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My seat-of-the-pants lesson for today...

10K views 81 replies 20 participants last post by  Ajax_MD 
#1 · (Edited)
I woke up this morning to a forecast of sunny, low F50's, and 10-15 kt winds and 1-2 ' seas on the Chesapeake Bay. Geeze, does it get any better than that in January?

A short walk down to the jetty shows that the ice isn't all gone, but it looks "rotten". Hm. I tell the kids to get dressed and I start loading up the safety gear. About 11 am we're ready to go. A few pokes with the boat hook shows that the ice is porous and weak so I fire up the engine and we push out. A few hundred yards and we're past the ice. This is my second sail, and my first attempt at sailing with both sails.

Here's where things get interesting:

I have press-ganged 2 fifteen-year olds as my crew. They know boating, but know even less about sail than I do. After we get to a suitably wide point on the Rhode River, it's time to raise sail, but the wind is up our arse. We make a U-turn to put the bow into the wind and I raise the main.

Mistake #1:
I don't have a roller furled jib, so NOW I decide to hank it on to the forestay because I was worried that the wind would catch it if I did it earlier. We fall off the wind and we're being dragged to the edge of the channel by the main.

I lower the main and the kid on the tiller gets us back into the wind and in the channel.

Mistake #2
I hank on the jib. I raise the main, tie it off, I raise the jib and promptly note that I did not clip the tack down.

This jib is not a 90 or 100% like I thought, it's a 110% at least. The jib is flogging me to death so I start to haul it down so I can clip on the tack. The halyard jams, and I'm an inch away from clipping the jib tack, getting my ass totally handed to me by the jib. I make my way back to the boom, and see where the halyard jammed, get it loose, clip the tack to the chainplate.
All the while, the kid kept us in the channel, on course, and into the wind. Thank God.

I return to the cockpit and catch my breath. I put the tiller over, the sails fill, pushing us sideways, and we make another U-turn, and resume heading out. I kill the engine, reveling in the silence.

Mistake #3
The sails are full but the wind doesn't feel right and the sails are...kind of flapping like the wind might get in front of them. I sense a gybe coming on and tighten the main sheet just in time to lessen the "BANG" as the wind flipped it over. I misjudged the direction of the wind, or it slightly shifted direction on me, probably the former.

We only had to run before the wind for a few hundred yards until we could round a channel marker and get the wind mostly on the beam so I just kept a very close watch and kept the main sheet tight.

We rounded the channel marker and from there, the rest of the day was pure bliss. We re-trimmed the sails and I could feel the boat power up. We had a slight heel, and I had lots of time to observe the tell-tales and experiment with sail trim. We race-tracked up and down the Rhode River, and got to practice our tacking.

Mistake #4
With 10-15kt winds, and being a total newb on my 2nd trip, I should have put a reef in. On our 2nd lap outbound towards the Bay, we caught a long, powerful gust that really sped us up and put some heel on. That was when I realized that mistake.

On the way in, I noticed that the wind seemed to change from North to Northwest. This enabled us to sail nearly all the way up the river, up Whitemarsh Creek, and to the final bend before our cove before we had to start the engine for the last few hundred yards. I backed us in for a perfect stern-first mooring.

So I made some mistakes that could have really bit me in the ass and I realize that I was saved by two things:

My kids being in rare form and actually using their brains when I got into trouble and plain old luck. It was a great lesson though and we all had a great time.
 
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#4 ·
Bubblehead—

Highly recommend you get and read Dave Seidman's book, The Complete Sailor. Only about $16 at the local bookstore.
 
#6 ·
The Rhode River is a really beautiful place to sail with Camp Letts on one side. My buddy keeps a sailboat at the Blue Water marina there that I have been on a few times.
I can only say that you didn't make any critical mistakes and that you obviously learned a lot by going out when you did. I encourage you to keep trying and it will all get easier once you figure out how to get your hull off of the bottom.
The winds can be a bit flukey near all the points of land in that river and it is not at all surprising that they may have shifted on you. The best piece of advise that I can offer you is to keep a good eye on the surface of the water and you will be able to see the gusts as they come up by the dark areas they carve out on the top of the water (I call them Cat's Paws). Stronger gusts will often seem to change direction by quite a number of degrees before the actual gust hits. The best advise I can give is to steer with the wind you are experiencing at the moment which may mean heading up or down wind - sail by what the sails tell you - while keeping an eye out for when the main gust will hit you. This may mean letting your main out (or traveler) or heading upwind and sometimes both actions will help keeping the boat more 'level'.
There are lots of variations. If you are going downwind and it is gusty you might consider going down the Rhode River under jib alone and jybing it as necessary to avoid the shallow spots. Similarly, if you are going upwind you might consider using the main sail and a small jib or just main alone when trying to tack upwind.
That was some good work getting out on the Rhode River and into the Chessy with some novice 15 year old 'press gang' crew.
Try getting in and out of your slip without the engine sometime. It can be done if you have enough able hands on board. We did it last summer on my friends 32' Endeavor where getting out was much more difficult then getting back in under sail alone. There were 4 able hands though and we must have hit the bottom at least 3 times.
It is really nice to have a working auxiliary engine on a sailboat - but not absolutely necessary in all conditions - if you have a good, seasoned crew on board.
My point?: keep doing what you are doing. Keep an anchor handy that you can use to kedge you off the bottom once you find it. You will figure it all out. You are doing great!
 
