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  Topic Review (Newest First)
5 Days Ago 01:03 PM
Waterrat
Re: How "afraid" should we be of sailing?

Excellent points above gentlemen.

Sounds like we are all driven by some very basic biological survival needs. With thought and reflection we can over come and focus our basic coding. The brains malleability is quite amazing.

I was having a conversation the other day with family. My step mother needed to book all lodging and have every location planned before traveling. My wife and I might have the first night book depending on arrival. I will have a list of ideas but like to see where the adventure takes us. Not booking anything with fluid plan is crazy to her as booking and planning everything. Neither way is wrong but both ways overcome each of our fears.

I have found that when my life is simple and I have less stuff I am more care free and happier. Maybe all those monks are on to something. Well minus the dogma and what not.
5 Days Ago 11:27 AM
Don0190
Re: How "afraid" should we be of sailing?

I get boat stuff when I decide I want them more than the money it takes to have them. I just don't understand why it needs to more complicated than that.

Also it doesn't matter to me if others don't what the same things on their boat as I want on mine.
5 Days Ago 10:12 AM
MikeOReilly
Re: How "afraid" should we be of sailing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Mike you speak to a larger issue. The source of much contention here and probably the most common reason some get banned, some give up cruising and others flourish
Remember the old Rolling Stones song " you can't always get what you want"? Well my dad was an advertising exec and had a permutation of that.. He said when selling anything even a toothbrush you sell to what they want ( even if you create that want) not what they need. Problem for sailors is they don't know what they need until after they been actively cruising for awhile and due to economics many decisions are irreversible. ...

Point I'm trying to make is being dogmatic about any of this stuff is foolish. Any decision you make will be great in one situation and stupid in another. Effort should be spent in understanding the choices and trying to differentiate between wants and needs. That's the best you can do.
Yes, wants vs needs. We're trained in our consumerist society (desparately trying not to sound political here) to pursue wants. It's how our economy works now, so we're all surrounded by the messages to constantly acquire more. And you're so right about not really knowing what we need until we're off the dock for a while. It's why I usual answer those novice "I'm just starting, what should I do?" posts with some version of get a solid but older 25-32 foot boat and go cruising for a while. Only then will you start to understand what your actual needs are.

Unless resources are very large, most of us can't afford all our wants. But we can likely get all our needs (cue Rolling Stones music...). But you are Robert are so right ... my needs are not the same as yours. Learning what each of us needs is an individual task, but for most of us it also involves serious de-programming from our culture of more, More, MORE!

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
...We are on our 4th cruising boat and still don't have it nailed but closer. ... There are very good reasons why experienced cruisers make the choices they do and those reasons vary a great deal. There are no best choices out there for everyone, it's just the nature of the beast.
Good point. Needs are different from person to person, but also change over time, and can depend on the place. All we can do is keep trying to learn. And I would say, look with great scepticism at every new "must have" tool that comes along. Especially ones wrapped up in the profit motive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
If you can keep an open mind (world's most difficult task) and try to put yourself in the other persons shoes you just may begin to understand why they have different thoughts than yours and why in their world those thoughts are just as legitimate.
Ah, now you hit on the hardest thing to do. Research shows humans have a hard time keeping an open mind. It's why our sports and our politics can become so brutal. We are tribal people who, once we've picked a team, or made a choice, find it very difficult to seriously consider the other side. It can be done with effort and practice (although I'm not very good at it )
5 Days Ago 08:22 AM
robert sailor
Re: How "afraid" should we be of sailing?

