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Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest > General Discussion (sailing related) > The Sailing Gods looked down on us today...
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Thread: The Sailing Gods looked down on us today... Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
04-20-2006 01:26 PM
TalbotUK
Quote:
In the last photo you can tell that it was not the strut that broke first
Curious. Looking at your pictures and the damage. I would have said exactly the opposite. Furthermore, It is a shame that your phots dont have a close up of the broken part of the strut, but from what I can see, it appears to have fractured. If the prop had gone first, I would expect to see more evidence of bending before breaking on the strut.

If I was inspecting this, I would have written it down as a strut failure of the bracket allowing the propshaft to whirl around resulting in the prop hitting the bottom, and with sufficient force to damage the prop blade.

BTW I reckon you are very very lucky not to have lost the boat either by the prop going right through the bottom, or the total failure of the shaft seal.
04-20-2006 11:50 AM
Fstbttms
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sailormon6
It seems to me there's a whole lot of well-intentioned but not very helpful speculation going on here by people who are trying to analyze the damage by looking at the posted photos. To support their conclusions, they assume that the owners neglected the maintenance of their boat, and that the technicians who worked on it didn't know what they're doing. Now they're debating among themselves the type and manner of fastenings they think were used by the maunfacturer. They want to be helpful, but you just can't do a serious analysis like this over the internet.
To be fair, I don't think LaLeLu came here with this story looking for answers. She seemed quite certain that what she believed to be the circumstances that caused the prop & strut failure were the only possible explanation. But to some of us, that explanation just didn't hold water (no pun intended.) I don't believe anybody accused her of neglecting proper maintenance and if anything, I think our goal here was to simply alert her to the possibility that her assumptions about the incident might not be correct. In that respect I think this discussion has been valuable (although I suspect LaLeLu does not see it that way.)

But you are right, the real answers will lie with qualified technicians who will do hands-on inspections and tests.
04-20-2006 11:34 AM
haffiman37
Quote:
analyze the damage by looking at the posted photos To support their conclusions
,
It looks to me that the majority of us who have studied the photoes somewhat disagree whith the owner of the reason to the breakdown. This is based on experience with amongst other incidents similar to this. Some things are better evaluated 'at distance' without influence of the owner around. Are we competent 'qualified experts' - not for us to tell, but You should notice that some of us have been quite some time in the business, some still are.
Quote:
they assume that the owners neglected the maintenance of their boat, and that the technicians who worked on it didn't know what they're doing.
Nobody have accused anybody of anything, read my previous post:' I do not accuse You of anything', unless You considder a question about service for an accusation. The reason for the question was to eliminate a possibility! The question would sooner or later have been forwarded by Autoprop if it was to go to court.

Quote:
Now they're debating among themselves the type and manner of fastenings they think were used by the maunfacturer.
This is quite essential as design and use of material may have weakened the questioned part. The only question that have been made was if it is the original parts used or have they been replaced.

Quote:
but you just can't do a serious analysis like this over the internet
.

What do You use the internet for? I do it to collect information and in forums like this discuss relevant issues. What better place can we find the info we seek? We are not in a court of law to pass centence over something, we are discussing an incident which was brought to us by the original poster. If the poster do not like our conclusion it is sad, but we did not start it. What I did originally was to point to some 'clues' that went in another direction and it seems some more agreed to it.

Quote:
This is not the way to get the reliable answers you want and need, and it's only contributing to your frustration. You need to have the damage examined up close by a qualified expert, who can do whatever testing or analysis may be necessary, and can ascertain what fastenings were actually used by the builder without relying on vague memory, and determine whether the fastenings were changed by a technician. In short, you need a reliable, court-admissible analysis by a qualified expert, that tells you (1) whether the damage was someone's fault other than your own, and (2) that is sufficiently persuasive to prevail over the opposition's expert opinion to the contrary. You have to be prepared for the possibility that he might not be able to pin the responsibility on someone else. Then, armed with that analysis, your attorney can attempt to negotiate a reasonable settlement of your claim with the responsible party. Failing that, there's always court.
I guess this one is for LaLeLu, but I would like to defend her(?) for posting in the forum. Hopefully the different posters have been able to help her with what issues to furter examine and which to eliminate. Hopefully it may have put her on the right track, sueing the wrong company/person is not a smart thing to do. She has got some inputs from the net,we in the 'group' have had an educating discussion, at least me!
04-20-2006 10:06 AM
Sailormon6 It seems to me there's a whole lot of well-intentioned but not very helpful speculation going on here by people who are trying to analyze the damage by looking at the posted photos. To support their conclusions, they assume that the owners neglected the maintenance of their boat, and that the technicians who worked on it didn't know what they're doing. Now they're debating among themselves the type and manner of fastenings they think were used by the maunfacturer. They want to be helpful, but you just can't do a serious analysis like this over the internet.