#8 ·
You learn more when things go wrong so if you keep it up by spring you should be a pro. Winds change more in rivers compared to out in the open bay. The winds flow around trees, creeks and rivers try keeping an eye on the water in front of you (watch ripples an waves). Also you may not have needed to reef if you used a smaller jib. I never even used my genoa the first year. Thanks for being an ice braker maybe I will make it to that boat.
 
#19 ·
Lap,
My friends boat is an Endeavor 32' called 'Que Sera' berthed near 'Traveler'. I'm not sure about the draft of this boat but it has got to be at least 4' and we have found the bottom quite a few times on it. If you explore the Rhode River by 'Low Island' near Camp Letts you will find some rather skinny water indeed. In the summer my friend just jumps overboard and pushes the boat when there is little/no wind. In the winter I guess one would not want to do that!
BubbleheadMd,
I know you did not report running aground. If you stay in the channel (as you reported doing) and head out into the bay you will likely steer clear of the bottom. Running aground in your area is an inevitability if you like to explore outside the marked channels. It really is a great area for sailing though.
Again, congrats on your successful January sail.
 
#10 ·
I'm not sure where the talk of grounding came from. That's about the only mistake I DIDN'T make- I never touched the bottom.

I was using my smaller jib. I think the dang boat came with a 110 and a 130. I'd really like my "working" jib to be a 90 or 100.

The jibs appear to be in pretty decent shape, it's just the main that's "tired but serviceable". I've already priced a replacement so I'll buy it come the Spring.

Riddle me this folks:

If I'm supposed to prep the jib before I get underway, how do I keep it doused, and under control while I motor out to the area where I have enough room to raise sails? Do I just pile it up and place something heavy on it or what?

I'm old-school, no roller-furling system.
 
#11 ·
One simple way to do this is to tie a small line from a deck fitting to the forestay, above the top hank of jib. That will prevent the jib from trying to self-deploy...
 
#13 ·
Great tips guys. I especially like the idea of stuffing the meat of the sail into the bag on the deck. While I'm tied up, I'll try a couple of different methods.

John, I greatly appreciate your concern and respect your skill and experience but I can't hide in the closet on every day that isn't 85F and sunny with 5kt winds.

I had on a new, Type I PDF, I've schooled my "crew" in operation of the VHF, and the fire extinguisher, and MOB procedures. I was towing a dink that I told them to untie if I fell off, that I'd swim to as well. Assuming the cold water didn't kill me in the first few minutes. I have stood on the Arctic icepack at the North Pole (more than once). I know the dangers of the cold water.

I tell a good story, but I was more at risk of ruining the jib or getting stuck on the edge of the channel than incurring an injury or death. :)
 
#14 ·
Bubble,

To tame a hanked-on jib, JohnR's suggestion is what most people do. However, I would pull the sail out of the bag before you left the dock and just hank the sail on, attach the halyard, and wrap a gasket around the balled-up sail. That way there's one less thing to keep track of, and it saves you from having to fish the bag out of the water if/when it gets away from you. Depending on how strong the wind is, you may or may not bother using another gasket to secure the peak of the sail; unless the wind is really pumping the balled-up/tied-up sail will just sit there on the foredeck, waiting for someone to free it so it can play.

Also, while Type I PFD's offer the best buoyancy, they are usually pretty awkward to wear while you're sailing. You might want to get some Type III vests (or go to the extreme and get some inflatable PFDs) . You'll be trading a bit of buoyancy for the ability to work/sail much more easily. You may opt for the additional sense of "security" that the additional floatation of a Type I offers, but that "security" may be quite deceptive, as it has to be balanced against the "security" that the additional mobility a Type III affords (including ones increased ability to keep the boat out of danger, and the increased ability to stay on the boat in the first place).
 