Good post. My first year cruising was an eye opener, very sweet sailing boat that was constantly breaking down. One day I was aboard a new friends steel boat with this ungainly looking windless (mine had just broken down)and asked him how many years it had been working well. He responded that it had always worked. All I could think about after that was how a practical boat was superior to a pretty boat when it came to cruising. We are on our 4th cruising boat and still don't have it nailed but closer. Over the years you get very opinionated and justly so as you have earned your opinion, it wasn't developed by Google it was developed by experience. Having said that, it's only your experience and may or may not be the same as other long time cruisers although you normally tend to share some similar opinions. There are very good reasons why experienced cruisers make the choices they do and those reasons vary a great deal. There are no best choices out there for everyone, it's just the nature of the beast. If you can keep an open mind (world's most difficult task) and try to put yourself in the other persons shoes you just may begin to understand why they have different thoughts than yours and why in their world those thoughts are just as legitimate. It's these differences that make these forums as interesting as they are from time to time. It's easy to have a discussion with experienced cruisers on topics of disagreement, almost impossible having the same discussion with an inexperienced Goggle master.
5 Days Ago 07:49 AM
outbound
Re: How "afraid" should we be of sailing?

Mike you speak to a larger issue. The source of much contention here and probably the most common reason some get banned, some give up cruising and others flourish
Remember the old Rolling Stones song " you can't always get what you want"? Well my dad was an advertising exec and had a permutation of that.. He said when selling anything even a toothbrush you sell to what they want ( even if you create that want) not what they need. Problem for sailors is they don't know what they need until after they been actively cruising for awhile and due to economics many decisions are irreversible. They also don't know what they want until they've been cruising for awhile as the experience of cruising makes that a continuously moving target. To confound things further features which are needs not just wants in one sphere conflict with needs in another.
Examples-
Mono v. multi- blue water multis ( Outremer, Catana, Rapido etc.) win out on speed and space. Cruising the world great. Cruising highly populated areas not so much. Dockage, hauls, even anchorage becomes problematic. Yes you leave the world of draft restriction to enter the world of space restriction. T docks are your friend. Have friends who owned a small Freedom. They go sailing for an hour or two at the drop of a hat. Go off cruising New England with a direction in mind not a destination. They kept the freedom leaving it on the hard and bought a 52' cf cat. Off to the carribean. Now back and the boat rarely leaves the dock. To much work to day sail. To scary to dock in a wind.
Same applies with old and new- old maybe be tried and true. Old may be beautiful. But old is slow. At any size has age decreases PHRF numbers fall. This is of little concern coastal cruising if you have no schedule demands or if you are long term cruising with two but if you need space to live or need three to allow sleep for passage that 125/d v. 175-200/d takes on a different meaning on multiple levels.
Then again complex v. simple- no genset, no watermaking, no AP, no AC etc. less to break and maintain. But at what point do you start to miss the house where these functions were assumed.
Point I'm trying to make is being dogmatic about any of this stuff is foolish. Any decision you make will be great in one situation and stupid in another. Effort should be spent in understanding the choices and trying to differentiate between wants and needs. That's the best you can do.
6 Days Ago 09:56 PM
MikeOReilly
Re: How "afraid" should we be of sailing?

I really appreciate the thoughtful discussion. Yes ... finding the right balance between security and freedom seems to be the fulcrum that these discussions teeter on. We all have different needs, different experiences, different abilities. There is no right answer for everyone, and thank Dog for that!

Some people chase security to the detriment of freedom. In our culture and in the cruising context, this could mean they may work too long to afford the big boat, all the best tools, and the perfect pension. Retirement delivers freedom, but at the cost of years of life.

Others take the view that everything will always work out for the best. They leap without looking, and sometimes lose big time when they learn the Universe doesn't really care about them.

I think you guys are right. It's about balance, and finding what is right for you. Look at the situation. Look at the data. Make the best choice -- for you.

At a recent anchorage we made fast friends with two separate couples. One was on a solid, simple and beautiful good old boat. The other was on a new, tough, complex new boat. One was smaller than us, the other larger. The smaller boat housed an older couple who had cruised extensively. The other was planning to do the same (and I believe they will make it). One boat had all the safety and security systems one could dream of -- in duplicate. The other was simple and solid, but lacked much of the safety gear found on our other friends' boat.

Neither are Right, with capital "R". Both are right for themselves.
6 Days Ago 08:01 PM
outbound
Re: How "afraid" should we be of sailing?