This is not the way to get the reliable answers you want and need, and it's only contributing to your frustration. You need to have the damage examined up close by a qualified expert, who can do whatever testing or analysis may be necessary, and can ascertain what fastenings were actually used by the builder without relying on vague memory, and determine whether the fastenings were changed by a technician. In short, you need a reliable, court-admissible analysis by a qualified expert, that tells you (1) whether the damage was someone's fault other than your own, and (2) that is sufficiently persuasive to prevail over the opposition's expert opinion to the contrary. You have to be prepared for the possibility that he might not be able to pin the responsibility on someone else. Then, armed with that analysis, your attorney can attempt to negotiate a reasonable settlement of your claim with the responsible party. Failing that, there's always court.

Good luck!
04-20-2006 03:19 AM
haffiman37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fstbttms
This is the standard Caliber strut/bolt/nut configuration. At least on every one I've ever seen.
In that case and if the strut itself and the bolt is original Caliber may have made a 'time bomb'.
Thanks for the info.
04-20-2006 03:00 AM
Fstbttms
Quote:
Originally Posted by haffiman37
The bolt in the strut bracket does not seem to be the original one.
This is the standard Caliber strut/bolt/nut configuration. At least on every one I've ever seen.

04-20-2006 12:39 AM
haffiman37 LaLeLu:
Even if You do not seem to be the most friendly one when people are trying to help You with the problem here is some further suggestions about 'who is to blame'.
The bolt in the strut bracket does not seem to be the original one. That kind of bracket ususally have a counter sunk screw and threads in one half of the bracet. The screw is secured with loc-tite and no counter nut on the outside. When Your cutlass bearing was changed probably the mechanic removed the bracket instead of pulling the shaft. He may have ruined the orginal screw and treads and replaced the screw with the bolt secure with 2 nuts! This added amount of sst and even change of alloy in the screw may have encreased the speed of corrosion in the bracket itself.
However the bottom line is still that I think the bracket broke, but I have the feeling that either the boatbuilder or Autoprop may be blamed. The above may even explain why Caliber never has had a bracket failure!
04-18-2006 11:16 PM
Faster Sorry, Susan, I sympathize with your situation whatever the cause.
But it looks to me like there's at least an even chance that the strut went first. Without support the shaft would certainly flail around enough to reduce the clearance to allow a glancing blow, which would be bad news for the first blade to hit. The damage apparent at the stern tube in the downward direction is further evidence of a flailing shaft, but the chicken or the egg debate can crop its ugly head here too.
Can't say I'm crazy about that strut design, the upper portion creates a real "hard point" where any vibration/stress could lead to weakening that would be very hard to spot with the end result a sudden failure that may have occurred.
Having said that, and having experienced a one-blade-open folder there's no question that it can produce unbelievable vibrations and imbalance and have no problem imagining such a failure tear out a strut, especially a poorly designed one.(and especially at speed)
The real problem is going to be getting an accurate determination of what really happened with all the fingerpointing going on.
04-18-2006 10:26 PM
haffiman37
Quote:
The Autoprop should be re-greased once every two years or if more convenient during your annual haul out.
Did You re-grease it at the haul out or was it not 'convenient'?

It would be interesting , just for the record, if You could post ,just copy and paste,the comments/replies from:

1: The surveyor that did the 'very-very very' survey last year.
2: Autoprop
3: Caliber

It may help other to avoid such an incident.
04-18-2006 06:44 PM
jared My gut feeling is that throwing a prop blade should NOT be able to generate enough force to shear a strut and cause the rest of that damage. Just as a matter of physics.

And, if a blade was thrown "totally and immediately" clear by a complete (rather than gradual) failure of the pin holding it in, I would expect the flowing water and forces on it to throw it well aft before it impacted. Seeing it directly above the normal position makes me think it was still on the shaft when it hit.

Which lead to me wonder, since the boat was HAULED two months ago, perhaps the problem is that the slings were misplaced, something caught on the shaft, and snapped or damaged the strut at that time. Now, two months later, the strut finally failed as a result of a slightly bent shaft or simply two months of the damage going further.

There are folks who can examine the damage at the prop and the strut, and tell from the physical properties of the breaks how they happened. Might be worth taking a close look at that strut, to see if it was stressed during the haul.
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