#15 ·
Bubble

you need to read up on hypothermia

With ice in the water it is likely that your fingers will not work within 2 minutes and there is a high risk of instant cardiac arrest depending on the person


Which is fine for you as and adult BUT not a good thing for 15 year olds who dont know better
 
#17 ·
Scroll up two posts, read my complete statement. I know what hypothermia does and how quickly it occurs. It's not good for an adult or a kid. I'm a 20 year Navy man, and I've been in all weather conditions on large and small vessels. Do you think I just threw them on the boat without any kind of pre-departure brief or training?

My opinion is that yet another weekend in front of the video game console or texting on the cell phone is even worse for them.

I gladly accept all critiques of my sailing abilities, but keep your parenting advice to yourself.

My kids go horseback riding, skiing (water and snow), motorcycling and now sailing. I won't lock them in their rooms until they're 18 like most modern parents.

Life is hard, life is dangerous, no one gets out alive and some of us depart sooner than others. Call CPS on me if you like.
 
#18 ·
Scroll up two posts, read my complete statement. I know what hypothermia does and how quickly it occurs. It's not good for an adult or a kid. I'm a 20 year Navy man, and I've been in all weather conditions on large and small vessels. Do you think I just threw them on the boat without any kind of pre-departure brief or training?

My opinion is that yet another weekend in front of the video game console or texting on the cell phone is even worse for them.

I gladly accept all critiques of my sailing abilities, but keep your parenting advice to yourself.

My kids go horseback riding, skiing (water and snow), motorcycling and now sailing. I won't lock them in their rooms until they're 18 like most modern parents.

Life is hard, life is dangerous, no one gets out alive and some of us depart sooner than others. Call CPS on me if you like.
Those are some helpful precautions you're taking, and it's good that you're thinking about the dangers. But as some others have pointed out, there's still a great deal of risk due to hypothermia.

With water temps what they are, it's unlikely you or anyone else would be able to swim to the dinghy -- it would need to be delivered to the MOB. Releasing it from the boat would in my opinion be a huge mistake and I would urge you not to tell your crew to do that. Even if the MOB was still capable of swimming, a loose dinghy will drift quickly with the wind and that would be moderately advantageous only if the MOB fell in while close hauled. Even then, the dinghy would not drift down directly at the MOB.

In these kinds of conditions, you and crew should be harnessed in at all times to prevent going overboard in the first instance. That means you'll need jacklines run port and starboard along the sidedecks, and proper harnesses and tethers. Also, you should have your MOB lifting harness on deck and ready to go to reduce the amount of time it takes to get someone back on board if they go over despite these precautions.

This is not a question of parenting skills or choices. This is proper seamanship and safety precautions for the prevailing conditions. I cannot emphasize enough that the plan you have in mind for using the dinghy as a MOB recovery device is very poorly conceived.
 
#20 ·
Let's expand on that John.

I have a harness. I'll buy a few more for whomever I take onboard as "crew". As you say, it's good seamanship so chalk it up as "Mistake #5".

If one of my young crew fall overboard, I can haul them back in. If I fall overboard, I'm just chum for the fish. They aren't going to pull me back in.

I suppose you're right, that releasing the dink for me to get to, isn't the best plan. If I'm harnessed, they should douse the sails and stop the boat so that I can pull myself back to the boat. I have a ladder. This all operates on the premise that I'll be conscious and functional in the cold water.

The premise that I operate on, is that I'll be dead 30 seconds after entering the cold water, so the focus is on not entering the water. The whole time that the jib was flogging me, my primary concern was my grip and my stability. I would have let the sail shred itself and just returned to the cockpit if at any moment I felt that I was being overcome. The lifejacket was so that someone could find my body later, after my "crew" called for help as I instructed them. They are directed to remain near me if possible, but not to attemt to retrieve me unless I am conscious and giving them direction (of course I wasn't expecting to be conscious).

You know, the more I review the initial post, the more I understand that I am a reckless and poor seaman. It's wrong of me to put the responsibility of handling the boat on my kids, if something should happen to me, since I don't take adequate precautions for myself.

I'll leave them on the beach and start single-handing. My consequences will be my own.
 
#24 · (Edited)
You know, the more I review the initial post, the more I understand that I am a reckless and poor seaman.
A reckless and poor seaman? C'mon that's pushing it quite a bit.

You went out, you came back - with everyone safe and no emergencies. That's pretty damn good basic seamanship. Can you be safer? Of course, who can't be? Could an accident in these conditions kill you or your crew? Sure. But that can happen at any moment - anywhere.

Seriously, do sailors ever go out in Norway? In Alaska? Do they only singlehand?

I understand prudence. And I'm all for safety and preparation. But sometimes the advocacy for it - and the critique surrounding it gets a little over the top in my opinion.