Last two posts are a honest assessment of this issue. At the end of the day you must neither have a rose colored glasses view nor the sky is falling view and make the personal decision of what's right for you. To the extent we can allow the continuance of the few personal freedoms we have remaining agree this should not be mandatory. Also agree discussions are helpful when educational causing us to be aware of pitfalls or concerns that weren't on our radar. Hopefully not overly pedantic or evangelical. I continue to grow in my respect for others who present thinking not congruent to my own on this site. Thank you M&M.
Going through the registrations and contact lists on the safety gear plbs/epirbs etc. tonight. There's a point you just have to stop. Waste of time/money/effort. You can spend money on that stuff or the boat. But think it's foolish to not to at least think about where that point is for you. I stopped at one each for wife/me and the big one for the boat. Others have none or one in raft, one in boat and one for the 4-6 harnesses they carry. View insurance the same way. Don't think none is a great idea. See no reason for eight. But that's my choice. It may not be yours but it doesn't make you a bad person.
6 Days Ago 07:37 PM
robert sailor
Re: How "afraid" should we be of sailing?

Interesting subject. I think you can rationalize almost any scenario where you don't have enough insurance. If your boat catches on fire in a large marina you might need tens of millions in liability which I'm sure none of us carries.. Personally i think all c ruisers should carry a reasonable amount of liability insurance, its not that expensive and odds are you will never need it. Given a choice I would not anchor on top of a really expensive yacht. There are sailors out here that don't have a pocket to piss in and don't carry any liability insurance, which is their choice off course, you can sometimes tell by the boat and they are best avoided. The cruising community is no different than other communities, there are always outliers and after all freedom is supposed to be a big part of this lifestyle.. The problem is that many folks feel a need to evangelize their decisions as correct and look down on others that don't share their world view, kinda like religion.
6 Days Ago 06:57 PM
Waterrat
Re: How "afraid" should we be of sailing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Unfortunately sailing and cruising does incur risk. I'm not wealthy to the degree I can dismiss the risks. Risk is higher for someone like me where there's no longer an income coming in and one of my major assets is my boat. If I injure a multimillion dollar boat or even my own and have to pay for losses out of my pocket I'm broke. The dream is over and the quality of life even if returning to land would be miserable. Yes there are some with greater resources where this is not a concern. But think for 99.9% of us the reality is it is a concern. Perhaps a few can self insure either because of a sustained income stream or the value of their vessel is such its loss can be absorbed or they are so wealthy it doesn't matter. But if you have a pot to pee in you stand to lose it from the other guys claim. Regardless if the pot is old rusty iron ( mine) or a beautiful porcelain antique chamber pot ( >1%ers).
Yes this is personal. But not at the level one would think at first glance. Rather, other than the fortunate few it effects us all.

I know that when I pay insurance it is for my own protection of assets, and potential liability. My choice and my risk tolerance compel me to purchase insurance. I don't care if others buy it or not. Would you propose boat insurance be required similar to auto insurance? I understand marinas requiring it. Maybe it is my Libertarian part of me that says to each their own.

(I am not a Libertarian.)
6 Days Ago 06:47 PM
Waterrat
Re: How "afraid" should we be of sailing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeOReilly View Post
Yes, exactly. We're also, not just to register fear, but to lean towards false positives rather than false negatives. In other words, our fear reaction is triggered easily, while our "just chill" reaction comes in much slower, and much less. It makes perfect sense when you're wondering if that rustle is a tiger, or just the wind. Those who were more sanguine about it did not pass on their genes.

This highly sensitized fear reaction is well understood, and exploited all the time in our modern world. Advertisers and politicians understand it well. So does the media ("if it bleeds, in leads") and religions. Those who want to sell us stuff, from the latest drug to the newest alarm systems, all prey on this fear reaction. And why not? It works!

I can think of a lot of reasons why not to use fear. The problem is the goal. The goal is always about money. If that is the goal then yes it makes sense. USA health care is partially so expensive because the goal is not health it is to make money. I am not saying no one shouldn't make money just that it should not be the goal.
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