665.00
- Outside BUC NADA value range
6000.00
- Within BUC NADA value range
5199.00
- Outside BUC NADA value range
4000.00
- Outside BUC NADA value range
6100.00
- Within BUC NADA value range
6500.00 - Outside BUC NADA value range

Based on real sales data of actual boats sold, where the data can be seen as can listing, both NADA and BUC are way out of the ball park. Boats in RED fall outside the "range"" given by both NADA and BUC. 75% of the time these boats sold OUTSIDE the value guidance given by BUC & NADA. They only hit 25% of the actual sales with their LOW to HIGH retail range...... Hmm...
01-06-2010 12:37 PM
tommays NADA 1981 J24

Length: 24'
Model Name/Description: J/24
Boat Type: Monohull Sailboats
Hull Material: Fiberglass


TOTAL PRICE $4,620 $5,230

Perhaps there talking about the sunken ones ?
01-06-2010 12:09 PM
eherlihy
Market Study

I believe that anyone considering the purchase of a used boat should have as much information about the purchase as possible. It is another data point that should help any prospective buyer make an informed decision. Knowing the market for a particular year make and model can be as important as knowing what brand of engine, or the moisture reading of the hull and deck.

I have to respectfully disagree with Main Sail on his characterization on NADA as "Their values have been about as accurate as a drunk shooting darts from 40 yards." Unless he knows better drunk dart players than I do... NADA, IMHO, is consistently at the low end of the spectrum.

I also, respectfully, disagree about soldboats.com being the ONLY close to accurate resource. BUCvalue (Boat Values, Prices, Evaluations, Used Boat Price Guides - BUCValu) is another resource, which I believe is slightly more accurate, and it allows 3 price views in a 3 month time window. I have also looked at SOLD prices in eBay as a data point.

Using your example here is a comparison of the values from the three main sources (BUCvalu, NADAguides, and SoldBoats.com) for a '75 Columbia 26.

BUCvalu; $5450-$6250



NADAguides $5650-$6400 - Note that this is a little HIGHER than BUC



SoldBoats.com

Note the range of years (1972-1978), and the range of dates of sale (1996-2010) that I used in my search... If I tighten up the dates of sale to last year only, there were 2 that sold. The one in GA, listed for $2995, which sold for $2400 after 14 months, and one in NC, listed for $10, and sold for $10 after 20 months. If you were using SoldBoats to figure the current average selling price of this boat (2410 / 2 = $1205), you would be far under what BUC and NADA provide.



I would state that there is more information available through Soldboats.com. However, the only accurate measure of the value of a specific boat to you is what you are willing to pay for it, and what the seller is willing to accept.

I've said this elsewhere in SailNet; "The value of any specific boat (or anything) is only determined after a specific seller and a specific buyer agree to a specific price at a specific time. Changing any one of these can affect the price dramatically."

I hope this helps!
01-06-2010 10:30 AM
Jasper Windvane I totally disagree with maine sail.. I think NADA is a very good
price guide. Owner/sellers don't like it.. and surveyors and
brokers hate it.. that is because the broker is telling the owner
his boat is worth many thousands more than it actually is.

I must qualify my opinion by admitting: I hate boat brokers, and do not
trust boat surveyors..
01-06-2010 07:50 AM
Maine Sail
Quote:
Originally Posted by dgr View Post
No doubt that is a part of it.
No one in the marine industry has taken NADA seriously for years. Their values have been about as accurate as a drunk shooting darts from 40 yards. They could just as well drop all boats as garbage in = garbage out.




Quote:
Originally Posted by dgr View Post
Do you really think there is a significant difference between a (for example) 1974 Columbia 26 and a 1975 Columbia 26?
It does not matter what you or I or NADA think. Boats are not valued like cars and unfortunately that is how NADA tried to apply its formula. Boats are valued on, condition, market, what an buyer is willing to pay, what buyers have paid for similar models and the selling prices from soldboats.com. Some models have actually gone up in value and good brokers and surveyors, who value boats for a living, understand how to more closely asses the value of a boat than NADA..



Quote:
Originally Posted by dgr View Post
Prior to a month or two ago, NADA was able to accomplish that feat.
I guess that all depends on how you define "accomplish". If you define it as putting inaccurate numbers, apparently compiled using the drunk & a dart board method, then posted on a web site that where they are often off as much as 50% from real and actual sales data then, yes, I guess they "accomplished" valuing boats..

Quote:
Originally Posted by dgr View Post
I know they went back to 1970, at least and am fairly confident they went back to 1968 which is the oldest year for my model.
They could have gone back to 1923 but bad data, is still bad data, and completely useless in the whole scheme of things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dgr View Post
There were also a lot of boats built in the 60s and 70s that are still chugging along. Yachtworld lists 562 sailboats under 51 feet for sale in the US and Canada built between 1970 and 1974. 1270 for 1970 to 1979. Definitely fewer boats in that era but I think there is something else going on here.
Yes there is something else it is called Soldboats.com and it uses actual selling prices as reportedby brokers ans sales agents afiliated with Yachtworld.com.

As I mentioned before Soldboats.com is the ONLY close to accurate measure we have to value boats. Surveyors use it, yacht brokers use it and this is generally how values are defined, with ACTUAL selling price data, as reported by brokers. Brokers DO NOT report data to NADA so any data they post is prety much pure guess work, not accurate and basically a good way for either a seller or buyer to get screwed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dgr View Post
I'm guessing they did a 25 year whack of the data for bean counting purposes right around the decade mark. Which would make sense if they printed paper versions. But storage is practically free in the computer world.
Perhaps they dropped it because they realized that they had no place guessing at this data and decided to be kind to people and stop posting bogus figures that meant squat..

If you want close to accurate values find a good broker and they will usually print you a list from soldboats.com of sold comps so you'll have a range to work with.
01-06-2010 01:08 AM
gr8trn Kinda like not getting older cars on KBB. I have never found NADA to be very helpful anyhow.
Greg
01-05-2010 02:23 PM
dgr No doubt that is a part of it. Do you really think there is a significant difference between a (for example) 1974 Columbia 26 and a 1975 Columbia 26? Prior to a month or two ago, NADA was able to accomplish that feat. I know they went back to 1970, at least and am fairly confident they went back to 1968 which is the oldest year for my model.

There were also a lot of boats built in the 60s and 70s that are still chugging along. Yachtworld lists 562 sailboats under 51 feet for sale in the US and Canada built between 1970 and 1974. 1270 for 1970 to 1979. Definitely fewer boats in that era but I think there is something else going on here.

I'm guessing they did a 25 year whack of the data for bean counting purposes right around the decade mark. Which would make sense if they printed paper versions. But storage is practically free in the computer world.
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