Just sayin.
 
#21 ·
Caleb - " low Is." is called " High Isl. " now and is a great spot to hit ground last year they put out markers.

Bubble - Welcome to sailnet we go of topic and others look at the negative I just wish you would stop going out and having such a good time while I keep working on my boat.
 
#23 ·
Hey Bubble my nephew is 15 and he is one of my best crew this year he sailed my boat into my slip solo. I was on the boat but didnt do anything except finish my beer. I would trust him to pick me up if I fell in. If you have a life jacket on you have more then 30 sec. out there. Life comes at you fast and those kids you have will be adults before you know it.
 
#26 · (Edited)
I'd highly recommend getting a throwing line in a bag, say 75' or so in length and a LifeSling. Both are really good ideas for anyone boating, especially in colder weather—where speed of recovering the MOB is critical.

Ideally, you will stay aboard and avoid falling in, but having the right gear in the case that you do fall in makes a huge difference. I also hope you and your crew are wearing drysuits, given the current air and water temps. A drysuit can make the difference between surviving a fall into cold water and retrieving a corpse.
 
#28 · (Edited)
JRP - I'm just saying that risk is relative. I'm not saying you're wrong - and you have every right and reason to point out the risks. Furthermore, you have WAY more experience than I, so I will always defer to your knowledge and experience.

But, based on what I've read here about Bubble's past experience on the water, in that particular area (his backyard basically), along with the conditions of the day, etc. - is he being truly "reckless" and a "poor seaman"? And isn't the answer to that question relative?

Advocating safety is NEVER wrong. Ever. But, it's equally true that every single sailor's standard of what is "acceptably" safe will be always different as well. And it's really easy to set that bar so high (especially when discussing it in a forum) that people really fear sailing...in any condition. So many things can go wrong.

Now, is it inherently dangerous to learn to sail (even on your own) in clear 50 degree weather, 1'-2' seas, and 10-15 knots? I think most would say no. So that brings us to the water temp - which seems to be the major issue here. I've been watching this fantastic video series about a guy single-handing around England in the middle of winter in a small boat - with the water frozen over in many cases. And there's been no outcry there. Again, it's relative. There are people around the world that go out and come back in these same conditions at all levels of experience. Absolute judgements are just difficult to make. And all I'm saying is that some room needs to be left for that.

I mean, what is the "acceptable" water temp for a learning sailor in the above conditions?

Let me be clear, I'm not advocating being unsafe, unprepared, or stupid by any means. Far from it. And I'm not singling you out for your caution. From everything I've read - you have nothing but the best of intentions and want to give the best possible advice to keep people safe. That's the way it should be.

I, personally, am just not as risk adverse. I think there is, and should be, some squish.

Finally, I know I'm out on a limb here, being the idiot that's arguing for risk tolerance. It's a pretty weak position when compared to absolute, impeccable standards of safety. But, I just don't think anyone, ever lives up to those in reality.
 
#29 ·
John,

You're free to point all that out. Let me clarify my "MOB" plan though. I doubt it'll change your opinion but you deserve to have all of the facts.

1. Any "plan" I had, is only good for recovering my dead body because by the time someone throws me something, and gets the boat back to me, I'm a popsicle. Even a pro would be hard-pressed to get back to me in time.

2. I have a MOB throwline. My plan for retrieving a fallen kid was NOT to release the dinghy to them. I would throw the line, a throwable PFD, and commence MOB manuvers to recover the kid. The "dinghy plan" was for MY recovery, because I don't think my kids have good enough aim with the MOB throwline.

3. I didn't clip in. I acknowledge that as Mistake #5. I have a harness but I didn't employ it.

I must ask you John, does ANY marine experience count for anything with you? Or when you learn to sail, is anything you've done in a previous life, null and void? This isn't sarcasm or a jab, I'm sincerely asking.

Do not make the mistake of thinking that my 20 years in the navy was spent in an air-conditioned compartment onboard an aircraft carrier and that I never handled a mooring line, and never saw the sea.

I wasn't perfect, and I made mistakes yesterday, but I assure you, we didn't just "jump into the boat" and go sailing. They have been driving boats since they were 8, and I have spent considerable time drilling into them the differences between sailing and motoring, and how dangerous yesterday was.

Let's just rewind a bit here John. My MOB plan isnt' what's bothering you. You feel that I didn't have any business on the water at all in January unless I was with a certified instructor. You're entitled to your opinion.
 
#36 ·
Let's just rewind a bit here John. My MOB plan isnt' what's bothering you. You feel that I didn't have any business on the water at all in January unless I was with a certified instructor. You're entitled to your opinion.
Yes, I am, but the beauty is that I get to decide what those opinions are, not you.;)

Incidentally, there probably aren't many sailing instructors that carry the liability insurance necessary for taking novice sailors out in winter. That, and their understanding from experience that doing so is inadvisable, is why you don't see sailing schools operating this time of year in these waters.

As for your MOB plan, it's no that I didn't like it, but that you didn't have one. You can scour every publication in the world, and you will not find any endorsed MOB recovery method that includes casting off the dinghy.

If you want to find out how the dinghy idea would go down, next time you're out, throw a pfd in the water while you're sailing along, wait ten seconds, then release the dinghy. Note the growing separation between the two. Retrieving them will be good practice, but while you're at it keep in mind what it would be like to swim the distance between them in water that is a hair above freezing.

Although John advocates a level of caution that I personally find stifiling
Just to clarify, the level of caution being advocated is shared by the majority of sailors in your area. If you need evidence of that, please tell me how many other boats were out sailing with you the other day? And yet, the marinas are full of boats that could be out there as readily as yours.

And let's talk about that level of caution for a moment. The recommendation is that winter sailors should be secured to the boat via harness to prevent being separated from the boat in water temps (low 30's F) that paralyze and cause cardiac arrest. The other suggestion is that novices not choose these conditions to learn to sail, when they can wait a few months and avoid these risks altogether. This is stifling? Maybe for you, but it is very conventional.

Do they still run the "Frostbite Races"?
Yes. I participated in them for years. They typically run in Nov/Dec and March. Some go all winter. Boatloads of experienced sailors surrounded by boatloads of other experienced sailors, often including a chase boat, properly equipped (per the racing rules), ready and capable of rendering assistance, but unlikely to need to because of the level of experience.

There are good reasons why you won't find any reference to "Frostbite Sailing School.":D

Look, novices make plenty of mistakes as they build up experience, it's all part of sailing. Most of those mistakes are harmless and instructive. But some that would be harmless and even humorous in warmer conditions become deadly in frigid waters. If you were out doing this in April/May/June, I'd be at the dock (or keyboard) cheering and coaching you, as I and others have done for years here at Sailnet and elsewhere.

But if I happen to offer advice on how to approach issues you've encountered, don't mistake that for encouraging you to be out learning to sail with your kids in the dead of winter. While it's apparent you've made up your mind, others read these threads and I don't want to convey a message of endorsement.

P.S. I'd be happy to lend you some harnesses for the duration of the winter, but again, don't take that as encouragement.:)
 
#30 ·
The air temp is a NON-ISSUE the water TEMP is everything in the RISK-LEVEL

Take a dive in right now and you will be LUCKY if you can even breath without a substantial FORCED effort let alone assist in your own rescue

Its GUMBY suit time right now like it or not
 
#31 ·

Hey Bubble,

I'm really jealous you got out sailing. This is what our creek looked like this weekend. When I went out to the boat I thought I was going to go sailing, and so did these guys in the photo, but none of us made it out through the ice.

It seems you have a good idea of the risks of winter boating. If one were to go overboard in these conditions, singlehanded or with novice crew, it would almost certainly be curtains for him or her. It's a risk I'm willing to take when I'm confident in the weather, boat, crew and myself. I would not be willing to take that risk if any one of those variables were unkown.

I don't think John is attacking you, and neither am I. I don't think either of us know you or much about your experience boating. But I do know that John consistently gives some of the best advice on this forum.

Scott
Gemini Catamaran Split Decision
 
#33 ·
I also think that Mr. JRP gives some of the best advice here. But it is a bit humorous that so many folks are trying to tell a guy who has spent more time on and under the water then most of us about safety on the water. You do all know that BubbleheadMd was in the navy and in particular on a submarine right? So maybe the Safety Patrol ought to lay off of a guy who could probably have been in the CG and take his posts in the manner they were intended.
Another point is that different risks are acceptable to different folks (different strokes for different folks, right?). There is a poster here who took his 24' Bristol from LI to the Chessy not long ago (Dan, I forget his screen name) and did it without even a hand held GPS which I would not have attempted by myself. Dan also spent time in the gulf of Alaska on fishing boats and was quite happy navigating without any GPS. He also made the trip at a time of year when many of have hauled out for the winter but he made it just fine and still doesn't want a GPS. I was in the chorus of the Safety Patrol when he posted about his trip but he made it just fine.
Everyone has different levels of acceptable risks.
I know that you all are trying to help but maybe BubbleheadMd already knows most everything he needs to about safety.
It was still a good story and quite reflective and unworthy of some of the knee jerk posts that have been posted here.
JMHO.
 
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